While Everyone Talks about the Tatis trade, was the Samardzija trade even worse?

[southsider2k5]

45 minutes ago, Lip Man 1 said:

Excuse me, reading is an art form. I was commenting on Bell's TOTAL RBI's for both the 92 and 93 seasons when I made the chopped liver comment.

"Generational talent?" Sosa had that potential but at the time he was turning into the head case he'd later clearly show with the Cubs and again bottom line he wasn't getting along with Hriniak who correctly had more say in the organization than a player who was basically a rookie in 1990-91. 

Sosa was a fraud and a liar, end of story.  

With MLB deciding that betting on baseball isn't important anymore, I can't even bring myself to people who cheated to win.

[zisk]

The only time I ever called into sports radio, I ripped the Smarardzjia trade. Host told me I was nuts.

Edited July 3 by zisk
spelling

[Chick Mercedes]

On 7/1/2025 at 7:57 PM, Lip Man 1 said:

Sosa wasn't getting along with Walt Hriniak, the Sox hitting coach and as history has shown his "transformation" is an embarrassment the Sox didn't need.

It's unfortunate, he had talent, in 1990 he was the only player in baseball to record double figures in doubles, triples, home runs, stolen bases and outfield assists. He had the makings of a five-tool player but all he wanted to do was try to hit home runs.

Oh and regarding Bell he drove in 112 RBI's in 92 and 64 in 102 games in 93...not exactly chopped liver.  

So the Sox got a year, the Cubs got one of greatest hitters of all time for a career. Sox didn’t need that though.

[Lip Man 1]

3 hours ago, Chick Mercedes said:

So the Sox got a year, the Cubs got one of greatest hitters of all time for a career. Sox didn’t need that though.

Did the Sox need all the off the field and sometimes on the field controversy either?

Guess it depends on your point of view.

[caulfield12]

90s Cubs baseball is when they pulled away with taking the city over for good, whether it was steroids-driven or not.

WGN Harry Caray and Sosa.

[pcq]

On 7/2/2025 at 11:39 AM, Lip Man 1 said:

Excuse me, reading is an art form. I was commenting on Bell's TOTAL RBI's for both the 92 and 93 seasons when I made the chopped liver comment.

"Generational talent?" Sosa had that potential but at the time he was turning into the head case he'd later clearly show with the Cubs and again bottom line he wasn't getting along with Hriniak who correctly had more say in the organization than a player who was basically a rookie in 1990-91. 

Sosa was a fraud and a liar, end of story.  

Sosa became a national disgrace and MLB  embarrasment. No regrets. 

[Chick Mercedes]

5 hours ago, Lip Man 1 said:

Did the Sox need all the off the field and sometimes on the field controversy either?

Guess it depends on your point of view.

Baseball, between the lines is the POV

[77 Hitmen]

On 7/5/2025 at 3:09 PM, caulfield12 said:

90s Cubs baseball is when they pulled away with taking the city over for good, whether it was steroids-driven or not.

WGN Harry Caray and Sosa.

Bingo.  It wasn't until Sosa burst onto the scene that the Cubs averaged 30k per game year in and year out and they haven't looked back except for during Covid.

And the last two you listed were given to the Cubs by the White Sox on a silver platter.

Edited July 8 by 77 Hitmen

[77 Hitmen]

On 7/2/2025 at 11:39 AM, Lip Man 1 said:

Excuse me, reading is an art form. I was commenting on Bell's TOTAL RBI's for both the 92 and 93 seasons when I made the chopped liver comment.

"Generational talent?" Sosa had that potential but at the time he was turning into the head case he'd later clearly show with the Cubs and again bottom line he wasn't getting along with Hriniak who correctly had more say in the organization than a player who was basically a rookie in 1990-91. 

Sosa was a fraud and a liar, end of story.  

Sounds like I struck a nerve.  How does Bell's TOTAL RBI's for both 92 and 93 seasons help this team when they really needed him in 1993 when they went to the ALCS and only won 2 games against the Jays.  You didn't answer where Bell was during the 1993 playoffs.   As I said before, the Sox sure could have used Sammy's bat that year when he was knocking in 93 RBIs while Bell was one step away from pumping gas for a living.  Oh, and the Sox finished 3rd in 1992, so Bell put up great numbers that year for a team that went nowhere.  I hate Sosa as much as anyone, but let's be real here.

