Fire Chris Getz

[caulfield12]

11 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

Teel was one of Boston's "big 4", and by July, Montgomery would have been one of Boston's "big 5". I am calling the return "great", so you can quote me in your next argument over semantics. 

The mob on this site is predisposed to see any move in a bad light. People complained about obtaining a catcher "because we already have one in the system". 

I don't generally get into conversations with a group of GMs, and I'm guessing you don't either. I suppose maybe one of those top prospects would have been available had Crochet already been signed to that sweet extension by the White Sox, but Crochet still carried a level of injury risk that normal 1:1 aces don't.

We have no way of knowing that's true about Braden...just like you had no way of knowing Colson Montgomery would start falling off Top 100 lists by mid April.

Just like Kristian Campbell is the first fourth rounder to ever receive a massive extension before stepping foot on a big league field for more than ten days...shouldn't every team have drafted him before that if they were as good at identifying talent as Boston??  

In fact, no second or third rounder has ever gotten such an early extension, either.

[WestEddy]

10 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

We have no way of knowing that's true about Braden...just like you had no way of knowing Colson Montgomery would start falling off Top 100 lists by mid April.

Just like Kristian Campbell is the first fourth rounder to ever receive a massive extension before stepping foot on a big league field for more than ten days...shouldn't every team have drafted him before that if they were as good at identifying talent as Boston??  

In fact, no second or third rounder has ever gotten such an early extension, either.

And you have no way of knowing how much WAR Crochet and the return prospects will put up regularly, but you still project. Yes, I agree with you that every team would have probably drafted great players if they knew those players would be better than the actual players they drafted. I certainly would have played winning lottery numbers if I was assured they were winners ahead of time. Not sure where you're going with this...

[Kyyle23]

Everyone watch out for the scary mob 

[caulfield12]

1 hour ago, WestEddy said:

And you have no way of knowing how much WAR Crochet and the return prospects will put up regularly, but you still project. Yes, I agree with you that every team would have probably drafted great players if they knew those players would be better than the actual players they drafted. I certainly would have played winning lottery numbers if I was assured they were winners ahead of time. Not sure where you're going with this...

So let's give the Crochet trade until the end of the year before jumping to declare it great, fair value or disappointing.

Of course, it will likely take 3-5 years or longer to determine.

[WestEddy]

7 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

So let's give the Crochet trade until the end of the year before jumping to declare it great, fair value or disappointing.

Of course, it will likely take 3-5 years or longer to determine.

At the time of the trade, it was a very good return. 2 recent first rounders and 2 more interesting prospects with multiple tools. Crochet was a great starting pitcher with a long injury history and a short history of starting. He only had 2 years of control at arbitration rates.  We don't need to flood the zone with "ho-hum" for 5 years until we get to rebut that. 

[caulfield12]

10 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

At the time of the trade, it was a very good return. 2 recent first rounders and 2 more interesting prospects with multiple tools. Crochet was a great starting pitcher with a long injury history and a short history of starting. He only had 2 years of control at arbitration rates.  We don't need to flood the zone with "ho-hum" for 5 years until we get to rebut that. 

Mid and small market teams that generally trade away future Cy Young winners or MVP's like Mookie Betts for financial reasons rarely end up winning those trades...

[T R U]

20 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

At the time of the trade, it was a very good return. 2 recent first rounders and 2 more interesting prospects with multiple tools. Crochet was a great starting pitcher with a long injury history and a short history of starting. He only had 2 years of control at arbitration rates.  We don't need to flood the zone with "ho-hum" for 5 years until we get to rebut that. 

I really don't think you could have asked for a better return than what we got. 

This trade you can hang your hat on now I think. The only thing that would sour it is if, for some reason, Teel, Meidroth, Montgomery all completely flame out which would just be unfortunate.

The Cease trade is the one where, hopefully, in 2-3 years were saying "Ok, we actually did pretty good here". 

[southsider2k5]

8 minutes ago, T R U said:

I really don't think you could have asked for a better return than what we got. 

This trade you can hang your hat on now I think. The only thing that would sour it is if, for some reason, Teel, Meidroth, Montgomery all completely flame out which would just be unfortunate.

The Cease trade is the one where, hopefully, in 2-3 years were saying "Ok, we actually did pretty good here". 

If we don't get high level starters out of both Teel and Montgomery, we are in huge trouble, all though I guess that it isn't saying a lot compared to where we are now.

[T R U]

5 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

If we don't get high level starters out of both Teel and Montgomery, we are in huge trouble, all though I guess that it isn't saying a lot compared to where we are now.

