2 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

Or have the Sox perhaps instilled that sort of culture over the years?

Tolerated/complacency.

10 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Tolerated/complacency.

16:25 mark.  “Prisoners running the asylum.”

 

Edited August 20, 2025Aug 20 by WhiteSox2023

On 8/15/2025 at 8:50 PM, Chicago White Sox said:

Who is throwing roses at the Sox over Vaughn sucking?  Me highlighting quality work from Fuller this year was to point out that other hitters are getting better in this very organization.  That doesn’t make me some front office Stan, I have been very vocal in my disappointment with Bannister and the pitching this year.  I may lean towards an optimistic take, but I will always call it like I see it.

As for your example, we’re talking about young millionaires with massive ego’s.  A person has to want to get better for an organization to make them better.  I made many bad decisions in my youth from a professional perspective that would reflect poorly on my first employer and it took a change of scenery (or in my case, being let go) for me to recheck myself and reach my potential.  As I mentioned earlier, there have been leaks for the past several years that Vaughn wasn’t open to instruction or analytics.  Some people are unfortunately uncoachable until they take a L and it’s very apparent to me that’s the case with Andrew.  People can blame the Sox because it’s easy and it fills the “Sox suck at everything” narrative, but sometimes you got hold the person or in this case the player accountable.  The Sox gave this dude 2,400 PA’s and he put up -1.8 fWAR before being demoted and sucking even worse in AAA.  I’m not trying to give the Sox a free pass, but in this case I am very confident that Andrew Vaughn was going to suck with us no matter we did because he was a stubborn, ignorant f*** unwilling to change.

The Sox are 3rd to last in wRC+. That anchor they set last year is causing praise to be heaped on a guy in charge of the 3rd worst offense in baseball.

3 hours ago, champagne030 said:

That's fucking awesome.  I don't know if Vaughn needed a wakeup call, change of scenery/new voice or just another case of Getz's ineptitude at being in charge of everyone in the player development program.

According to the Bewers manager he said if he chases pitches out of the zone he wont play

36 rbi in 34 games? Hitting .325. He's doing well for the Brewers. Hopefully they win it all and he has a huge postseason.

1 hour ago, kitekrazy said:

According to the Bewers manager he said if he chases pitches out of the zone he wont play

If true, what a stud.  Balls the size of grapefruits.

5 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

If true, what a stud.  Balls the size of grapefruits.

In one game earlier this week, the Brewers didn't swing at a single 2-0 count.  Let the other guy make the mistakes.

3 hours ago, RibbieRubarb said:

Brewers broadcast said the Brewers coaches saw a flaw and they helped fix it. He can now see the pitches better and be more patient.
They didn't say what specifically...

With hitting its such the little things, especially mental. So, I wouldn't discount getting a new start factoring in...

bullshit, Ryan Fuller > all

13 hours ago, WestEddy said:

I remember the story of Kopech, and I'll choose the former reason. 

Ah yes, Kopech, the other guy who allegedly refused to listen to the Sox but got traded, made a change, and was awesome overnight. Unless you think that is purely a coincidence?

13 hours ago, southsider2k5 said:

My guess is the second half leads to the first half, especially based on how many players get trashed by the Sox minions for work ethic, at the same time that Ex-Sox players are amazed at how much better it seems away from the Sox.  It is valid to wonder how connected the two things are when they seem to keep happening over and over again, meanwhile survey after survey puts the Sox at the bottom of the league as a place to play.

If true, have we ever stopped to ask why so many seemingly "lazy" players end up here?

I look it at it like this, if my kid is playing video games and my wife tells him its bed time he needs to turn it off and he says "Ok let me finish my game" and then 30 minutes later he's still playing and my wife again has to ask him to get off which he says "Ok, one more minute" and then I have to walk in there and tell him to get off now and he immediately does so, its not the kid that's the problem its the approach. 

