Trading Deadline

[WhiteSox2023]

11 minutes ago, Bob Sacamano said:

What would Vargas even be worth? Since they traded for him, he had a stretch of being the worst hitter, then from end of April through like May he was good, and since he’s been bad again. He is young and has time on his side though.

If many posters here don’t think he’s a good enough long-term option for the Sox at either 3B or 1B, I doubt the Cubs would want him at 3B either.

Edited July 8 by WhiteSox2023

[bmags]

I'm betting on Vargas. He's had rough stretches, but he has very high baseball IQ. The sox had a good decade stretch of zero baseball players you could say that about.

[WestEddy]

1 hour ago, Bob Sacamano said:

What would Vargas even be worth? Since they traded for him, he had a stretch of being the worst hitter, then from end of April through like May he was good, and since he’s been bad again. He is young and has time on his side though.

Vargas was ass for his first 22 games. He OPSed .890 from 4/23-6/22. He then dropped off and got one hit in 9 games. He's hit in 2 of the last 3. 

This is what "playing the kids and letting them figure it out in the bigs" looks like. This is his first full season in the big leagues. The fact that he'll probably put it together again and clear 2 bWAR by the end of the season is a tremendous win.

[Bob Sacamano]

13 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

Vargas was ass for his first 22 games. He OPSed .890 from 4/23-6/22. He then dropped off and got one hit in 9 games. He's hit in 2 of the last 3. 

This is what "playing the kids and letting them figure it out in the bigs" looks like. This is his first full season in the big leagues. The fact that he'll probably put it together again and clear 2 bWAR by the end of the season is a tremendous win.

I don’t disagree with anything you said. I was just pointing out that it would be hard to figure out his value. He’s been cold and with so much control, better off just holding onto him. I think he will figure it out though. I love his approach at the plate.

[fathom]

11 minutes ago, Bob Sacamano said:

I don’t disagree with anything you said. I was just pointing out that it would be hard to figure out his value. He’s been cold and with so much control, better off just holding onto him. I think he will figure it out though. I love his approach at the plate.

He just needs to pull the ball.  There must be some weakness/hole in his swing that causes so many pop ups to the right side

[WestEddy]

30 minutes ago, Bob Sacamano said:

I don’t disagree with anything you said. I was just pointing out that it would be hard to figure out his value. He’s been cold and with so much control, better off just holding onto him. I think he will figure it out though. I love his approach at the plate.

Oh, yeah. I agree. There's no way to value him right now, but I think he's shown the propensity to work on his game. I wanted to tag onto the convo, and picked on you. 

[Bob Sacamano]

12 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

Oh, yeah. I agree. There's no way to value him right now, but I think he's shown the propensity to work on his game. I wanted to tag onto the convo, and picked on you. 

lol all good

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

1 hour ago, WestEddy said:

Vargas was ass for his first 22 games. He OPSed .890 from 4/23-6/22. He then dropped off and got one hit in 9 games. He's hit in 2 of the last 3. 

This is what "playing the kids and letting them figure it out in the bigs" looks like. This is his first full season in the big leagues. The fact that he'll probably put it together again and clear 2 bWAR by the end of the season is a tremendous win.

I agree with letting them play, but the cornerstone of the offense today being worth 1.5 fWAR is far from a tremendous win IMO.

Also, baseball is a streaky game naturally. You really can't just cherry pick the peak periods and say that's the ability. That's the same stuff that tricked people with Vaughn. Almost everyone in the big leagues can get hot and carry teams.. Chris Shelton mania.

I said at the beginning of the year that Vargas would justify himself as an everyday MLB starter. Which I think he's really close to doing but he certainly hasn't proven it yet. His xwOBA is in the 35th percentile, and he's an average (at best) fielder and base runner. He also has 831 career MLB AB's so I think we're really reaching talking about his first season.

Edit: The fact that no one here would talk about Sosa the way they're talking about Vargas says a lot, given that they've been basically the same player from a value perspective despite SOsa having 100 fewer AB's.

Edited July 8 by Look at Ray Ray Run

[WhiteSox2023]

And obviously Vargas is more valuable than a guy like Andrew Vaughn due to their respective defense, but Vargas is nearing 1,000 plate appearances for his career (he’s at around 39% of Vaughn’s career PA’s) and he’s been an even worse hitter thus far.  And almost everyone was excited to see Vaughn go because he can’t hit.

Edited July 8 by WhiteSox2023

[WestEddy]

1 hour ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

I agree with letting them play, but the cornerstone of the offense today being worth 1.5 fWAR is far from a tremendous win IMO.

