5 minutes ago, hi8is said:

Shades of when we drafted him…

I’m not confident that these three up three down mean it’s all better now. This has been a problem for Hagen since college. I want him to succeeed but this just seems to be putting a tremendous amount of confidence in something we have never seen him maintain

3 hours ago, almagest said:

Not sure I want a guy who gets hit so hard it sounds like the fake ESPN contact sound.

He gave up two solo shots that game.

“Detmers struck out nine over five solid innings in a no-decision in a 3-2 loss to the Astros on Tuesday night at Angel Stadium. He’s been on an impressive run, as he’s posted a 1.65 ERA with 22 strikeouts and three walks in 16 1/3 innings over his last three outings to open the second half.”

Any contenting team should want that.

2 minutes ago, Kyyle23 said:

I’m not confident that these three up three down mean it’s all better now. This has been a problem for Hagen since college. I want him to succeeed but this just seems to be putting a tremendous amount of confidence in something we have never seen him maintain

Of course the concern is real but it’s also real that his performance has improved since the move to the pen… which has been limited but certainly more than those three hitters.

Just provided it as an example to view how he looks out of the pen.

Much more aggressive. Seems like he’s also throwing harder too.

Edited 3 hours ago3 hr by hi8is

6 minutes ago, hi8is said:

Of course the concern is real but it’s also real that his performance has improved since the move to the pen… which has been limited but certainly more than those three hitters.

Just provided it as an example to view how he looks out of the pen.

Much more aggressive. Seems like he’s also throwing harder too.

What I’m really worried about is the same thing we just saw happen with Schultz plays out in front of us: nobody has the patience for these kids figuring it out because all of our expectations have changed and been updated. Then you get to the point where we have a very real amount of fans who are completely done with Schultz, because he isn’t “there” yet. What happens with Hagen if he comes out and can’t hit the broadside of a barn because he knows that he was just inserted into the bullpen of a team in the playoff hunt?

1 minute ago, Kyyle23 said:

What I’m really worried about is the same thing we just saw happen with Schultz plays out in front of us: nobody has the patience for these kids figuring it out because all of our expectations have changed and been updated. Then you get to the point where we have a very real amount of fans who are completely done with Schultz, because he isn’t “there” yet. What happens with Hagen if he comes out and can’t hit the broadside of a barn because he knows that he was just inserted into the bullpen of a team in the playoff hunt?

Predictable thing is predictable.

6 minutes ago, Kyyle23 said:

What I’m really worried about is the same thing we just saw happen with Schultz plays out in front of us: nobody has the patience for these kids figuring it out because all of our expectations have changed and been updated. Then you get to the point where we have a very real amount of fans who are completely done with Schultz, because he isn’t “there” yet. What happens with Hagen if he comes out and can’t hit the broadside of a barn because he knows that he was just inserted into the bullpen of a team in the playoff hunt?

Sounds like what happened with Crochet

17 minutes ago, hi8is said:

He gave up two solo shots that game.

“Detmers struck out nine over five solid innings in a no-decision in a 3-2 loss to the Astros on Tuesday night at Angel Stadium. He’s been on an impressive run, as he’s posted a 1.65 ERA with 22 strikeouts and three walks in 16 1/3 innings over his last three outings to open the second half.”

Any contenting team should want that.

It was a joke. I'd be happy with Detmers, though I do have more concerns about him than some do here and I would hesitate to meet the Angels supposed current asking price.

How does Detmers compare to Jose Quintana when we traded him to the Cubs? Seems like neither are/were considered an elite pitcher, but then you look at the stats and you realize they are pretty damn good.

Quintana did have one more year of control than Detmers has, if I recall correctly, but I was shocked we got both Eloy and Cease.

Gotta think today will force Tigers to trade Skubal.

Just now, fathom said:

Gotta think today will force Tigers to trade Skubal.

The problem with the Tigers is that they need a lot of bullpen help if they want to keep Skubal. I think today's game basically proved that.

Their choices are buy relievers or sell Skubal. Sitting pat is not really an option.

Just now, chw42 said:

The problem with the Tigers is that they need a lot of bullpen help if they want to keep Skubal. I think today's game basically proved that.

Their choices are buy relievers or sell Skubal. Sitting pat is not really an option.

Not trading him would be a disaster for them.

2 minutes ago, SoxBlanco said:

How does Detmers compare to Jose Quintana when we traded him to the Cubs? Seems like neither are/were considered an elite pitcher, but then you look at the stats and you realize they are pretty damn good.

Quintana did have one more year of control than Detmers has, if I recall correctly, but I was shocked we got both Eloy and Cease.

The extra year of control for Quintana is worth a lot of value. I think Quintana wasn't even in arbitration yet when he got traded, so he was making peanuts. While Determs will be cost controlled, he's heading into his Arb2 and Arb3 years, meaning he's gonna make something close to $20 million for the next few seasons. It's not expensive, but it's also not $5 million. Also, I think Quintana was actually a more proven pitcher than Detmers at the time they traded him. He was a 4-5 WAR pitcher for the 3 years prior to the trade. Detmers doesn't have that kind of track record.

