Crew Rushes to Get to Trapped W.Va. Miners

[WCSox]

If the mine covered significant vertical distances, then you could have seen a fractionation between the different gases due to gravity and their molecular weights (depending on non-ideality of the gas - probably negligible here).  But you'd probably need several kilometers of distance in order to really see an effect, something we certainly don't have here.

 

If you gave me perfectly ideal mixtures of CO, CO2, O2, and N2...just based on their molecular weights CO and N2 would migrate to the top of the column, O2 and especially CO2 would move towards the bottom, but again, you need a long path for this to actually be seen.

 

That's probably true, given that the actual verical distance is only a couple hundred feet. Then again, even relatively low levels of CO are bad news for the respiratory system.

 

I've always been under the impression that Ar is significantly more dense than molecular oxygen, despite the fact that the molecular masses are in the same ballpark (40 vs. 32). If you pumped a bunch of argon into a mine, I get the feeling that one would be able to measure a difference in concentration between the top and bottom. But maybe I'm wrong about that.

[Steff]

Nerds..

[FlaSoxxJim]

Then again, when a mining operation gets slapped with a couple-thousand dollar wristslap for potentially deadly safety and workplace violations, there are some who think some more heavy-handed government regulation might just be in order. If the government thinks it's important enough that the FCC fines radio stations $27,500 each time a jock drops the F-bomb, I'd hope they'd see fit to fine a mining company more than a couple hundred dollars for a life-threatening safety violation.

 

But that's just me.

[Balta1701]

That's probably true, given that the actual verical distance is only a couple hundred feet.  Then again, even relatively low levels of CO are bad news for the respiratory system.

 

I've always been under the impression that Ar is significantly more dense than molecular oxygen, despite the fact that the molecular masses are in the same ballpark (40 vs. 32).  If you pumped a bunch of argon into a mine, I get the feeling that one would be able to measure a difference in concentration between the top and bottom.  But maybe I'm wrong about that.

No, you're actually quite right. In fact, with Argon, the difference would be bigger than the difference between CO and O2, since O2 has a molecular weight of 32 and CO is 28, so the difference between Ar and O2 would be larger than the difference between O2 and Co. But again, you need a fairly long column to do this.

 

For an example of how this works...you can actually use gravity to enrich uranium for bomb-making processes. If you create a gas (UF6 likely), and build large vertical columns, and then suck the gas out of the top of each column, the gas at the top will be enriched in U235F6 compared to the bottom, which is enriched in U238F6. But again, the degree of fractionation depends heaviliy on the height of the column - a few meters does nothing, a few kilometers probably makes a significant difference.

[Balta1701]

Those companies have costs related to doing business that have a lot to do with their safety.  you can't tell me something like insurance won't go up a lot for these companies if they don't meet the regulations that the insurance companies set forth.

How much regulation of these businesses can the insurance companies actually be doing if the Federal Government, which has to give a 24 hour notice before any inspection, finds 96 fairly severe safety violations, several of which last for more than a year (because they showed up 2 years in a row), and the mine is still able to stay in business and finds no reason to correct those problems?

[WCSox]

No, you're actually quite right.  In fact, with Argon, the difference would be bigger than the difference between CO and O2, since O2 has a molecular weight of 32 and CO is 28, so the difference between Ar and O2 would be larger than the difference between O2 and Co.  But again, you need a fairly long column to do this.

 

What puzzles me somewhat is that the percent difference mass between those gases isn't exactly enormous...

 

Difference between Ar and O2: 25%

Difference between O2 and CO: 14%

 

Based on the math, it doesn't make sense that would be able to fractionate Ar from O2 over a height of a few hundred feet, but not O2 from CO.

 

Sorry, I'm getting off topic here...

[Balta1701]

What puzzles me somewhat is that the percent difference mass between those gases isn't exactly enormous...

 

Difference between Ar and O2: 25%

Difference between O2 and CO: 14%

 

Based on the math, it doesn't make sense that would be able to fractionate Ar from O2 over a height of a few hundred feet, but not O2 from CO.

 

Sorry, I'm getting off topic here...

First of all, I keep saying that a few hundred feet probably wouldn't do much - you have the normal, temperature/entropy related scattering which is working against the gravitational effects.

