Cueto to Sox (Official)

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

6 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

I prefer Kopech over Cease. TJS and the ensuing layoff set Kopech back but he’s a better pitcher than Cease and I don’t think he will melt down mentally in big situations like we have seen so many times in the past with Cease.

I am quite literally amazed anyone can say that. Cease is on an upward growth path the many pitchers go through. If he continues on that path he can indeed become Cy Young worthy.

This is starting to sound like the expectations placed on Vaughn last year. Different past circumstances surrounding them but still in their very 1st time logging serious time in their positions in MLB.

[caulfield12]

4 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

And they don’t need to. Why do they need to replicate Rodon’s regular season from last season for the team to be successful this season? Rodon sucked when the Sox needed him most at the end of the season. Even if Kopech is worse during the regular season but better than Rodon in the postseason (low bar I know), that’s a win.

All of the pitchers but Tepera sucked... pretty much. Giolito wasn't his usual self either, compared to his A's playoff start.  Unsurprising, though, when you compare the A's and Astros lineups 1-9. 

[Greg Hibbard]

Honestly this discussion about Cueto devolving into who is replacing Rodon is just exhausting.

Take Rodon’s 5 wins away from the club last year and we still win the division by 8 games. We also still lose the ALDS because we didn’t have a real right fielder at times, our aces Lynn and Gio got lit up, our lineup got owned, and our relievers got exposed for not being able to hold runners on whatsoever. Rodon at full May strength would not have won us that series. 

In 2022, even if Kopech pitches at just a serviceable level and we get anything out of Keuchel and Cueto, we still probably win the division by several games. That’s not the problem.

The problem is the same things we faced in the postseason last year. We need to add an elite pitcher and a power LH bat at the deadline from teams dumping salary and stack this team with real players. This lineup needs to be downright scary with no question marks and we need to sort out three elite starters from a field of 8ish.
 

 

[caulfield12]

Just now, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

I am quite literally amazed anyone can say that. Cease is on an upward growth path the many pitchers go through. If he continues on that path he can indeed become Cy Young worthy.

This is starting to sound like the expectations placed on Vaughn last year. Different past circumstances surrounding them but still in their very 1st time logging serious time in their positions in MLB.

Not only that, but Kopech missed so much time in the trenches the last 2-3 seasons while Cease was battling his behind off to become a better pitcher.  We are expecting far too much out of Kopech this season IMO. 

[caulfield12]

2 minutes ago, Greg Hibbard said:

Honestly this discussion about Cueto devolving into who is replacing Rodon is just exhausting.

Take Rodon’s 5 wins away from the club last year and we still win the division by 8 games. We also still lose the ALDS because we didn’t have a real right fielder at times, our aces Lynn and Gio got lit up, our lineup got owned, and our relievers got exposed for not being able to hold runners on whatsoever. Rodon at full May strength would not have won us that series. 

In 2022, even if Kopech pitches at just a serviceable level and we get anything out of Keuchel and Cueto, we still probably win the division by several games. That’s not the problem.

The problem is the same things we faced in the postseason last year. We need to add an elite pitcher and a power LH bat at the deadline from teams dumping salary and stack this team with real players. This lineup needs to be downright scary with no question marks and we need to sort out three elite starters from a field of 8ish.
 

 

We're going to be quite fortunate to have ONE elite starter at the rate we're going.  But who knows, maybe a fresh-armed Lynn will end up being a blessing in disguise. 

And still not seeing an easy path towards acquiring an ACE at the trade deadline due to our payroll and dearth of minor league impact talent. 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

12 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

The fun part is I don't think either will bea  5 WAR player this year.

Probably not but Rodon's production still needed to be replaced, not just another body thrown at it, if you are genuinely serious about a championship quality rotation. You're not exactly going out on a limb with that prediction.

[ptatc]

1 hour ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Probably not but Rodon's production still needed to be replaced, not just another body thrown at it, if you are genuinely serious about a championship quality rotation. You're not exactly going out on a limb with that prediction.

More of a focus than this is the performance in playoffs. The pitching staff as a whole was awful. Is there something they can do to put the staff in a better position for optimal performance in the playoffs?

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

2 minutes ago, ptatc said:

More of a focus than this is the performance in playoffs. The pitching staff as a whole was awful. Is there something they can do to put the staff in a better position for optimal performance in the playoffs?

Didn't you ask me this before ? I would've felt better if they had resigned Rodon and Cease continued on his upward path and Kopech was added to the starting rotation depth to replace Keuchel if he faltered again. Kopech as long relief/ occasional starter in a bigger role than last year but a role the Sox could manage his innings more effectively.

I'm worried that Kopech will not have enough left in the tank and/or not be effective enough to be counted on in the playoffs. It's not impossible that the Sox do a good job of keeping him fresh and he surpasses my expectations of him in his ability to thrust himself in a top 3 starter for the playoffs. It's a double edge sword that needs both edges to be sharp.