Edited 2 hours ago2 hr by chw42

9 minutes ago, SoxBlanco said:

How does Detmers compare to Jose Quintana when we traded him to the Cubs? Seems like neither are/were considered an elite pitcher, but then you look at the stats and you realize they are pretty damn good.

Quintana did have one more year of control than Detmers has, if I recall correctly, but I was shocked we got both Eloy and Cease.

Quintana was signed to a dirt cheap extension with a longer track record.

8 minutes ago, PaleAleSox said:

Not trading him would be a disaster for them.

10 minutes ago, fathom said:

Gotta think today will force Tigers to trade Skubal.

I really hope they sit on him, because he is worth an absolute HAUL and we don't want Detroit re-arming in the short term.

2 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Dude…this is nowhere close to reality. Detmers is a former top 50 prospect who finally figured things out under Mike Maddux and who currently has the peripherals of a high end SP. His value with 2 1/3 years of control is going to be very high. People pay for expected go-forward performance and not past.

Meanwhile, Lodise isn’t even an org top 20 guy for me and Bergolla is semi interesting due to age & hit tool, but lacks ceiling and is also currently injured again. They are nothing but secondary pieces in a trade for Detmers. Fine if you don’t like the player or price, but let’s avoid creating false realities here.

I can just about guarantee you that no MLB front office thinks Reid Detmers is anywhere close to a high end SP. His upside is mid rotation and is historically a swingman. He only has one pitch that's actually good, it seems more realistic to expect that he's a setup man more than a #1 or even #2 starter. This 'peripherals' discussion tends to be overstated; perhaps some of the indicators are occasionally correlated to future success when the player is, like, 22-years-old. At a certain point, a player has enough of a track record that you can just look at the numbers at face value. Guy is 27 and in his 6th MLB season. His so-called 'peripherals' were better out of the bullpen anyway and he still pitched to a 4 ERA.

Some of the offers discussed here are better value than what the Sox got for Cease and approaching the Crochet haul. And I bet you the Red Sox wish they didn't make that trade. I'm sure they'd be much happier with Teel, Braden, Chase, Wikelman, Early than Crochet and Mead (even if they weren't injured). I mean, if 4.61 ERA Detmers nets you the #2 and #3 players in the system (51 and 57 overall) + another piece, the Sox would be complete fools not to trade one or both of Davis Martin and Sean Burke. Both of those guys are much better and have more control, so maybe you're talking about 2 top 20 prospects, right?

If I were a betting man, I'd bet on Detmers staying put because he won't command anywhere close to what you're speculating. I also think it would be a fucking shame if the Sox trade real assets for Detmers or a guy like him just to pitch 30-40 innings the rest of the way and for the Sox to finish in 4th place because the season is almost over and starting pitchers only play baseball once every 5 days and a 4th starter with 6-8 starts left isn't moving the needle. It's a very realistic outcome.

As an aside, Soriano is also better than Detmers and I think there's a racial component as to why he is not viewed as favorably. Targeting that guy seems like a way better idea to me.

1 hour ago, Kyyle23 said:

What I’m really worried about is the same thing we just saw happen with Schultz plays out in front of us: nobody has the patience for these kids figuring it out because all of our expectations have changed and been updated. Then you get to the point where we have a very real amount of fans who are completely done with Schultz, because he isn’t “there” yet. What happens with Hagen if he comes out and can’t hit the broadside of a barn because he knows that he was just inserted into the bullpen of a team in the playoff hunt?

I get the concern. Also, I could care less about the fans who don’t understand development.

1 hour ago, almagest said:

and I would hesitate to meet the Angels supposed current asking price.

Likewise… and I don’t think any GM will. He’s staying in Anaheim as far as I’m concerned.

4 minutes ago, nrockway said:

I can just about guarantee you that no MLB front office thinks Reid Detmers is anywhere close to a high end SP. His upside is mid rotation and is historically a swingman. He only has one pitch that's actually good, it seems more realistic to expect that he's a setup man more than a #1 or even #2 starter. This 'peripherals' discussion tends to be overstated; perhaps some of the indicators are occasionally correlated to future success when the player is, like, 22-years-old. At a certain point, a player has enough of a track record that you can just look at the numbers at face value. Guy is 27 and in his 6th MLB season. His so-called 'peripherals' were better out of the bullpen anyway and he still pitched to a 4 ERA.

Some of the offers discussed here are better value than what the Sox got for Cease and approaching the Crochet haul. And I bet you the Red Sox wish they didn't make that trade. I'm sure they'd be much happier with Teel, Braden, Chase, Wikelman, Early than Crochet and Mead (even if they weren't injured). I mean, if 4.61 ERA Detmers nets you the #2 and #3 players in the system (51 and 57 overall) + another piece, the Sox would be complete fools not to trade one or both of Davis Martin and Sean Burke. Both of those guys are much better and have more control, so maybe you're talking about 2 top 20 prospects, right?