Also, baseball is a streaky game naturally. You really can't just cherry pick the peak periods and say that's the ability. That's the same stuff that tricked people with Vaughn. Almost everyone in the big leagues can get hot and carry teams.. Chris Shelton mania.

I said at the beginning of the year that Vargas would justify himself as an everyday MLB starter. Which I think he's really close to doing but he certainly hasn't proven it yet. His xwOBA is in the 35th percentile, and he's an average (at best) fielder and base runner. He also has 831 career MLB AB's so I think we're really reaching talking about his first season.

Edit: The fact that no one here would talk about Sosa the way they're talking about Vargas says a lot, given that they've been basically the same player from a value perspective despite SOsa having 100 fewer AB's.

There are multiple conversations around Vargas due to his acquisition, Getz' judgement, Sox development, etc. Sosa doesn't inspire multiple angles. Nobody's going to declare Sosa a bust to kill the buzz around a trade. 

I think both have value. Vargas looks like he can be an adequate fielder. Sosa inspires doubt about his defense. 

[WestEddy]

1 hour ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

And obviously Vargas is more valuable than a guy like Andrew Vaughn due to their respective defense, but Vargas is nearing 1,000 plate appearances for his career (he’s at around 39% of Vaughn’s career PA’s) and he’s been an even worse hitter thus far.  And almost everyone was excited to see Vaughn go because he can’t hit.

If Vargas enters June of 2026 OPSing .530 with no change in sight, I think we all will be ready to give the next guy a shot at his at-bats. 

[WhiteSox2023]

15 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

There are multiple conversations around Vargas due to his acquisition, Getz' judgement, Sox development, etc. Sosa doesn't inspire multiple angles. Nobody's going to declare Sosa a bust to kill the buzz around a trade. 

I think both have value. Vargas looks like he can be an adequate fielder. Sosa inspires doubt about his defense. 

“Little patience
Need a little patience, yeah
Just a little patience, yeah”

The defense is definitely an issue but also Sosa has 64 strikeouts and only 7 walks.  😞  He could be a really good hitter if he figured that out, but I guess we could say the same thing about a ton of players.

Edited July 8 by WhiteSox2023

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

9 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

“Little patience
Need a little patience, yeah
Just a little patience, yeah”

Sosa with 64 strikeouts and only 7 walks.  😞  But I guess we could say that about a ton of players.

It makes his skill set more volatile, and much more likely to fall off a cliff at some point, but players sustaining success at those levels isn't uncommon for the first 5-6 years of their career. It seems to be a challenge post-30 though.

As for Defense, Sosa just does really dumb things that enrage a fan more. By most metrics, Sosa has been the better defender but he is a bit of a bonehead sometimes.

[southsider2k5]

13 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

It makes his skill set more volatile, and much more likely to fall off a cliff at some point, but players sustaining success at those levels isn't uncommon for the first 5-6 years of their career. It seems to be a challenge post-30 though.

As for Defense, Sosa just does really dumb things that enrage a fan more. By most metrics, Sosa has been the better defender but he is a bit of a bonehead sometimes.

Well that an Sosa and Vargas have never been regarded as equals, so no one expected the same final result from them.  The fact that Sosas results have been within shouting distance of Vargas is the only reason to even compare the two.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

On 7/5/2025 at 8:02 AM, Chicago White Sox said:

I said it in the gamethread, but you 100% trade Houser.  Assuming we trade none of these guys, you are looking at something like the below for next year:

1. Smith
2. Burke
3. Schultz
4. Thorpe
5. Martin
6. Cannon
7. Adams
8. Bush

By all means add some cheap veterans to the mix as we know injuries can quickly change the outlook of a staff, but you don’t pass on cashing in on Houser right now (assuming he has value) and agree to a multi year deal that makes it harder for these kids to get opportunities.

Schultz is avg 4.8 bb per 9 with nearly a 5 era and a significant reduction in his stuff quality regardless of what getz says. 

There's not a pitcher on that list that should prevent you from signing genuine mlb starters.

[Chicago White Sox]

21 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Schultz is avg 4.8 bb per 9 with nearly a 5 era and a significant reduction in his stuff quality regardless of what getz says. 

There's not a pitcher on that list that should prevent you from signing genuine mlb starters.

Where did I say not to sign MLB starters?  I mean, the post literally says go ahead and add some cheap veterans to the mix.  But if you are going to sign a SP to a multi-year deal and block some of the kids, it should be for someone far more impactful than Houser.  Do you feel otherwise?

@WhiteSox2023 - Oh look, another post where I said we should 100% trade Houser…🤔

[WhiteSox2023]

30 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Where did I say not to sign MLB starters?  I mean, the post literally says go ahead and add some cheap veterans to the mix.  But if you are going to sign a SP to a multi-year deal and block some of the kids, it should be for someone far more impactful than Houser.  Do you feel otherwise?