During the Reinsdorf era, I'd say the Sox had 4 players with generational talent that they brought up from their minor league system:

- Thomas:  first ballot HOFer inducted as a Sox player
- Sosa:  traded away for one good season of George Bell while Sosa supercharged the Cubs popularity in Chicago, though later disgraced (and rightfully so)
- Tatis:  superstar for the Padres after traded for a washed up pitcher
- Chris Sale:  Elite starter for years before and after Sox traded him.  Traded in an attempt to stock the Sox system with talent for a rebuild.  But Moncada and Kopech were total flops.  Sox were never going to pay for an extension for him anyway.  

Am I missing anyone?  Not exactly a great track record for Jerry's franchise.  

 

Edited July 8 by 77 Hitmen

[Lip Man 1]

28 minutes ago, 77 Hitmen said:

Sounds like I struck a nerve.  How does Bell's TOTAL RBI's for both 92 and 93 seasons help this team when they really needed him in 1993 when they went to the ALCS and only won 2 games against the Jays.  You didn't answer where Bell was during the 1993 playoffs.   As I said before, the Sox sure could have used Sammy's bat that year when he was knocking in 93 RBIs while Bell was one step away from pumping gas for a living.  Oh, and the Sox finished 3rd in 1992, so Bell put up great numbers that year for a team that went nowhere.  I hate Sosa as much as anyone, but let's be real here.

During the Reinsdorf era, I'd say the Sox had 4 players with generational talent that they brought up from their minor league system:

- Thomas:  first ballot HOFer inducted as a Sox player
- Sosa:  traded away for one good season of George Bell while Sosa supercharged the Cubs popularity in Chicago, though later disgraced (and rightfully so)
- Tatis:  superstar for the Padres after traded for a washed up pitcher
- Chris Sale:  Elite starter for years before and after Sox traded him.  Traded in an attempt to stock the Sox system with talent for a rebuild.  But Moncada and Kopech were total flops.  Sox were never going to pay for an extension for him anyway.  

Am I missing anyone?  Not exactly a great track record for Jerry's franchise.  

 

No question... he doesn't feel players deserve what they are being paid. Never has since the mid-1980's. I remember reading years ago a quote from him where he said something along the lines of 'I didn't realize how much winning costs...' This was after the Sox had that great 1983 season and then guys all wanted raises. 

[nrockway]

Cubs got Sammy, Sox got Eloy. You take that 10 times out of 10. 

[wegner]

1 hour ago, 77 Hitmen said:

Sounds like I struck a nerve.  How does Bell's TOTAL RBI's for both 92 and 93 seasons help this team when they really needed him in 1993 when they went to the ALCS and only won 2 games against the Jays.  You didn't answer where Bell was during the 1993 playoffs.   As I said before, the Sox sure could have used Sammy's bat that year when he was knocking in 93 RBIs while Bell was one step away from pumping gas for a living.  Oh, and the Sox finished 3rd in 1992, so Bell put up great numbers that year for a team that went nowhere.  I hate Sosa as much as anyone, but let's be real here.

During the Reinsdorf era, I'd say the Sox had 4 players with generational talent that they brought up from their minor league system:

- Thomas:  first ballot HOFer inducted as a Sox player
- Sosa:  traded away for one good season of George Bell while Sosa supercharged the Cubs popularity in Chicago, though later disgraced (and rightfully so)
- Tatis:  superstar for the Padres after traded for a washed up pitcher
- Chris Sale:  Elite starter for years before and after Sox traded him.  Traded in an attempt to stock the Sox system with talent for a rebuild.  But Moncada and Kopech were total flops.  Sox were never going to pay for an extension for him anyway.  

Am I missing anyone?  Not exactly a great track record for Jerry's franchise.  

 

Sosa was not a product of Sox farm system...they got him in a trade with Texas.

