Look at Ray Ray Run Posted September 17 Share Posted September 17 The red sox are 20-9 in games started by crochet. They're 62-60 in games not started by crochet. The red sox are legit not a playoff team without garrett crochet. That's how valuable he is. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Look at Ray Ray Run Posted September 17 Share Posted September 17 2 minutes ago, T R U said: What you're saying isn't wrong in general but its definitely wrong in terms of the White Sox of today. The White Sox of today are never going to re-enforce the roster around that elite talent. If Teel and Montgomery become 3-4 WAR players with Meidroth a 2-3 WAR player and Gonzalez being a usable arm on the MLB team that is far more valuable to the Sox than a 6 WAR pitcher who is surrounded by underperformers, journeyman, or mid tier free agents. The Sox were never going to resign Crochet anyways, so you either get 4 chances to get good contributors to your team or you let him walk away and get 1 comp pick. So the jury is still out if it becomes a huge win, because it certainly could if all 4 of those guys pan out, but it will be a win regardless because there was never a chance the Sox were going to keep Crochet here and they pretty much got a max return for him. I've said this 100 times before but I won't change what I believe to be the right and optimal way to build a team just because the White Sox are cheap as s%*#. It doesn't change how I evaluate trades or what I expect of them as an organization. Montgomery being a 4 WAR player is a monster IF at this point. His career projected WAR is barely 4. I think he's got the tools, but that doesn't promise anything. If they net a starting catcher and below average infielder for a generational talent, then they lose the trade. It's simply in my opinion. Garrett is going to end up looking like a bargain at his contract too if he stays healthy. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T R U Posted September 17 Share Posted September 17 3 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said: I've said this 100 times before but I won't change what I believe to be the right and optimal way to build a team just because the White Sox are cheap as s%*#. It doesn't change how I evaluate trades or what I expect of them as an organization. Montgomery being a 4 WAR player is a monster IF at this point. His career projected WAR is barely 4. I think he's got the tools, but that doesn't promise anything. If they net a starting catcher and below average infielder for a generational talent, then they lose the trade. It's simply in my opinion. Garrett is going to end up looking like a bargain at his contract too if he stays healthy. Again, I agree with you overall about the optimal way to build a team. You should never let elite players leave, but the White Sox ARE cheap as s%*# so the reality is you watch them keep Crochet and let him walk away for a comp pick or you trade him for a high level package of prospects that could produce 3-4 contributors. The Sox aren't going to go out and sign a handful of 3-4 WAR players in free agency, hopefully this all changes once JR is out and well be talking about resigning the elite guys instead of shipping them out. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted September 17 Share Posted September 17 The Red Sox missed the playoffs 3/4 or 4/5 years or whatever that streak is... Making the playoffs (finally) again and replacing the Devers deal with Anthony and Crochet is a big win for them. They kept their three most important young players in that trade. Meidroth was never going to factor into the equation for them. They already had a boatload of outfielders as well as Narvaez at catcher, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUSTgottaBELIEVE Posted September 17 Share Posted September 17 3 hours ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said: A huge win? I don't think most people here understand how valuable a 6 WAR arm is. Rarity alone means chase meidroth isnt really adding much in my opinion. Getting league average to below average players for an elite talent isnt a win. Thankfully it looks like Teel is going to be a guy so thats a plus! If meidroth and Teel were all they had to show for a top 3 arm, unless Teel becomes a HOF catcher, that certainly wouldnt be a huge win. If Teel is a 5 WAR player and Meidroth is a 3 WAR player both on league minimum salaries for the next few years, yes it is a huge win and greater surplus value than Crochet on his contract no matter how great Crochet is. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUSTgottaBELIEVE Posted September 17 Share Posted September 17 4 hours ago, caulfield12 said: Not if they never get out of fifth place. The impact of one Cy Young winner on an organization is worth a lot more than 1.5 fWAR points. Where would the Tigers be without Skubal, or the Royals without Witt? The Twins without Buxton, etc. You still need star players for White Sox fans to get really excited and believe in their team. Even guys like Sale and Abreu weren't enough...because the roster was pretty mediocre from #11-25. Without Braden...you don't have a genuine middle of the order hitter to supplement Teel and Colson. You need to have at least 3. Arguably four wI think a below average rotation and pen. Right now they're more like 1 1/2...Colson needs to be a lot closer to 240 than 200. That strikeout rate is just crazy the last weeks or so. Haven’t the Brewers disproved the notion you need star players to win? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUSTgottaBELIEVE Posted September 17 Share Posted September 17 3 hours ago, T R U said: What you're saying isn't wrong in general but its definitely wrong in terms of the White Sox of today. The White Sox of today are never going to re-enforce the roster around that elite talent. If Teel and Montgomery become 3-4 WAR players with Meidroth a 2-3 WAR player and Gonzalez being a usable arm on the MLB team that is far more valuable to the Sox than a 6 WAR pitcher who is surrounded by underperformers, journeyman, or mid tier free agents. The Sox were never going to resign Crochet anyways, so you either get 4 chances to get good contributors to your team or you let him walk away and get 1 comp pick. So the jury is still out if it becomes a huge win, because it certainly could if all 4 of those guys pan out, but it will be a win regardless because there was never a chance the Sox were going to keep Crochet here and they pretty much got a max return for him. Sox don’t need all 4 guys to pan out for it to be a huge win. Look, Crochet is already an established top 3 SP but if Teel is a top 3 catcher and Meidroth is a top 5 second baseman (both would project as such or very close to over a full season based on their production so far this season) that’s a great outcome for the Sox on a production level alone. Then you factor in their years of cheap control/surplus value and it’s a huge win. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Look at Ray Ray Run Posted September 17 Share Posted September 17 28 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said: If Teel is a 5 WAR player and Meidroth is a 3 WAR player both on league minimum salaries for the next few years, yes it is a huge win and greater surplus value than Crochet on his contract no matter how great Crochet is. There haven't been more than 2 5WAR catchers in a season since 2013. Only 3 catchers have averaged 5+ WAR per year over a 4+ year stretch in the past 30 years -- they'll all be hall of famers. If the Sox get a Hall of Fame catcher for Crochet, I would agree it's a reasonable deal as I said earlier. I have high hopes for Teel, but I'm not sure I'm ready to call him Buster Posey Jr. yet. Meidroth being a league average or below league average infielder doesn't really move the needle. Him being a consistent 3 WAR player is quite the reach from the skill's he's shown now, but hopefully he'll surprise me! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Look at Ray Ray Run Posted September 17 Share Posted September 17 24 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said: Sox don’t need all 4 guys to pan out for it to be a huge win. Look, Crochet is already an established top 3 SP but if Teel is a top 3 catcher and Meidroth is a top 5 second baseman (both would project as such or very close to over a full season based on their production so far this season) that’s a great outcome for the Sox on a production level alone. Then you factor in their years of cheap control/surplus value and it’s a huge win. Meidroth is a long way from being a top 5 second baseman and the problem with him is it's very possible he's already a maxed out player. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Sacamano Posted September 17 Share Posted September 17 (edited) Definitely like what I've seen lately. Need to add a power bat (potentially 2), 2 legit starters (maybe a third back end guy) and a couple relievers this offseason. Kind of a tall order when you somewhat expect them to not add before the strike. Edited September 17 by Bob Sacamano Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Look at Ray Ray Run Posted September 17 Share Posted September 17 41 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said: Haven’t the Brewers disproved the notion you need star players to win? The Brewers have 9 guys who have 200+ PA's who have a wRC+ of 110 or better (Range is 110-144 Vaughn ha). If you can fill an entire lineup with guys who are 10%+ better than league average, you'll have a really good offense. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUSTgottaBELIEVE Posted September 17 Share Posted September 17 (edited) 58 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said: There haven't been more than 2 5WAR catchers in a season since 2013. Only 3 catchers have averaged 5+ WAR per year over a 4+ year stretch in the past 30 years -- they'll all be hall of famers. If the Sox get a Hall of Fame catcher for Crochet, I would agree it's a reasonable deal as I said earlier. I have high hopes for Teel, but I'm not sure I'm ready to call him Buster Posey Jr. yet. Meidroth being a league average or below league average infielder doesn't really move the needle. Him being a consistent 3 WAR player is quite the reach from the skill's he's shown now, but hopefully he'll surprise me! Um, Meidroth is a 2.1 fWAR player right now in a partial season. Teel is at 2.0 with far less playing time. You’re a smart guy. Do the math and tell me what those project out to over a full season. Again, I’m not saying they are a lock to repeat these production rates next season and beyond but if they do it’s a huge win of a trade. Edited September 17 by JUSTgottaBELIEVE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUSTgottaBELIEVE Posted September 17 Share Posted September 17 49 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said: The Brewers have 9 guys who have 200+ PA's who have a wRC+ of 110 or better (Range is 110-144 Vaughn ha). If you can fill an entire lineup with guys who are 10%+ better than league average, you'll have a really good offense. Exactly! Not stars, just a bunch of really solid players like Meidroth and Teel! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted September 17 Share Posted September 17 5 hours ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said: The red sox are 20-9 in games started by crochet. They're 62-60 in games not started by crochet. The red sox are legit not a playoff team without garrett crochet. That's how valuable he is. Sale was valuable too. That's why I like the old way of building a team. When in bad years you are at least .500. Good years to decent years you win the pathetic division. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Look at Ray Ray Run Posted September 17 Share Posted September 17 59 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said: Um, Meidroth is a 2.1 fWAR player right now in a partial season. Teel is at 2.0 with far less playing time. You’re a smart guy. Do the math and tell me what those project out to over a full season. Again, I’m not saying they are a lock to repeat these production rates next season and beyond but if they do it’s a huge win of a trade. This isnt how statistics work. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lip Man 1 Posted September 17 Share Posted September 17 (edited) 2 hours ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said: Haven’t the Brewers disproved the notion you need star players to win? Depends on your point of view. They've had tremendous success but come playoff time you need guys who can carry a team by them selves if needed. Milwaukee hasn't had a lot of post season success and I think that's one reason. Very, VERY solid team but put a Harper or an Ohtani on that club and they'd really be dangerous. Having a superstar or two really helps, don't minimize this. Edited September 17 by Lip Man 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FloydBannister1983 Posted September 17 Share Posted September 17 5 hours ago, T R U said: Again, I agree with you overall about the optimal way to build a team. You should never let elite players leave, but the White Sox ARE cheap as s%*# so the reality is you watch them keep Crochet and let him walk away for a comp pick or you trade him for a high level package of prospects that could produce 3-4 contributors. The Sox aren't going to go out and sign a handful of 3-4 WAR players in free agency, hopefully this all changes once JR is out and well be talking about resigning the elite guys instead of shipping them out. Even if the desire to sign guys like this changes once Reinsdorf is gone that still won't change the perception from players around the league that the White Sox are a less than desirable place to sign. There will be a White Sox Premium that other teams don't pay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoUEvenShift Posted September 17 Share Posted September 17 2 hours ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said: Haven’t the Brewers disproved the notion you need star players to win? What do you mean they have no star players? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Look at Ray Ray Run Posted September 17 Share Posted September 17 58 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said: Exactly! Not stars, just a bunch of really solid players like Meidroth and Teel! I guess you justgottabelieve. The Sox three of those guys now and 1 of them is 36. Meidroth amazingly is not one of those guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FloydBannister1983 Posted September 17 Share Posted September 17 1 hour ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said: Um, Meidroth is a 2.1 fWAR player right now in a partial season. Teel is at 2.0 with far less playing time. You’re a smart guy. Do the math and tell me what those project out to over a full season. Again, I’m not saying they are a lock to repeat these production rates next season and beyond but if they do it’s a huge win of a trade. This math only works in my APBA 54 game season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lip Man 1 Posted September 17 Share Posted September 17 The title of the thread is "genuine progress" and they have actually had some... JR is a year older. That's progress in my opinion. We are one year closer to Ishbia taking over at some point. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
77 Hitmen Posted September 17 Share Posted September 17 36 minutes ago, Lip Man 1 said: The title of the thread is "genuine progress" and they have actually had some... JR is a year older. That's progress in my opinion. We are one year closer to Ishbia taking over at some point. Amen. The team might not be 100+ losses bad over the next couple of seasons, but until Jerry's no longer running the show, we'll be treading water at best. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soxrwhite Posted September 17 Share Posted September 17 This has gotten so painful..............It just feels hopeless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lip Man 1 Posted September 17 Share Posted September 17 1 minute ago, soxrwhite said: This has gotten so painful..............It just feels hopeless. It IS hopeless until Ishbia takes over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted September 18 Share Posted September 18 5 hours ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said: Haven’t the Brewers disproved the notion you need star players to win? To win it all, sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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