@WhiteSox2023 - Oh look, another post where I said we should 100% trade Houser…🤔

Congrats, now work on your sarcasm detector.  🤣👍🏻

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

7 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Where did I say not to sign MLB starters?  I mean, the post literally says go ahead and add some cheap veterans to the mix.  But if you are going to sign a SP to a multi-year deal and block some of the kids, it should be for someone far more impactful than Houser.  Do you feel otherwise?

@WhiteSox2023 - Oh look, another post where I said we should 100% trade Houser…🤔

Yeah, im not worried about blocking anyone. Talent forces the issue on it's own. None of the arms you listed are worthy of limiting your acquisitions. In fact, the big three coming into this season of schultz/Taylor and Smith have all flopped as starters so far this season. Its been by far the most disappointing part of the season in my opinion. 

[Timmy U]

The list of possible starters in 2026 should include McDougal. Getz just name checked him as a guy who may get innings this year. Kid is Rule 5 eligible. He is on the cusp.

[ptatc]

8 hours ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Schultz is avg 4.8 bb per 9 with nearly a 5 era and a significant reduction in his stuff quality regardless of what getz says. 

There's not a pitcher on that list that should prevent you from signing genuine mlb starters.

They've been changing his pitch mix and having him work on different ones.

Well see what he looks like when he is is in the MLB at the end of the year.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

37 minutes ago, ptatc said:

They've been changing his pitch mix and having him work on different ones.

Well see what he looks like when he is is in the MLB at the end of the year.

He certainly doesnt deserve to be in the big leagues, and yes ive read about their "changes." I've also read them claim the quality of stuff hasn't changed which is a flat out lie. 

[ptatc]

33 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

He certainly doesnt deserve to be in the big leagues, and yes ive read about their "changes." I've also read them claim the quality of stuff hasn't changed which is a flat out lie. 

From listening to Getz and Bannister they will have him up to get used to the MLB before being un the rotation next year.

For certain players there is more to progress than straight numbers.

By analytics his stuff is pretty much the same adjusted for fatigue with the increased workload by reports. That's a key factor. Its his command that is the issue.

[Chicago White Sox]

2 hours ago, Timmy U said:

The list of possible starters in 2026 should include McDougal. Getz just name checked him as a guy who may get innings this year. Kid is Rule 5 eligible. He is on the cusp.

My list was more intended to reflect OD options, but perhaps he’s going to keep moving much faster than anticipated.

[Chicago White Sox]

2 hours ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Yeah, im not worried about blocking anyone. Talent forces the issue on its own. None of the arms you listed are worthy of limiting your acquisitions. In fact, the big three coming into this season of schultz/Taylor and Smith have all flopped as starters so far this season. It’s been by far the most disappointing part of the season in my opinion. 

Sure, but doing multi year deals on C tier free agents in general is bad process.  I am not concerned about “blocking” the kids if we go out and add meaningful SP to anchor the rotation.  But I don’t want to commit dollars to guys that we are hoping will be replaced in the near future.  On a one year deal?  No concerns there.  But under no circumstance am extending a guy like Houser multiple years.

I 100% believe that we need to give guys like Thorpe & Adams extended runways next year (if healthy) to show what they are capable of, just like we are doing with Burke, Smith, Cannon, & Martin right now.  Those guys may not work out, but it’s the right thing to do given where we are at in the rebuild.  If Ishbia wants to go out and spend a fuckton of money, I’d probably feel very different.  But honestly, I think best case scenario we are two years away from a massive payroll injection and therefore continue to give playing time to young guys where you have them and SP is one spot we have a lot of semi-interesting arms on the cusp.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

1 hour ago, ptatc said:

From listening to Getz and Bannister they will have him up to get used to the MLB before being un the rotation next year.

For certain players there is more to progress than straight numbers.

By analytics his stuff is pretty much the same adjusted for fatigue with the increased workload by reports. That's a key factor. Its his command that is the issue.

Honestly, if you and the White Sox truly believe his stuff is the same then there is much more reason to worry.

From my perspective, I'm not seeing that at all so I'm less worried as I think this is the outcome of tinkering that frankly didn't need to occur. Sometimes, it's best to let great ride for as long as the tank allows for it.

And adjusting for fatigue? Come on.... he's thrown 68 innings. What weight are you adding to account for the "fatigue."

Lastly, command is 35-45% (depending on the model/who you ask) of stuff quality. So saying it's just command is like saying someones fastball just lost 4 MPH. Losing command is as detrimental to development as losing velo or spin.