13 minutes ago, T R U said:

Ah yes, Kopech, the other guy who allegedly refused to listen to the Sox but got traded, made a change, and was awesome overnight. Unless you think that is purely a coincidence?

Coincidence? He made the "change" about 3 weeks before he was traded and started throwing clean innings. You can just look at game logs.

After a bad outing on 7/7/24 against the Marlins, Kopech said this:
'I've got work to do': Kopech falters, gives up 4 runs in 9th
 

Quote

“It’s coming down to what we talked about a lot lately in-house,” Kopech said. “I need to mix my pitches and not just rely on the fastball so much. It’s difficult to do that when I fall behind and my best pitch is my fastball. I have to get back in the count.”

Kopech threw 18 four-seam fastballs and two cutters among his 20 pitches, with a potential overreliance on the four-seamer arising, despite the pitch averaging 98.7 mph and opposing hitters slugging .396 against it entering Sunday, according to Statcast.

Here's a story from SoxMachine - 7/8/24: 
Michael Kopech can't shift off his fastball, and Pedro Grifol can't shift off Michael Kopech - Sox Machine

Quote

With Kopech, he just keeps throwing fastballs. Lots and lots of fastballs. Pretty much only fastballs, including 18 out of 20 against the Marlins on Sunday.

And what's more troubling is that even he doesn't think it's a good idea.

“It’s coming down to what we talked about a lot lately in-house,” Kopech said. “I need to mix my pitches and not just rely on the fastball so much. It’s difficult to do that when I fall behind and my best pitch is my fastball. I have to get back in the count.”

Here's pregame notes for the 7/8/24 game, where Grifol reiterates the approach Kopech needs to take:
Pregame Notes: No big change in Michael Kopech's role as of yet - Sox Machine
 

Quote

"We've just got to continue to teach him how to mix it up and execute a game plan, really," Grifol said. "Because you get in that situation and you want to lose with your best stuff. His best is his fastball, so he's got to understand that his second-best is not that bad either. And his second-best might be good enough to get people out and his third-best might be good enough to get people out."

Then on 7/10, Kopech threw an immaculate inning against the Twins. Here's discussion on SoxMachine on how he did it:
White Sox 3, Twins 1: An immaculate ending - Sox Machine
 

Quote

Kopech struck out the side on nine pitches for the second immaculate inning in White Sox history, joining Sloppy Thurston, who accomplished the feat 100 years ago. Kopech, who just two outings ago appeared ill-suited for closing because he only trusted his fastball, never threw more than two four-seamers in a row, and the increased cutter usage played up to maximum effect.

Here's Kopech admitting in the Sun-Times that there's a game plan he's not sure about:
White Sox' Michael Kopech finishes Twins with immaculate inning - Chicago Sun-Times
 

Quote

‘‘It’s been a tough stretch,’’ said Kopech, who is in his first season as a closer. ‘‘Had a game plan that I’ve been tentative to lean on, and we finally leaned into it the last couple of days. [Catcher] Korey [Lee] has done a great job of sticking with me through that, and to see it pay off was extremely rewarding. I didn’t expect it to be in that manner, but it was pretty fun.”

From July 8th on, Kopech threw 5.2 innings, allowed 2 baserunners, and struck out 8. 

We don't need to pretend that Kopech was throwing garbage up until the day he was traded, then miraculously, became a shut down closer the day he put on a Dodger uniform. 

53 minutes ago, T R U said:

I look it at it like this, if my kid is playing video games and my wife tells him its bed time he needs to turn it off and he says "Ok let me finish my game" and then 30 minutes later he's still playing and my wife again has to ask him to get off which he says "Ok, one more minute" and then I have to walk in there and tell him to get off now and he immediately does so, its not the kid that's the problem its the approach. 

Sure, but as a professional athlete, I think more accountability should be expected of Vaughn than your kid in these two scenarios.

