Sox trade Andrew Vaughn to acquire Aaron Civale

[WestEddy]

24 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

Per WE’s final paragraph, losses don’t mean anything during a rebuild, yet he continues to talk about an improved, albeit still pathetic winning percentage (.400) since May 1st.

So maybe only wins matter during a rebuild, but not the losses?

As a result, Getz can never look bad!  Amazing logic if your goal is to defend an awful GM.

I'm not even sure where you're going here. I'm sorry I don't feel the deep shame you want me to for the lack of accomplishment from people who aren't me? Again, you're really spoiled for choice here for people to share your weird obsession over Chris Getz with. 

[WhiteSox2023]

24 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

I'm not even sure where you're going here. I'm sorry I don't feel the deep shame you want me to for the lack of accomplishment from people who aren't me? Again, you're really spoiled for choice here for people to share your weird obsession over Chris Getz with. 

I never said you feel any deep shame.  Read your own previous post again.  You directly contradict yourself in your first and last paragraphs of the post regarding wins and losses for a rebuilding team.

Edited August 22 by WhiteSox2023

[southsider2k5]

33 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

I'm not even sure where you're going here. I'm sorry I don't feel the deep shame you want me to for the lack of accomplishment from people who aren't me? Again, you're really spoiled for choice here for people to share your weird obsession over Chris Getz with. 

Dude turns in one of the absolute worst stretches in the 125 year history of baseball and when some criticizes him you come running like Commissioner Gordon turned on the Bat Signal.  There might be someone here with a weird Chris Getz obsession,  but me thinks there is some projection happening.

[caulfield12]

Minor league development people and scout don't look at team minor league win totals as being a highly correlated indicator of much at all.

Birmingham has the best record but least amount of future big league talent other than Braden...who was just recently added.

They do start to look at team records when you have 4-6 really highly ranked prospects together and they're still not making the playoffs...but if the rest of the roster is crap or injured like the 2013-2016 White Sox, then you're still not going very far with stars and scrubs.

And if all your minor league affiliates were in last place...that probably wouldn't bode vey well at all lol.

[KipWellsFan]

Vaughn has been pretty mediocre the last two weeks. Just saying...

[almagest]

7 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

Minor league development people and scout don't look at team minor league win totals as being a highly correlated indicator of much at all.

Birmingham has the best record but least amount of future big league talent other than Braden...who was just recently added.

They do start to look at team records when you have 4-6 really highly ranked prospects together and they're still not making the playoffs...but if the rest of the roster is crap or injured like the 2013-2016 White Sox, then you're still not going very far with stars and scrubs.

And if all your minor league affiliates were in last place...that probably wouldn't bode vey well at all lol.

That's not true. re: Birmingham. Braden Montgomery, Hagen Smith, Tanner McDougal and Sam Antonacci are all in the top 10 of Sox Machine's top 30 prospects and have a solid chance to make an MLB impact. William Bergolla (15th) and Shane Murphy (25th) are also in AA.

[spiderman]

3 hours ago, KipWellsFan said:

Vaughn has been pretty mediocre the last two weeks. Just saying...

He's more than likely to revert back to what we see in Chicago during his career. We also don't know if he'll be playing every day down the stretch if he cools off and Milwaukee starts playing matchups more. Hoskins will be back soon also.

[caulfield12]

1 hour ago, almagest said:

That's not true. re: Birmingham. Braden Montgomery, Hagen Smith, Tanner McDougal and Sam Antonacci are all in the top 10 of Sox Machine's top 30 prospects and have a solid chance to make an MLB impact. William Bergolla (15th) and Shane Murphy (25th) are also in AA.

But for the majority of the season...Bergolla was the best hitting prospect.

Who were the starting outfielders in April May June?

[WestEddy]

4 hours ago, KipWellsFan said:

Vaughn has been pretty mediocre the last two weeks. Just saying...

Vaughn could bottom out and wind up with negative WAR in Milwaukee, but for the next 5 years, he will be on the list of players who left and got better. And when it's pointed out he didn't, the same half a dozen people will clown that fact for pages, because reasons. 

[caulfield12]

3 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

Vaughn could bottom out and wind up with negative WAR in Milwaukee, but for the next 5 years, he will be on the list of players who left and got better. And when it's pointed out he didn't, the same half a dozen people will clown that fact for pages, because reasons. 

He's still going to be on the list of main reasons for 30 or 45 days the Brewers surged past the Cubs when the story of the season is written.

Or will only Kyle Tucker's mysterious hitting slump be remembered most?

[almagest]

3 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

But for the majority of the season...Bergolla was the best hitting prospect.

Who were the starting outfielders in April May June?

Why does that matter? Players move around a lot in the minors. The Barons were 38-31 in the first half. They're 32-15 in the second half. A big reason for that large improvement is adding good players in the Sox top 30 to the roster.

[WestEddy]

4 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

He's still going to be on the list of main reasons for 30 or 45 days the Brewers surged past the Cubs when the story of the season is written.

Or will only Kyle Tucker's mysterious hitting slump be remembered most?

And away we goooooooo

Yes, perhaps his hot streak will be one to remember. But "getting better upon leaving" doesn't equal a hot streak. 

Edited August 22 by WestEddy

[caulfield12]

El Paso 67-55

San Antonio 57-60

Ft. Wayne 57-63 (de Vries, Top 5 guy)   pythagorean 50-66

Lake Elsinore 52-65

-7 games overall

By far the worst minor league system in baseball, 29th or 30th by every rating system....maybe it was closer to .500 and above three weeks ago when a slew of top prospects were traded, but the correlation level between minor league winning percentage and success of producing ready-made major league prospects isn't a slam dunk.