[pcq]

Must give props to Cade McClure with his one-hit outing (and a bunch of walks) over 4 2/3 last night in Charlotte's opener. I assume important people will be monitoring his progress.

I refuse to believe the Sox would employ Velasquez for the home opener but we may see rain Friday in Detroit. Cubs-Sox could get hit with the same rainy weather front Thur-Fri according to the Fox weather bunny.

[Balta1701]

17 minutes ago, ptatc said:

More of a focus than this is the performance in playoffs. The pitching staff as a whole was awful. Is there something they can do to put the staff in a better position for optimal performance in the playoffs?

Yes. Better defensive positioning. No confusing substitutions that make the team worse on defense. Pull people early, not when it’s too late and they’re out of gas. Don’t have your pitchers do things they were really bad at in the regular season or never did during the regular season at all.

All coaching things.

[ptatc]

6 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Didn't you ask me this before ? I would've felt better if they had resigned Rodon and Cease continued on his upward path and Kopech was added to the starting rotation depth to replace Keuchel if he faltered again. Kopech as long relief/ occasional starter in a bigger role than last year but a role the Sox could manage his innings more effectively.

I'm worried that Kopech will not have enough left in the tank and/or not be effective enough to be counted on in the playoffs. It's not impossible that the Sox do a good job of keeping him fresh and he surpasses my expectations of him in his ability to thrust himself in a top 3 starter for the playoffs. It's a double edge sword that needs both edges to be sharp.

It wasn't so much of a question as it is a comment. Because I'm not sure what they need to do other than monitor innings and make sure they are ready. 

I'm in the camp of not trusting Rodon to be available for the postseason. But they need to make sure their starters are prepared for the postseason. 

[ptatc]

1 minute ago, Balta1701 said:

Yes. Better defensive positioning. No confusing substitutions that make the team worse on defense. Pull people early, not when it’s too late and they’re out of gas. Don’t have your pitchers do things they were really bad at in the regular season or never did during the regular season at all.

All coaching things.

Some of this depends on defense vs. offense. Do they sit Grandal for poor defense. Same with Jimenez. That's losing a ton of offense.

Can they afford to pull a pitcher early with who is available?

I think it's more important for good coaching decisions during the season to make sure the pitchers are ready for the postseason. The pitchers ready for the postseason may dictate if someone can be pulled early in the postseason game.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

1 hour ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Is this definition in the dictionary ? Because I don't see it that way, that's how it's debatable. See me at the end of the year when he produces 5 WAR all by himself. Saying Rodon was God awful in the playoffs is disingenuous. We all knew he wasn't the same pitcher in the 2nd half as the 1st half but chances were he wasn't going to be able to pitch in the playoffs anyway because of his lack of innings the previous 2 years. Let's hope the Sox hierarchy is a little more careful with Kopech.

Yes, it is the definition because the other 4 starters are the same as last season and the only thing that changed was Rodon/Kopech. You are debating whether Kopech will provide the same production as Rodon. That’s a different argument. You are convinced he won’t but he very well could. We simply do not know. What we do know is that Kopech replaced Rodon in the rotation and I’m sure hoping he’s better than Rodon was in the postseason.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

27 minutes ago, ptatc said:

More of a focus than this is the performance in playoffs. The pitching staff as a whole was awful. Is there something they can do to put the staff in a better position for optimal performance in the playoffs?

And let’s not pretend like Rodon was some kind of workhorse last year. He threw 132 regular season innings and only lasted 2.2 innings in his postseason start. Even on an innings limit, I’m hoping Kopech can provide that much this season.

[pcq]

8 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Yes. Better defensive positioning. No confusing substitutions that make the team worse on defense. Pull people early, not when it’s too late and they’re out of gas. Don’t have your pitchers do things they were really bad at in the regular season or never did during the regular season at all.

All coaching things.

So many times I saw TA shading toward 3B and waving at grounders well to his left. Meanwhile half the time our guys hit grounders up the middle there is a guy with a glove standing by 2B.

[Harold's Leg Lift]

5 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

And let’s not pretend like Rodon was some kind of workhorse last year. He threw 132 regular season innings and only lasted 2.2 innings in his postseason start. Even on an innings limit, I’m hoping Kopech can provide that much this season.

Yep.  He worked harder in the off season than he's ever worked in his life and all he could get out of his arm was 24 starts and 132 innings.  

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

31 minutes ago, ptatc said:

It wasn't so much of a question as it is a comment. Because I'm not sure what they need to do other than monitor innings and make sure they are ready. 

I'm in the camp of not trusting Rodon to be available for the postseason. But they need to make sure their starters are prepared for the postseason. 

I understand your position on Rodon as long as you understand mine.

I never expected the Sox to sign anyone for big money this off season. That has proven true. However, I did expect a signing in the near $50M range for a few years and was hoping it would be a starting pitcher.