Hell, even if we just get competent starters out of Teel, Montgomery, and Meidroth I think we will be OK. If one of Teel or Montgomery become high level, even better.

That will go a long way with what we currently have and the high draft picks we will be adding over the next 2-3 years. 

[WestEddy]

36 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Mid and small market teams that generally trade away future Cy Young winners or MVP's like Mookie Betts for financial reasons rarely end up winning those trades...

Again, ALL prospects have a high fail rate. The point is to draft better, scout better internationally, and acquire better talent in trades and waiver claims. Nervously watching one prospect to win one trade to save the franchise doesn't carry good odds. 

[caulfield12]

14 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

Again, ALL prospects have a high fail rate. The point is to draft better, scout better internationally, and acquire better talent in trades and waiver claims. Nervously watching one prospect to win one trade to save the franchise doesn't carry good odds. 

You just made the counter-argument for why trading All-Stars for unproven prospects has such limited success.

Plus, we can't even get Top (1) 3-4 draft picks right at this point...other than Rodon, the most successful first rounders have all come from the middle section like Anderson Sale Crochet and Burger.

(Fulmer and Collins other Top Ten busts).

Edited April 10 by caulfield12

[PaleAleSox]

56 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Mid and small market teams that generally trade away future Cy Young winners or MVP's like Mookie Betts for financial reasons rarely end up winning those trades...

That Mookie Betts trade might be the worst trade of all time.

[WestEddy]

1 hour ago, caulfield12 said:

You just made the counter-argument for why trading All-Stars for unproven prospects has such limited success.

Plus, we can't even get Top (1) 3-4 draft picks right at this point...other than Rodon, the most successful first rounders have all come from the middle section like Anderson Sale Crochet and Burger.

(Fulmer and Collins other Top Ten busts).

Then it's a good thing we replaced the guy who blew all those high first round picks with Mike Shirley, who seems to have conducted multiple, successful drafts, 2022 looking like an insanely good draft, top to bottom. 

Jerry Reinsdorf doesn't sit in the war room and tell people who to draft. KW, Huber and Hahn did. You might wish to educate yourself on the process before you keep pretending that drafts conducted under a bunch of people who are no longer here still have any bearing on what goes on now. 

I've made the same argument I've been making to you all along. Are you saying that we should never trade good players during a rebuild? That would be silly.

Edited April 10 by WestEddy

[JoeC]

2 hours ago, WestEddy said:

Again, ALL prospects have a high fail rate. The point is to draft better, scout better internationally, and acquire better talent in trades and waiver claims. Nervously watching one prospect to win one trade to save the franchise doesn't carry good odds. 

You forgot develop better.

[caulfield12]

Worst.Roster.Ever.

[southsider2k5]

26 minutes ago, JoeC said:

You forgot develop better.

Absolutely wild that one was forgotten, I wonder why?

[caulfield12]

1 hour ago, WestEddy said:

Then it's a good thing we replaced the guy who blew all those high first round picks with Mike Shirley, who seems to have conducted multiple, successful drafts, 2022 looking like an insanely good draft, top to bottom. 

Jerry Reinsdorf doesn't sit in the war room and tell people who to draft. KW, Huber and Hahn did. You might wish to educate yourself on the process before you keep pretending that drafts conducted under a bunch of people who are no longer here still have any bearing on what goes on now. 

I've made the same argument I've been making to you all along. Are you saying that we should never trade good players during a rebuild? That would be silly.

Crochet's much better than a mere "good player".

HAber and KW and Hahn each no longer work in baseball at all.

I feel much better about that. But there's almost no evidence that Getz belongs in his current position, either. 

Scant...at best.

(Glad to see your ongoing arguments about Padres' fans being worse off than Sox fans turned out so well so far. First team in baseball to ten wins, while the Sox might be the last to ten.

Note SD is missing five key players as of today...but Martin Maldonado is currently out hitting nearly the entire starting lineup today.)

Edited April 10 by caulfield12

[WhiteSox2023]

19 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Absolutely wild that one was forgotten, I wonder why?

It’s not Getz’s fault.  It’s Kenny and Hahn’s fault.  Getz was never in a player development rol…  oh wait, nevermind.

[WestEddy]

45 minutes ago, JoeC said:

You forgot develop better.

Didn't forget. I'm not going to type out a "how to run a baseball team" manifesto every time Caulfield trolls me. 

[WestEddy]

14 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Crochet's much better than a mere "good player".

HAber and KW and Hahn each no longer work in baseball at all.

I feel much better about that. But there's almost no evidence that Getz belongs in his current position, either. 

