almagest Posted June 25 Author Share Posted June 25 8 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: So the Sox made all of these amazing positive changes, but none of them caused these injuries, even though we see it all over baseball? That is awful convient. When did I ever claim the Sox made amazing, positive changes? I'm in here arguing the opposite - their pitching development has taken a step back from their height from 2000-2012 or so, and I'm hopeful Bannister is bringing some of that back Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted June 25 Share Posted June 25 12 minutes ago, almagest said: When did I ever claim the Sox made amazing, positive changes? I'm in here arguing the opposite - their pitching development has taken a step back from their height from 2000-2012 or so, and I'm hopeful Bannister is bringing some of that back The injury spike happened this year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
almagest Posted June 25 Author Share Posted June 25 11 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said: I'm not going to waste my time on you gaslighting me with nonsense. You know it's a laughable comp. For the third time, the White Sox would have the best rotation in baseball TODAY if they kept their guys. How you all have talked yourselves into believing the Sox needed to overhaul pitching development first I'll never understand. You should probably look up what gaslighting means, because "applying the same argument you're making to a related concept to illustrate how it's wrong" is not what gaslighting is. If it makes you uncomfortable to admit that the White Sox have been good at developing hitting by the same criteria you applied to pitching, then you should probably consider that it's not worthwhile to compare what happened 11-25 years ago to what is happening with the player development staff they have today. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted June 25 Share Posted June 25 14 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said: I'm not going to waste my time on you gaslighting me with nonsense. You know it's a laughable comp. For the third time, the White Sox would have the best rotation in baseball TODAY if they kept their guys. How you all have talked yourselves into believing the Sox needed to overhaul pitching development first I'll never understand. It's great when they draft or sign a great pitcher who goes on to dominate in the majors. We're not spitting 10 of those guys out a year, though. I'm not even sure what you're mocking, here, unless you think pitching labs, biometrics and other modern advancements are all useless fluff. Being able to maximize their draft and international classes by wringing more production out of the middling guys is helpful, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
almagest Posted June 25 Author Share Posted June 25 9 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: The injury spike happened this year. Yes. Did everyone all of a sudden make changes that caused a ton of injuries? Maybe, but I doubt it would take effect that quickly, and we have no evidence to indicate that these kinds of changes were even made with these pitchers. If we see a bunch more talent go down in the next year or so, then there should be some tough questions to answer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Look at Ray Ray Run Posted June 25 Share Posted June 25 38 minutes ago, almagest said: You should probably look up what gaslighting means, because "applying the same argument you're making to a related concept to illustrate how it's wrong" is not what gaslighting is. If it makes you uncomfortable to admit that the White Sox have been good at developing hitting by the same criteria you applied to pitching, then you should probably consider that it's not worthwhile to compare what happened 11-25 years ago to what is happening with the player development staff they have today. I was giving you the benefit of the doubt that you didn't actually believe the dumb ass comparison you made was in anyway valid and relevant. The White Sox are in the bottom 5 in baseball in the same review but for hitters over the same 20 year period. I think they are likely bottom three after the past year added but haven't looked so will give them bottom 5 as they were last year through the same period. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted June 25 Share Posted June 25 38 minutes ago, almagest said: Yes. Did everyone all of a sudden make changes that caused a ton of injuries? Maybe, but I doubt it would take effect that quickly, and we have no evidence to indicate that these kinds of changes were even made with these pitchers. If we see a bunch more talent go down in the next year or so, then there should be some tough questions to answer. Brian Bannister was hired is September of 2023. That is plenty of time. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
almagest Posted June 25 Author Share Posted June 25 8 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: Brian Bannister was hired is September of 2023. That is plenty of time. To do what, exactly? You're jumping to some huge conclusions here. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
almagest Posted June 25 Author Share Posted June 25 14 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said: I was giving you the benefit of the doubt that you didn't actually believe the dumb ass comparison you made was in anyway valid and relevant. The White Sox are in the bottom 5 in baseball in the same review but for hitters over the same 20 year period. I think they are likely bottom three after the past year added but haven't looked so will give them bottom 5 as they were last year through the same period. It's your argument. Don't get mad at me because choosing a quarter of a century for your argument was a poor choice. Also, where are you getting these rankings from? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Look at Ray Ray Run Posted June 25 Share Posted June 25 41 minutes ago, WestEddy said: It's great when they draft or sign a great pitcher who goes on to dominate in the majors. We're not spitting 10 of those guys out a year, though. I'm not even sure what you're mocking, here, unless you think pitching labs, biometrics and other modern advancements are all useless fluff. Being able to maximize their draft and international classes by wringing more production out of the middling guys is helpful, too. Yes I think pitch labs and biomechanics are overrated relative to their outcomes as they tend to prioritize one thing, and that's stuff maximization which has correlated directly to limited availability which degrades the gains. It doesn't mean i think there's zero value there, I just feel this organization was better off allocating and prioritizing other avenues first. Maybe they are! And while I think theres still gains to be had in the space, I believe its in the volume logic the Dodgers have deployed but that requires a budget the Sox aren't working within. I also think that's not the best path forward for the game and it's not considering the impact on career duration and game flow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