If I were a betting man, I'd bet on Detmers staying put because he won't command anywhere close to what you're speculating. I also think it would be a fucking shame if the Sox trade real assets for Detmers or a guy like him just to pitch 30-40 innings the rest of the way and for the Sox to finish in 4th place because the season is almost over and starting pitchers only play baseball once every 5 days and a 4th starter with 6-8 starts left isn't moving the needle. It's a very realistic outcome.

As an aside, Soriano is also better than Detmers and I think there's a racial component as to why he is not viewed as favorably. Targeting that guy seems like a way better idea to me.

Soriano had a historic April but has been very mediocre since. I think the walk rate really limits his ceiling. Detmers is viewed more favorably because of the better strikeout and walk numbers, even if Soriano is better at actual run prevention so far.

Edited 2 hours ago2 hr by chw42

19 minutes ago, SoxBlanco said:

How does Detmers compare to Jose Quintana when we traded him to the Cubs? Seems like neither are/were considered an elite pitcher, but then you look at the stats and you realize they are pretty damn good.

Quintana did have one more year of control than Detmers has, if I recall correctly, but I was shocked we got both Eloy and Cease.

The business of baseball is totally different nowadays - teams value prospects much more.

19 minutes ago, fathom said:

Gotta think today will force Tigers to trade Skubal.

I don't see how a team 7 under at the end of July has any real hope of competing. They put themselves in a huge hole and would have to have been Red Sox hot to really put themselves back into contention.

Just now, almagest said:

I don't see how a team 7 under at the end of July has any real hope of competing. They put themselves in a huge hole and would have to have been Red Sox hot to really put themselves back into contention.

The Tigers sold a few years ago at the deadline and somehow did better after and made the playoffs. It's definitely possible, especially with how weak the AL is this year. But they need a lot of bullpen help to make that happen this year.

2 minutes ago, chw42 said:

Soriano had a historic April but has been very mediocre since. I think the walk rate really limits his ceiling. Detmers is viewed more favorably because of the better strikeout and walk numbers, even if Soriano is better at actual run prevention so far.

If I could get Soriano for cheaper than Detmers I'd strongly consider it. He'd be a nice 3/4 to slot in. He's got more team control I think though.

Just now, almagest said:

If I could get Soriano for cheaper than Detmers I'd strongly consider it. He'd be a nice 3/4 to slot in. He's got more team control I think though.

They're both free agents in 2029. I doubt the Angels trade both.

12 minutes ago, nrockway said:

there's a racial component

Fucking ridiculous.

12 minutes ago, nrockway said:

I can just about guarantee you that no MLB front office thinks Reid Detmers is anywhere close to a high end SP. His upside is mid rotation and is historically a swingman. He only has one pitch that's actually good, it seems more realistic to expect that he's a setup man more than a #1 or even #2 starter. This 'peripherals' discussion tends to be overstated; perhaps some of the indicators are occasionally correlated to future success when the player is, like, 22-years-old. At a certain point, a player has enough of a track record that you can just look at the numbers at face value. Guy is 27 and in his 6th MLB season. His so-called 'peripherals' were better out of the bullpen anyway and he still pitched to a 4 ERA.

Some of the offers discussed here are better value than what the Sox got for Cease and approaching the Crochet haul. And I bet you the Red Sox wish they didn't make that trade. I'm sure they'd be much happier with Teel, Braden, Chase, Wikelman, Early than Crochet and Mead (even if they weren't injured). I mean, if 4.61 ERA Detmers nets you the #2 and #3 players in the system (51 and 57 overall) + another piece, the Sox would be complete fools not to trade one or both of Davis Martin and Sean Burke. Both of those guys are much better and have more control, so maybe you're talking about 2 top 20 prospects, right?

If I were a betting man, I'd bet on Detmers staying put because he won't command anywhere close to what you're speculating. I also think it would be a fucking shame if the Sox trade real assets for Detmers or a guy like him just to pitch 30-40 innings the rest of the way and for the Sox to finish in 4th place because the season is almost over and starting pitchers only play baseball once every 5 days and a 4th starter with 6-8 starts left isn't moving the needle. It's a very realistic outcome.

As an aside, Soriano is also better than Detmers and I think there's a racial component as to why he is not viewed as favorably. Targeting that guy seems like a way better idea to me.

Your dislike of Detmers almost feels personal lol.

He was rushed to the bigs as a 21 year old, and has had to learn everything at this level. His slider and fastball are both ++ imo and his other 3 pitches are league average at worse.

I think he has a great second half of his career. Not quite a wheeler like resurgence post 28, but still think it'll be a top 15ish starter over a 3-5 year period type run.