Scant...at best.

(Glad to see your ongoing arguments about Padres' fans being worse off than Sox fans turned out so well so far. First team in baseball to ten wins, while the Sox might be the last to ten.

Note SD is missing five key players as of today...but Martin Maldonado is currently out hitting nearly the entire starting lineup today.)

I believe that Cleveland and Seattle teams in the 90's set the modern day records for winning percentage and total wins, and I can't seem to find if they won a World Series in there. Maybe you can help me with that. Did the Cleveland team or the Mariners (or even Padres, for that matter) win a World Series when they were setting win records? So, Bad-res' fans can be happy for a while, kind of like Europeans in the late 1920's. 

I called Crochet a great pitcher. I don't care where Haber or Hahn or KW work, now. Neither should you. There's a great deal of evidence that Getz belongs in his current position. The biggest piece is the fact that he currently holds that position with a major league team. Then, the fact that many respected baseball people have come to the White Sox based on Getz being GM. Rebuilding teams lose more games than they win. So, yeah, we're going to endure a couple losing seasons while the new international scouting department, pitching lab, hitting lab, DR facility, and all start developing their prospects up the ladder. (I'm sure there's something I didn't mention. I assume that I don't have to retype all of baseball history in order to not have "missed" something.)

[caulfield12]

7 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

I believe that Cleveland and Seattle teams in the 90's set the modern day records for winning percentage and total wins, and I can't seem to find if they won a World Series in there. Maybe you can help me with that. Did the Cleveland team or the Mariners (or even Padres, for that matter) win a World Series when they were setting win records? So, Bad-res' fans can be happy for a while, kind of like Europeans in the late 1920's. 

I called Crochet a great pitcher. I don't care where Haber or Hahn or KW work, now. Neither should you. There's a great deal of evidence that Getz belongs in his current position. The biggest piece is the fact that he currently holds that position with a major league team. Then, the fact that many respected baseball people have come to the White Sox based on Getz being GM. Rebuilding teams lose more games than they win. So, yeah, we're going to endure a couple losing seasons while the new international scouting department, pitching lab, hitting lab, DR facility, and all start developing their prospects up the ladder. (I'm sure there's something I didn't mention. I assume that I don't have to retype all of baseball history in order to not have "missed" something.)

"All the best people."

Getz is clearly the only one who could have accomplished that.

 

We might get something from the DR lab before 2030...maybe.

[WestEddy]

25 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

"All the best people."

Getz is clearly the only one who could have accomplished that.

 

We might get something from the DR lab before 2030...maybe.

Are you quoting somebody?

Nobody said Getz was the only one who could clean house and bring in new people. How has it come to be a pedantic argument point that Getz has to strike some new path, and figure out a uniquely new way to build a ball-team, like maybe invent a magical elixir that turns dogs into great baseball players? Reanimate the dead into baseball players? 

There's a pretty narrow path to building a ball team. scout players in baseball hotbeds. Maybe find a newish hotbed? Draft or sign them. Develop them (that's for you, @JoeC). Give them opportunities. It seems pretty out there to figure out a cheaper way forward than signing the top free agents every off-season. That seems to be how the minds of most sports fans work - "I'm thirsty!!" "Well, let's buy a lake at the highest price, just to prove we want to quench our thirst!!!"

[fathom]

I can’t imagine how difficult it must be to keep finding ways to stick up for an organization that has totally collapsed.

[Tnetennba]

1 hour ago, JoeC said:

You forgot develop better.

The level of disconnect is astounding.

The point IS to draft better, scout better internationally, and acquire better talent in trades and waiver claims, etc. And develop better.

But its not like the guy in charge now, who shall never have any blame placed at his feet, has or has had any responsibility for any these areas in which the White Sox organization has failed miserably.

Nope, none whatsoever. Not in the past, present, or future. All is sunshine and roses in Getz land...

Holy f*** this level of mental gymnastics has to be exhausting...

[fathom]

6 minutes ago, Tnetennba said:

The level of disconnect is astounding.

The point IS to draft better, scout better internationally, and acquire better talent in trades and waiver claims, etc. And develop better.

But its not like the guy in charge now, who shall never have any blame placed at his feet, has or has had any responsibility for any these areas in which the White Sox organization has failed miserably.

Nope, none whatsoever. Not in the past, present, or future. All is sunshine and roses in Getz land...

Holy f*** this level of mental gymnastics has to be exhausting...

The scary thing to me is that I’m sure there are people in the organization that have convinced themselves everything is going smoothly, just like what WestEddy is writing.