23 minutes ago, Snopek said:

Sure, but as a professional athlete, I think more accountability should be expected of Vaughn than your kid in these two scenarios.

Yes I agree, but I was mainly just using that to make a point about an approach. 

26 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

Coincidence? He made the "change" about 3 weeks before he was traded and started throwing clean innings. You can just look at game logs.

After a bad outing on 7/7/24 against the Marlins, Kopech said this:
'I've got work to do': Kopech falters, gives up 4 runs in 9th
 

Here's a story from SoxMachine - 7/8/24: 
Michael Kopech can't shift off his fastball, and Pedro Grifol can't shift off Michael Kopech - Sox Machine

Here's pregame notes for the 7/8/24 game, where Grifol reiterates the approach Kopech needs to take:
Pregame Notes: No big change in Michael Kopech's role as of yet - Sox Machine
 

Then on 7/10, Kopech threw an immaculate inning against the Twins. Here's discussion on SoxMachine on how he did it:
White Sox 3, Twins 1: An immaculate ending - Sox Machine
 

Here's Kopech admitting in the Sun-Times that there's a game plan he's not sure about:
White Sox' Michael Kopech finishes Twins with immaculate inning - Chicago Sun-Times
 

From July 8th on, Kopech threw 5.2 innings, allowed 2 baserunners, and struck out 8. 

We don't need to pretend that Kopech was throwing garbage up until the day he was traded, then miraculously, became a shut down closer the day he put on a Dodger uniform. 

We don't have to pretend, his body of work prior to be trading shows it.

43.2 IP, 4.74 ERA (4.84 FIP) and a 1.35 WHIP with the Sox

24 IP, 1.13 ERA (2.54 FIP) and a .79 WHIP with the Dodgers

He quite literally become a shut down closer the day he put on a Dodger uniform, I just showed you the proof. I recall people bringing up the stories about Kopech not listening to the Sox, and if he finally did a week or so prior to being traded that still isn't the best look for the Sox there.

29 minutes ago, T R U said:

We don't have to pretend, his body of work prior to be trading shows it.

43.2 IP, 4.74 ERA (4.84 FIP) and a 1.35 WHIP with the Sox

24 IP, 1.13 ERA (2.54 FIP) and a .79 WHIP with the Dodgers

He quite literally become a shut down closer the day he put on a Dodger uniform, I just showed you the proof. I recall people bringing up the stories about Kopech not listening to the Sox, and if he finally did a week or so prior to being traded that still isn't the best look for the Sox there.

Well then pick a lane. Either he accepted a change in pitch mix weeks before the TDL and it worked, which is the actual reality of the situation, or reality didn't happen. 

He quite literally did NOT become shut down the day he became a Dodger. He talked about how he was reluctant to do the actual things the Sox kept telling him to do until right before his 5 strong outings with the White Sox, doing the things they coached him to do. Then he continued having success after the trade. 

Sure, maybe the Dodgers gained his trust more, and impressed upon Kopech to continue listening to his catcher. Just like the White Sox did when Kopech admitted that Korey Lee was good at impressing upon Kopech to let him call the game. Unless you think Kopech was lying then, and you think the scorekeeper felt bad for all the hits and walks Kopech was giving in his last 5 games with the Sox and decided to just put all zeroes in the box score. 

 

6 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

Well then pick a lane. Either he accepted a change in pitch mix weeks before the TDL and it worked, which is the actual reality of the situation, or reality didn't happen. 

He quite literally did NOT become shut down the day he became a Dodger. He talked about how he was reluctant to do the actual things the Sox kept telling him to do until right before his 5 strong outings with the White Sox, doing the things they coached him to do. Then he continued having success after the trade. 

Sure, maybe the Dodgers gained his trust more, and impressed upon Kopech to continue listening to his catcher. Just like the White Sox did when Kopech admitted that Korey Lee was good at impressing upon Kopech to let him call the game. Unless you think Kopech was lying then, and you think the scorekeeper felt bad for all the hits and walks Kopech was giving in his last 5 games with the Sox and decided to just put all zeroes in the box score. 