[Lip Man 1]

44 minutes ago, wegner said:

Sosa was not a product of Sox farm system...they got him in a trade with Texas.

Correct along with Wilson Alvarez and Scott Fletcher for Harold Baines and Fred Manrique. 

[wegner]

17 minutes ago, Lip Man 1 said:

Correct along with Wilson Alvarez and Scott Fletcher for Harold Baines and Fred Manrique. 

I remember hating that trade....I loved Harold.

[caulfield12]

5 hours ago, 77 Hitmen said:

Sounds like I struck a nerve.  How does Bell's TOTAL RBI's for both 92 and 93 seasons help this team when they really needed him in 1993 when they went to the ALCS and only won 2 games against the Jays.  You didn't answer where Bell was during the 1993 playoffs.   As I said before, the Sox sure could have used Sammy's bat that year when he was knocking in 93 RBIs while Bell was one step away from pumping gas for a living.  Oh, and the Sox finished 3rd in 1992, so Bell put up great numbers that year for a team that went nowhere.  I hate Sosa as much as anyone, but let's be real here.

During the Reinsdorf era, I'd say the Sox had 4 players with generational talent that they brought up from their minor league system:

- Thomas:  first ballot HOFer inducted as a Sox player
- Sosa:  traded away for one good season of George Bell while Sosa supercharged the Cubs popularity in Chicago, though later disgraced (and rightfully so)
- Tatis:  superstar for the Padres after traded for a washed up pitcher
- Chris Sale:  Elite starter for years before and after Sox traded him.  Traded in an attempt to stock the Sox system with talent for a rebuild.  But Moncada and Kopech were total flops.  Sox were never going to pay for an extension for him anyway.  

Am I missing anyone?  Not exactly a great track record for Jerry's franchise.  

 

Crochet, Marcus Semien, Rodon arguably

[77 Hitmen]

12 hours ago, wegner said:

Sosa was not a product of Sox farm system...they got him in a trade with Texas.

You're right.  I knew they got him in a trade of course, but I thought he was a minor leaguer at the time who later came up to the majors for the Sox.   At any rate, he was at the very beginning of his MLB career when he came over to the Sox with only 25 games with the Rangers.

Edited July 8 by 77 Hitmen

[77 Hitmen]

On 7/7/2025 at 9:21 PM, Lip Man 1 said:

No question... he doesn't feel players deserve what they are being paid. Never has since the mid-1980's. I remember reading years ago a quote from him where he said something along the lines of 'I didn't realize how much winning costs...' This was after the Sox had that great 1983 season and then guys all wanted raises. 

And at least Jerry hired people in the first 20 years or so that could develop talent internally (the late 80s core and the late 90s/early 00s core).  That has mostly dried up over the last 20 years.

I know it's still to be seen if Crochet has nearly as much of a success as Sale in his career, but his trade followed the same pattern:  the Sox are so bad at fielding a winning team and developing talent, that he may as well be traded for some top prospects since he's being wasted here.   And the Sox were never going to pay him when he was up for free agency anyway if he gets good enough.   

Edited July 9 by 77 Hitmen

[champagne030]

16 hours ago, 77 Hitmen said:

Sounds like I struck a nerve.  How does Bell's TOTAL RBI's for both 92 and 93 seasons help this team when they really needed him in 1993 when they went to the ALCS and only won 2 games against the Jays.  You didn't answer where Bell was during the 1993 playoffs.   As I said before, the Sox sure could have used Sammy's bat that year when he was knocking in 93 RBIs while Bell was one step away from pumping gas for a living.  Oh, and the Sox finished 3rd in 1992, so Bell put up great numbers that year for a team that went nowhere.  I hate Sosa as much as anyone, but let's be real here.

During the Reinsdorf era, I'd say the Sox had 4 players with generational talent that they brought up from their minor league system:

- Thomas:  first ballot HOFer inducted as a Sox player
- Sosa:  traded away for one good season of George Bell while Sosa supercharged the Cubs popularity in Chicago, though later disgraced (and rightfully so)
- Tatis:  superstar for the Padres after traded for a washed up pitcher
- Chris Sale:  Elite starter for years before and after Sox traded him.  Traded in an attempt to stock the Sox system with talent for a rebuild.  But Moncada and Kopech were total flops.  Sox were never going to pay for an extension for him anyway.  