It's just an obvious thing for fans to look at first.

You could also for example look at total runs scored and allowed....but 75-80% of that production will never end up represented on a major league roster.

But 11 of their already in SD have been traded away this season already...just like a number of Top 30 in the Sox system graduated to the big league team.

 

Charlotte 57-65

Birmingham 70-46

Winston Salem 47-68

Kannapolis 53-64

-16 games under .500

From the #3/4 system at start of the year to #15-18 right now...all that indicates is Birmingham is a much stronger team today than April 1st or May 1st or even June 1st.

Just like WestEddy argues about the White Sox record being poisoned largely by journeymen/veterans leading to a 7-23 start.

Edited August 22 by caulfield12

[WestEddy]

50 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

It's just an obvious thing for fans to look at first.

You could also for example look at total runs scored and allowed....but 75-80% of that production will never end up represented on a major league roster.

Do you really know of any credible prospect analysis outfits that look at minor league win-loss records? I agree that fans who don't really pay attention scoff at a system based on W-L's. Normal systems are regularly moving guys around, on and off rosters, so the teams aren't really indicative of anything. 

I'd agree that better players win more games, but when you have situations like Noah Schultz, where a team is stretching him out and fine-tuning his approach and arsenal, his results might influence outside rankings, but the team has a path, and they're not pursuing W-L's, ERA or anything beyond specific, targeted stats. 

An organization like the Sox might now be zeroing in on wins for Birmingham and Winston-Salem, as they'll want their guys to experience the urgency of a "pennant race", and they get an extra week or so of competitive games. 

[T R U]

54 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

Vaughn could bottom out and wind up with negative WAR in Milwaukee, but for the next 5 years, he will be on the list of players who left and got better. And when it's pointed out he didn't, the same half a dozen people will clown that fact for pages, because reasons. 

I think the main thing is, Andrew Vaughn was pretty bad for 4+ seasons here. In 150 plate appearances with Milwaukee, he has produced 1.2 bWAR when he produced a total of -0.5 bWAR in his Sox career.

Something got changed with him from some form of instruction from the Brewers. The K rate is drastically cut, the walk rate has drastically risen, these are all clear signs of a change in approach at the plate.

Vaughn could bottom out, but that will never undo what's going on with him right now. The Sox have a terrible reputation with player development and this is an example of someone else being able to get SOMETHING out of Vaughn the Sox never could even if its only for 200 or so PA's if that's even how it ends up shaking out.  

[WestEddy]

25 minutes ago, T R U said:

I think the main thing is, Andrew Vaughn was pretty bad for 4+ seasons here. In 150 plate appearances with Milwaukee, he has produced 1.2 bWAR when he produced a total of -0.5 bWAR in his Sox career.

Something got changed with him from some form of instruction from the Brewers. The K rate is drastically cut, the walk rate has drastically risen, these are all clear signs of a change in approach at the plate.

Vaughn could bottom out, but that will never undo what's going on with him right now. The Sox have a terrible reputation with player development and this is an example of someone else being able to get SOMETHING out of Vaughn the Sox never could even if its only for 200 or so PA's if that's even how it ends up shaking out.  

I agree with you on this. And there are no "yeah, but"s. You are correct that this is a heater he's never seen the likes of, before, and I'm already on the same page that he was rushed, and while the position changes got him at-bats, the added pressure and exposure didn't seem to jump start him then. 

[chitownsportsfan]

This fucking bum has had more words wasted on him than actual useful WS players. I can't wait until he sucks again next year so we can all just put this to bed.

[champagne030]

2 hours ago, WestEddy said:

Vaughn could bottom out and wind up with negative WAR in Milwaukee, but for the next 5 years, he will be on the list of players who left and got better. And when it's pointed out he didn't, the same half a dozen people will clown that fact for pages, because reasons. 

And 90% of White Sox fandom is going to clown on Getz for the rest of time because, uh, he has his name as the GM, Asst. GM and DoPD for 6+ years prior to owning the most losses in MLB modern history.

[WestEddy]

30 minutes ago, champagne030 said:

And 90% of White Sox fandom is going to clown on Getz for the rest of time because, uh, he has his name as the GM, Asst. GM and DoPD for 6+ years prior to owning the most losses in MLB modern history.

Once they start winning, nobody will care. 

[JoeC]

21 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

Once they start winning, nobody will care. 

*if

[WestEddy]

12 minutes ago, JoeC said:

*if

And if not, Ishbia will fire Getz, promote Paul Janish, and everybody will flop over and start defending Getz. 

[Lip Man 1]

32 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

And if not, Ishbia will fire Getz, promote Paul Janish, and everybody will flop over and start defending Getz. 

I find it hard to imagine the fan base will start defending Getz when he is eventually fired by Ishbia.

And I hope I'm still alive when they start winning.

[WhiteSox2023]

1 hour ago, JoeC said:

*if

Big assumption.  I don’t see them winning until Ishbia takes over.  Jerry isn’t spending any money on a team he is planning to sell.

[WhiteSox2023]

2 hours ago, chitownsportsfan said:

This fucking bum has had more words wasted on him than actual useful WS players. I can't wait until he sucks again next year so we can all just put this to bed.

Yet there will still be Getzpologists around even after 4 awful seasons with Getz in the front office.

Edited August 22 by WhiteSox2023

[kitekrazy]

1 hour ago, chitownsportsfan said:

This fucking bum has had more words wasted on him than actual useful WS players. I can't wait until he sucks again next year so we can all just put this to bed.

This sums it up really well.