 

Your whole argument here is that Kopech finally listened to the Sox 5 outings before ultimately leaving the organization. So he either A.) Never listened to them before or B.) Was never given this instruction previously. Either way, everything keeps circling back to the Sox inability to get the best out of their players. 

I can't pretend to know every conversation that takes place between an organization and a player but I can visually see successful players come here and lose all their ability to perform as well as when underperforming players get sent packing and all of the sudden they can play. This is not 100% the case for EVERY player, but seems to happen often.

4 minutes ago, T R U said:

Your whole argument here is that Kopech finally listened to the Sox 5 outings before ultimately leaving the organization. So he either A.) Never listened to them before or B.) Was never given this instruction previously. Either way, everything keeps circling back to the Sox inability to get the best out of their players. 

I can't pretend to know every conversation that takes place between an organization and a player but I can visually see successful players come here and lose all their ability to perform as well as when underperforming players get sent packing and all of the sudden they can play. This is not 100% the case for EVERY player, but seems to happen often.

20 minutes ago, T R U said:

Your whole argument here is that Kopech finally listened to the Sox 5 outings before ultimately leaving the organization. So he either A.) Never listened to them before or B.) Was never given this instruction previously. Either way, everything keeps circling back to the Sox inability to get the best out of their players. 

I can't pretend to know every conversation that takes place between an organization and a player but I can visually see successful players come here and lose all their ability to perform as well as when underperforming players get sent packing and all of the sudden they can play. This is not 100% the case for EVERY player, but seems to happen often.

Yes, that is my argument, because that is irrefutable fact backed up by multiple accounts, including Kopech's own words. The only acceptable response for any reasonable person is, "yes, westeddy, you are correct. Those things you pointed out did happen in that order."

I don't know why you need to add your A or B. Kopech probably listened to his coaches selectively, just as your kid probably heeds his mother selectively (per your example). Sometimes he had success, and sometimes he didn't. As for your B, that's insane and completely unreasonable. You're alleging that in 8 years prior, nobody ever gave Kopech a game plan to follow. The fact that the catcher gave him signs relayed by the dugout refutes this. But they were telling reporters he won't listen to them, while not giving him direction, and Kopech decided to go along with that lie, and admit he wasn't following the direction they weren't giving him. 

Do you see how insane that sounds?!? All in service of distorting the simple fact that Kopech finally, consistently listened to his coaches for his last 5 outings, and finally had consistent success, which then continued after the trade.

What you originally claimed is wrong. Admit it, and let's move on. 

Quote

Ah yes, Kopech, the other guy who allegedly refused to listen to the Sox but got traded, made a change, and was awesome overnight. Unless you think that is purely a coincidence?

It's all Kopech's fault

It's all Anderson's fault

It's all Vaughn's fault

It's all Moncada's fault

It's all Eloy's fault

It's all Lynn's fault

It's all Roberts fault

The Sox have been giving us this song and dance for decades now... the question is all how far you want to go back as to who they were calling lazy.  It's  trope at this point.  If you want to keep eating from this trough, feel free, but I am done.

Kopech's ERA in July before traded (his last month with the White Sox) was 5.79 in 9 innings.

August with Dodgers .68 ERA

September with Dodgers 1.86 ERA

Very confused how he "was a shut down closer" before he left.

Edited August 21, 2025Aug 21 by Look at Ray Ray Run

Just now, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Kopech's ERA in July before before traded (his last month with three White Sox) was 5.79.

August with Dodgers .68 ERA

September with Dodgers 1.86 ERA

Very confused how he "was a shut down closer" before he left.

WestEddy is saying the Sox "fixed him" 5 outings before he was traded, therefor, the Dodgers have nothing to do with it. It's best to just move on with your life.