Am I missing anyone?  Not exactly a great track record for Jerry's franchise.  

 

Not to nitpick and I wouldn't actually call Buehrle and Ventura generational talents, but Robin's career WAR (either one) is right there with Shammy and Mark is currently  ahead of Sale too (either one or RA9-WAR).

[ThirdGen]

Sammy would never have had the same marketing effect with the Sox as he did with the Cubs.

The Chicago media was largely controlled by the Tribune, which did a masterful job of promoting Sammy as the shoeshine boy who made it big through hard work. They protected him from any questioning of his sudden physical transformation. The Cubs PR team threatened anyone questioning Sammy with being cut off from access.

If this had happened with him in a Sox uniform there would have been daily commentary about the disgraceful Sox cheating to win, and any championship won with him on the roster would have been deemed fraudulent. And the Sox have never been particularly good at PR.

[77 Hitmen]

3 hours ago, champagne030 said:

Not to nitpick and I wouldn't actually call Buehrle and Ventura generational talents, but Robin's career WAR (either one) is right there with Shammy and Mark is currently  ahead of Sale too (either one or RA9-WAR).

Fair enough.  I know my list is very subjective.  As far as Sale goes, it'll depend if he can have another few years of his 2024 performance to see where his legacy ends up.

[FloydBannister1983]

On 7/5/2025 at 3:09 PM, caulfield12 said:

90s Cubs baseball is when they pulled away with taking the city over for good, whether it was steroids-driven or not.

WGN Harry Caray and Sosa.

It’s like we are forgetting that Reinsdorf nearly singlehandedly caused the lockout in a year the Sox had a good chance to win the World Series.  Sox fans didn’t forgive that, which had nothing to do with Harry or Sosa.

[Lip Man 1]

31 minutes ago, FloydBannister1983 said:

It’s like we are forgetting that Reinsdorf nearly singlehandedly caused the lockout in a year the Sox had a good chance to win the World Series.  Sox fans didn’t forgive that, which had nothing to do with Harry or Sosa.

And don't forget the "White Flag Trade."

[kitekrazy]

2 hours ago, FloydBannister1983 said:

It’s like we are forgetting that Reinsdorf nearly singlehandedly caused the lockout in a year the Sox had a good chance to win the World Series.  Sox fans didn’t forgive that, which had nothing to do with Harry or Sosa.

Sox fans can't have nice things.  Cheapass owners are all like that.

[77 Hitmen]

17 hours ago, FloydBannister1983 said:

It’s like we are forgetting that Reinsdorf nearly singlehandedly caused the lockout in a year the Sox had a good chance to win the World Series.  Sox fans didn’t forgive that, which had nothing to do with Harry or Sosa.

 

17 hours ago, Lip Man 1 said:

And don't forget the "White Flag Trade."

You'll have to forgive us, it's difficult for long-suffering Sox fans to keep track of all the ways Jerry has damaged the Sox market share in Chicago.   Maybe a handy pocket guide or flow chart for the first 10,000 fans through the turnstiles to watch their 110th loss this year?

And while we're adding to the list of things we shouldn't forget - how about the whole New Comiskey debacle where JR and EE threatened to move the team to St. Pete and then had a generic, charmless new ballpark built that became outdated and widely disliked 1 year later when Camden Yards opened.  Has it ever been confirmed that Jerry was presented with an option to build a retro-park like what the O's did and he rejected it?  35 years later and we're still arguing (with people who aren't Sox fans and even amongst ourselves) about whether the park any is good or not.  