  Rodon, now with very productive innings from 2021 under his belt, seemed like as good choice as any to fill his departure by signing him again and doing a better job of limiting his inning than last year. You get a high quality starting pitcher in that price range and only 2 years because of his unreliable injury history. That's the chance you might have to take given that anyone on a lengthy expensive contract was out for RF, SP and 2nd base.

The Giants already look like they are treating him better than the Sox did. Last year in ST the Sox gave him 13.2 IP, the Giants so far just 6.2 IP . I would imagine the Giants also pitch him less innings in the 1st half than the Sox did even though with the Sox he was coming off 2 years of barely pitching and with the Giants he now has 132.2 IP under his belt from 2021.

Edited April 6, 2022 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[raBBit]

3 minutes ago, Harold's Leg Lift said:

Yep.  He worked harder in the off season than he's ever worked in his life and all he could get out of his arm was 24 starts and 132 innings.  

I know Rodon has historically been a baseball player during the season months and a hunter/video game player in the offseason but he did have legitimate injuries and combined for 41 innings in 2019 and 2020. Expecting him to bounce back from that, even with a renewed work ethic and rapport with Katz, and throw 32 starts with 200 innings pitch is unreasonable. 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

11 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

And let’s not pretend like Rodon was some kind of workhorse last year. He threw 132 regular season innings and only lasted 2.2 innings in his postseason start. Even on an innings limit, I’m hoping Kopech can provide that much this season.

Again disingenuous, you're pretending or implying he should have been a workhorse . The only way he could have been a good starter in the playoffs was if the Sox had managed his innings better after 2 straight years of not pitching. Kopech has some advantage in that he pitched 69 innings last year. His disadvantage is he has the same people handling him as Rodon last year and his total lack of big league starting experience.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

8 minutes ago, Harold's Leg Lift said:

Yep.  He worked harder in the off season than he's ever worked in his life and all he could get out of his arm was 24 starts and 132 innings.  

I know Kopech comes with uncertainties as well but I believe there’s a better than slight chance he outperforms Rodon this season. 

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

Just now, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Again disingenuous, you're pretending or implying he should have been a workhorse . The only way he could have been a good starter in the playoffs was if the Sox had managed his innings better after 2 straight years of not pitching. Kopech has some advantage in that he pitched 69 innings last year. His disadvantage is he has the same people handling him as Rodon last year and his total lack of big league starting experience.

You’re the one arguing Kopech has no chance of replacing Rodon’s 2021 production. I don’t agree. I absolutely think he’s capable of giving 135 innings of sub 3 ERA ball this season. I also think he will perform better than Rodon did in his playoff start. Again, since you’re arguing we need to replace Rodon’s production in the rotation that also includes the playoffs.

[Harold's Leg Lift]

7 minutes ago, raBBit said:

I know Rodon has historically been a baseball player during the season months and a hunter/video game player in the offseason but he did have legitimate injuries and combined for 41 innings in 2019 and 2020. Expecting him to bounce back from that, even with a renewed work ethic and rapport with Katz, and throw 32 starts with 200 innings pitch is unreasonable. 

The legitimate injuries is why they only paid him $3M last year and didn't want to risk paying him $18M+ this season. 

[ptatc]

14 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

I understand your position on Rodon as long as you understand mine.

I never expected the Sox to sign anyone for big money this off season. That has proven true. However, I did expect a signing in the near $50M range for a few years and was hoping it would be a starting pitcher.

  Rodon, now with very productive innings from 2021 under his belt, seemed like as good choice as any to fill his departure by signing him again and doing a better job of limiting his inning than last year. You get a high quality starting pitcher in that price range and only 2 years because of his unreliable injury history. That's the chance you might have to take given that anyone on a lengthy expensive contract was out for RF, SP and 2nd base.

The Giants already look like they are treating him better than the Sox did. Last year in ST the Sox gave him 13.2 IP, the Giants so far just 6.2 IP . I would imagine the Giants also pitch him less innings in the 1st half than the Sox did even though with the Sox he was coming off 2 years of barely pitching and with the Giants he now has 132.2 IP under his belt from 2021.

I understand it. And it could very well be true. I just wouldn't take that chance. History us not on his side. 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

Just now, ptatc said:

I understand it. And it could very well be true. I just wouldn't take that chance. History us not on his side. 

Then you tell me what the Sox should have done to replace Rodon's production and Keuchel's downfall and keep in mind that a big contract was out of the question.

[ptatc]

7 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

You’re the one arguing Kopech has no chance of replacing Rodon’s 2021 production. I don’t agree. I absolutely think he’s capable of giving 135 innings of sub 3 ERA ball this season. I also think he will perform better than Rodon did in his playoff start. Again, since you’re arguing we need to replace Rodon’s production in the rotation that also includes the playoffs.

I agree with the overall premise except for the 135 innings. His limit will probably be closer to 120 due to his lack of innings over the past few years. If he pitches 135 he will be useless at the end of those. They need him for the playoffs.