almagest Posted June 25 Author Share Posted June 25 (edited) 25 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said: Yes I think pitch labs and biomechanics are overrated relative to their outcomes as they tend to prioritize one thing, and that's stuff maximization which has correlated directly to limited availability which degrades the gains. It doesn't mean i think there's zero value there, I just feel this organization was better off allocating and prioritizing other avenues first. Maybe they are! And while I think theres still gains to be had in the space, I believe its in the volume logic the Dodgers have deployed but that requires a budget the Sox aren't working within. I also think that's not the best path forward for the game and it's not considering the impact on career duration and game flow. I agree with this, but I think kids are being brought into pro ball already focused on stuff maximization. It's going to be hard to rebuild their pitching mechanics. I also wonder how pitchers are going to feel about the Dodgers long term. Guys on the margins probably want any shot they can get so they'll gladly trade short term success for longer term injury, but good pitchers won't want to be there because it will potentially limit their careers. Edited June 25 by almagest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lip Man 1 Posted June 25 Share Posted June 25 25 minutes ago, almagest said: I agree with this, but I think kids are being brought into pro ball already focused on stuff maximization. It's going to be hard to rebuild their pitching mechanics. I also wonder how pitchers are going to feel about the Dodgers long term. Guys on the margins probably want any shot they can get so they'll gladly trade short term success for longer term injury, but good pitchers won't want to be there because it will potentially limit their careers. If the Dodgers keep paying premium rates they'll happily go there. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
almagest Posted June 25 Author Share Posted June 25 53 minutes ago, Lip Man 1 said: If the Dodgers keep paying premium rates they'll happily go there. For long term deals sure. I don't know why the Dodgers would go for long deals if they don't prioritize pitcher health. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted June 25 Share Posted June 25 4 hours ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said: Tihs narrative isn't true though. They've hit on more than Sale, Rodon and Crochet. The White Sox have a lot of success stories. The Sox got 170 innings of a 3.8 FIP out of Phillip fucking Humber They turned Mark Buehrhle into a borderline hall of famer. They unlocked Gavin Floyd's talent that had remained hidden. The acquired and turned Matt Thornton from an out-of-control reliever into one of the games best. They converted Sergio Santos from a SS into a dominant closer with an elite pitch. They acquired John Danks as a failed prospect and turned him into a viable ++ MLB arm prior to injury. They took a guy released by the Yankees and turned him into one of the most consistent pitchers in MLB (Quintana) who went on to acquire Cease who you took from being a designated reliever (read every scouting report that exists prior to the trade) and turned him into an ACE. They acquired Gio and Lopez when their stock had tanked and rebuilt Giolito. They developed Bassit and then gave him away for Bum Samardzija. They reinvented Nate Jones and Hector Santiago and made them both viable big leaguers (Jones was +++ before injury). They did the same with Kahnle. That's just me pulling cases from the top of my head without looking at all the details. Claiming the White Sox only developed Rodon, Sale and Crochet is nonsense. The vast majority of these examples are from a different regime during a different era and bear no credence on the org that Getz inherited. Come on my dude, using Philip Humber to justify our recent org capabilities is beyond ridiculous. You cite Lucas Giolito who was a former top 10 overall prospect who had to go outside the org to right the ship. Lopez’s stock had not fallen when they acquired him and he never really fixed him as a starter. Cease was a consensus top 100 prospect and I don’t recall anyone referring to him as a designed reliever. Honestly, almost none of these examples are a flattering endorsement of Rick Hahn and our pitching developments under him. I am one of the biggest KW fans in the world, but the game quickly passed him by when analytics started becoming ingrained in the game and his lawyer lackey who was supposed to be on the up and up on this stuff failed epically in keeping us in par with the rest of the league. I see no credible argument that the Sox were best in class at developing pitching (or even average) during the second half of Hahn’s tenure and the best, most recent example you cite is literally a dude that Getz and Bannister turned into an insanely good SP and valuable trade asset. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted June 25 Share Posted June 25 (edited) 3 hours ago, almagest said: It's telling that more than half these guys were somewhere between 13 and 25 years ago. That was a completely different org and league at that point. Let's stick to the last 10 years, which is somewhat modern. In that time, you have Cease, who is definitely NOT an ace. He had one ace quality year and regressed due to the same command issues that have plagued him throughout his career. You have Lopez, who failed as a starter here, turned into a decent reliever, then caught lightning in a bottle last year in Atlanta. Hardly a victory lap. You have Giolito, who was probably the worst starter in baseball, then went outside of the organization to Katz who helped refine his mechanics (which I'm sure helped Katz get the job after they fired Cooper). Then Giolito turned in three years of #1-#3 starter quality before he fell off a cliff. Victory for sure, though he's the only big value they got out of that trade. Assuming Eaton didn't get hurt, they might've just been better off keeping him. You