Edited August 21, 2025Aug 21 by T R U

1 hour ago, WestEddy said:

Yes, that is my argument, because that is irrefutable fact backed up by multiple accounts, including Kopech's own words. The only acceptable response for any reasonable person is, "yes, westeddy, you are correct. Those things you pointed out did happen in that order."

I don't know why you need to add your A or B. Kopech probably listened to his coaches selectively, just as your kid probably heeds his mother selectively (per your example). Sometimes he had success, and sometimes he didn't. As for your B, that's insane and completely unreasonable. You're alleging that in 8 years prior, nobody ever gave Kopech a game plan to follow. The fact that the catcher gave him signs relayed by the dugout refutes this. But they were telling reporters he won't listen to them, while not giving him direction, and Kopech decided to go along with that lie, and admit he wasn't following the direction they weren't giving him. 

Do you see how insane that sounds?!? All in service of distorting the simple fact that Kopech finally, consistently listened to his coaches for his last 5 outings, and finally had consistent success, which then continued after the trade.

What you originally claimed is wrong. Admit it, and let's move on. 

If you're going to base your argument on the words from Kopech, these also seem important:

- As a Dodger, shortly after being traded from the White Sox:

Quote

“Losing is its own feeling altogether. You show up every day and hopefully scrap one out, but to continue losing, it's tough. Here … it seems like everybody meshes together really well. And then to continue that energy after a game when you're riding a high from a win, it's, to be cliche, all good vibes here. So it's pretty cool.”

- An interview with PitcherList after the trade:

Quote

 

Renee Dechert: You’re not with Chicago anymore. What has the change been like for you?

Michael Kopech: It’s kind of hard to put into words to be honest. I worked hard over there. I enjoyed my time with the White Sox, but since I’ve come over here, everything about the atmosphere, the acceptance of everyone, it’s just been uplifting. To be honest with you, I feel like I’m blessed to be here. So the transition has been pretty seamless. I don’t know if I could tell you a specific thing that happened as far as pitching stuff goes, but the mentality changed when I got here.

RD: Clearly, the Dodgers and the White Sox have very different approaches. How have the Dodgers employed you differently than you were before?

MK: They just reiterated that they believe in what I have. And so when I first got here, they were just like, we just want you to go do what you do. We changed some things. We talked about tightening up the slider. And for most part, it was just telling me to go out there and pitch with what I have, and I’ve been encouraged to do that.

I don't really have a horse in this race, but to say going from the 2024 White Sox to the 2024 Dodgers had no impact on Kopech, that he simply brought over exactly what he was doing with the White Sox to the Dodgers is silly. 

 

8 minutes ago, T R U said:

WestEddy is saying the Sox "fixed him" 5 outings before he was traded, therefor, the Dodgers have nothing to do with it. It's best to just move on with your life.

He didn't need fixing. That's the point. All he had to do was stop throwing 4-seamers every single pitch. I'm sure the Dodgers handled him with kid gloves once he got there, and that's why he hasn't been on the IL since. Oh wait...

I don't think it's that deep. Walking into your job when you're losing every day sucks. When you go to LA, and suddenly you're on a winning team of course it's a breath of fresh air. Kopech clearly didn't have something the Sox just missed, he's just not very good and like all mediocre pitchers occasionally he'll have a decent stretch.

20 minutes ago, Tony said:

If you're going to base your argument on the words from Kopech, these also seem important:

- As a Dodger, shortly after being traded from the White Sox:

- An interview with PitcherList after the trade:

I don't really have a horse in this race, but to say going from the 2024 White Sox to the 2024 Dodgers had no impact on Kopech, that he simply brought over exactly what he was doing with the White Sox to the Dodgers is silly. 

 

That's kind of what Kopech seems to be saying in your quotes. But yeah, good vibes made him mix his pitches more. I guess. 

Edited August 21, 2025Aug 21 by WestEddy