Earlier, Caulfield mentioned WGN in addition to Harry and Sosa.  Let's not forget the whole SportsVision debacle.  The Cubs having every game broadcast nationwide on WGN was beyond the Sox control, but JR and EE moved all but a few games to pay TV (for $15/month in 1982 dollars) and a whole generation of Chicago fans grew up watching the Cubs because the Sox were hardly ever on free TV.  Maybe 30 games/year on WFLD from 1982 onward?   I know it wasn't practical at the time to have every Sox game on free TV since WSNS switched to a pay TV service, but could the Sox have stuck with more free TV games on WGN?  In 1981, I believe WGN was scheduled to broadcast (before the strike cancelled a bunch of games) something like 60 Sox games.   But Jerry and Eddie didn't want 60 games on free TV because that would have undercut their pay TV scheme.  

 

 

Edited July 9 by 77 Hitmen

[Lip Man 1]

38 minutes ago, 77 Hitmen said:

 

You'll have to forgive us, it's difficult for long-suffering Sox fans to keep track of all the ways Jerry has damaged the Sox market share in Chicago.   Maybe a handy pocket guide or flow chart for the first 10,000 fans through the turnstiles to watch their 110th loss this year?

And while we're adding to the list of things we shouldn't forget - how about the whole New Comiskey debacle where JR and EE threatened to move the team to St. Pete and then had a generic, charmless new ballpark built that became outdated and widely disliked 1 year later when Camden Yards opened.  Has it ever been confirmed that Jerry was presented with an option to build a retro-park like what the O's did and he rejected it?  35 years later and we're still arguing (with people who aren't Sox fans and even amongst ourselves) about whether the park any is good or not.  

Earlier, Caulfield mentioned WGN in addition to Harry and Sosa.  Let's not forget the whole SportsVision debacle.  The Cubs having every game broadcast nationwide on WGN was beyond the Sox control, but JR and EE moved all but a few games to pay TV (for $15/month in 1982 dollars) and a whole generation of Chicago fans grew up watching the Cubs because the Sox were hardly ever on free TV.  Maybe 30 games/year on WFLD from 1982 onward?   I know it wasn't practical at the time to have every Sox game on free TV since WSNS switched to a pay TV service, but could the Sox have stuck with more free TV games on WGN?  In 1981, I believe WGN was scheduled to broadcast (before the strike cancelled a bunch of games) something like 60 Sox games.   But Jerry and Eddie didn't want 60 games on free TV because that would have undercut their pay TV scheme.  

 

 

From my history of SportsVision chapter for a forthcoming book by Dr. Fletcher and the Chicago Baseball Museum:

Einhorn was appalled when he got a look at the White Sox TV deal. In 1980, then Sox owner Bill Veeck signed a deal with Charles Dolan of Cablevision, an East Coast company that was getting into the cable TV market. The two-year deal gave the Sox $6,000 per game, WGN-TV also got the rights to show 60 Sox road games a season. 

The total worth of the deal to the Sox was only $840,000 a year. Dolan was a very sharp operator who took Veeck to the cleaners. Veeck, like most old-time owners, felt that television was nice to have, but the real way to make money in baseball was at the gate. 

Einhorn overturned the deal and came up with the idea for SportsVision which became a reality in May 1982. The idea was to get Chicago sports fans to sign up for the service which would provide a steady diet of White Sox games, primarily home games, along with the Chicago Bulls, Chicago Blackhawks and Chicago Sting. The channel would be provided by local and area cable services as a premium service. At the time of launching, it cost most fans $50 just to get it installed as it required a special descrambler, not counting the monthly fee which varied from system to system. 

The idea proved to be a failure as the original target of 50,000 subscribers was never met. Even during the playoff season of 1983 the subscriber base was far short of the original goal. The Sox claimed to have 30,000 subscribers but Bob Logan in his book, "Miracle On 35^th Street: Winnin’ Ugly with the 1983 Chicago White Sox" wrote the actual total was closer to 20,000. Einhorn then wanted to change the service to a true pay-per-view option and charge three dollars per game to watch, but that never became a reality. 

Eventually SportsVision was sold off to Dolan and Cablevision and changed into SportsChannel-Chicago, part of a group of regional sports channels which then was absorbed by Rupert Murdoch and his Fox Broadcasting Company and changed into Fox Sports Chicago, which was part of the nationwide blanket of Fox regional sports affiliates. Eventually that regional network became Comcast Sports Chicago, then NBC Sports Chicago before being completely shut down.