have Bassitt, who barely pitched in the majors here, so who knows how well he would've developed after his rookie season. Trading him for Samardzijia was still incredibly stupid but I'm not giving the Sox credit for a major league career he didn't have on their team. Kahnle was a good pickup, but who knows how much his struggles were due to the Coors effect and playing for the only org that rivals the Sox in shittiness. He's also a reliever. They're wildcards. Yup, all of this. Great post and great summary. I feel like people have lost their minds if they think we were this juggernaut at developing pitching talent under Hahn. We had an embarrassment of pitching talent coming out of that first rebuild and we only had one awesome year to show from it. For the most part, our key pitchers were consistently inconsistent and many underperformed. Like have people actually forgotten how our competitive window ending after like two seasons? Edited June 26 by Chicago White Sox Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted June 26 Share Posted June 26 2 hours ago, almagest said: To do what, exactly? You're jumping to some huge conclusions here. Wait, I see everyone literally reading into everything happening behind closed doors, including specifically who is getting what adjustments done, but I am jumping to conclusions by ascribeing what has happened here under Banninster to Bannister? You can't be serious here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Look at Ray Ray Run Posted June 26 Share Posted June 26 Since 2021, Dylan Cease is tied for fourth in baseball in fWAR. But I guess he's not an ace. A lot of odd opinions on Sox talk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted June 26 Share Posted June 26 Former 1.03 pick Carlos Rodon wasn’t healthy or good until his final season with the White Sox after they literally non-tendered him and brought him back on a 1/$3M deal a week before spring training began. Somehow taking seven years in the majors to develop a highly regarded college pitcher is now considered a huge development win and proof we were best in class. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted June 26 Share Posted June 26 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said: Since 2021, Dylan Cease is tied for fourth in baseball in fWAR. But I guess he's not an ace. A lot of odd opinions on Sox talk. Yes, starting with we must go back 20 years to evaluate whether Rick Hahn was good at his job. Unfortunately it turns out he was and we mistakenly fired him. Edited June 26 by Chicago White Sox Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaliSoxFanViaSWside Posted June 26 Share Posted June 26 11 hours ago, southsider2k5 said: In fact, in the short term we have seen a massive injury spike, which we did not see previously, which is exactly what allowed our pitching to be so successful. Our starters were out there almost every day. That's not the case anymore, so while maybe we get more out of our starters, we are also more often pitching our #10 starter, or some dude off of the street, so I am not sure net/net that this is a positive to this point. Again, we obviously need to see if this is the new normal or not for injuries, but early returns are not all positive. The only thing you seem to be saying is there a lot of injuries now. Everything else you said is talking without saying anything. You just I don't know what it means. Congrats ! At least you admitted you don't understand what's going on . 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
almagest Posted June 26 Author Share Posted June 26 1 hour ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said: Since 2021, Dylan Cease is tied for fourth in baseball in fWAR. But I guess he's not an ace. A lot of odd opinions on Sox talk. Not in bWAR, which is a more complete stat for pitchers because it doesn't rely so heavily on FIP. By bWAR he's had an ace year, a #2 year, a #2/#3 year, a #4/#5 year, and this year is on target for another 4/5 finish. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
almagest Posted June 26 Author Share Posted June 26 (edited) 1 hour ago, southsider2k5 said: Wait, I see everyone literally reading into everything happening behind closed doors, including specifically who is getting what adjustments done, but I am jumping to conclusions by ascribeing what has happened here under Banninster to Bannister? You can't be serious here. There's a BIG difference between saying that a pitcher with better stuff needs less stuff enhancement or guys on the margins will go after any advantage they can get, and saying that the sole reason why a bunch of pitchers got hurt this year is due to Brian Bannister being hired in late 2023. Edited June 26 by almagest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaliSoxFanViaSWside Posted June 26 Share Posted June 26 4 hours ago, almagest said: Yes. Did everyone all of a sudden make changes that caused a ton of injuries? Maybe, but I doubt it would take effect that quickly, and we have no evidence to indicate that these kinds of changes were even made with these pitchers. If we see a bunch more talent go down in the next year or so, then there should be some tough questions to answer. Don't know why you even bother. Bannister's been a respected pitching pitch coach for years. The guy is offering no proof except mindless conjecture because the Sox have pitching injuries and Bannisters presence . That's it. There's no investigative reporting going on here. It's all he was here so he can be blamed stuff. It's garbage , baseless nonsense. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Look at Ray Ray Run Posted June 26 Share Posted June 26 (edited) 24 minutes ago, almagest said: Not in bWAR, which is a more complete stat for pitchers because it doesn't rely so heavily on FIP. By bWAR he's had an ace year, a #2 year, a #2/#3 year, a #4/#5 year, and this year is on target for another 4/5 finish. FIP is a better predictor of future success than ERA, is more stable, and is a better reflection of pitcher talent. Edited June 26 by Look at Ray Ray Run Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Look at Ray Ray Run Posted June 26 Share Posted June 26 1 hour ago, Chicago White Sox said: Yes, starting with we must go back 20 years to evaluate whether Rick Hahn was good at his job. Unfortunately it turns out he was and we mistakenly fired him. Rick Hahn was terrible at his job. The White Sox were very good at developing pitching while he was employed by the White Sox. Both statements are true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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