 

Secondly, we're not talking about sticking those gases together and winding up with pure O2 on 1 side and pure CO on the other side, we'd be talking about maybe a very small increase in the concentrations of each component on their respective sides. If CO was a trace component, you could get a bigger effect, but you're still not going to come out with a pure component at the end.

 

When I say Fractionation, I'm saying simply a change in the ratio between 2 components. Any detectable change, no matter how small, would count. You need significantly large columns, or repeated steps, to produce large fractionations using this technique.

[WCSox]

First of all, I keep saying that a few hundred feet probably wouldn't do much - you have the normal, temperature/entropy related scattering which is working against the gravitational effects.

 

Secondly, we're not talking about sticking those gases together and winding up with pure O2 on 1 side and pure CO on the other side, we'd be talking about maybe a very small increase in the concentrations of each component on their respective sides.  If CO was a trace component, you could get a bigger effect, but you're still not going to come out with a pure component at the end.

 

When I say Fractionation, I'm saying simply a change in the ratio between 2 components.  Any detectable change, no matter how small, would count.  You need significantly large columns, or repeated steps, to produce large fractionations using this technique.

 

I think we're talking about two different things. Since the air is mostly (~ 80%)nitrogen gas, let's assume that a 300-foot hole in the ground contains pure nitrogen. If somebody displaced 50% of that nitrogen volume with argon via a pump, I was thinking that the argon would slowly settle towards the bottom of the hole. Of course, the Ar content wouldn't be anywhere near 100% at the bottom, but it'd be measurably higher than at the top. That's all I was saying.

[Steff]

[Balta1701]

I think we're talking about two different things.  Since the air is mostly (~ 80%)nitrogen gas, let's assume that a 300-foot hole in the ground contains pure nitrogen.  If somebody displaced 50% of that nitrogen volume with argon via a pump, I was thinking that the argon would slowly settle towards the bottom of the hole.  Of course, the Ar content wouldn't be anywhere near 100% at the bottom, but it'd be measurably higher than at the top.  That's all I was saying.

I don't think I like saying the Argon would "Slowly settle towards the bottom of the hole"...but aside from that you're correct. What would happen (and depending on the temperature this could happen very rapidly) is that the argon and the nitrogen would each establish distributions based on their molecular weights, the size of the column, and the temperature, where the Nitrogen was measurably higher at the upper end, and the Argon was measurably higher at the lower end.

[WCSox]

I don't think I like saying the Argon would "Slowly settle towards the bottom of the hole"...but aside from that you're correct. 

 

Well, OK, the gases would equlibribrate and there would be a differing distribution. Better?

Edited January 3, 2006 by WCSox

[Balta1701]

Well, OK, via equlibrium.  Better? 

[maggsmaggs]

They found one dead body and are mystified as to where the others are.

[LosMediasBlancas]

ALIVE ALIVE ALIVE 12 ALIVE!!!!!

WOW, TRULY MIRACULOUS.

[Chisoxfn]

ALIVE ALIVE ALIVE 12 ALIVE!!!!!

WOW, TRULY MIRACULOUS.

Unbelievable.

[FlaSoxxJim]

Wow!! I had held out almost no hope from the outset. That is unbelievable great news.

[WilliamTell]

Sounds like it's just the opposite. Only 1 survived. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10682163/

Very sad news indeed. RIP to all.

Edited January 4, 2006 by WilliamTell

[YASNY]

Sounds like it's just the opposite. Only 1 survived. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10682163/

Very sad news indeed. RIP to all.

 

Those poor people have been through hell. My prayers go out to them.

[southsider2k5]

What an unbelievable screw up. I can't imagine a worse scenario actually unfolding here... Someone has a lot of explaining to do.

 

As for the one survivor, he is in critical condition and needs lots of prayers.

[Texsox]

Mining is such a dangerous profession. I cannot fathom men who feel so trapped in their economic situation that they would knowingly go into an unsafe mine.

[Texsox]

What an unbelievable screw up.  I can't imagine a worse scenario actually unfolding here...  Someone has a lot of explaining to do.

 

As for the one survivor, he is in critical condition and needs lots of prayers.

 

It seems the information that was "officially released" was accurate. There were some communications that were overheard, and repeated, that was wrong. Those seemed to come from volunteers. I think that was a Fox report.

 

Speculation in my part. One idiot wanted to be a hero and went off with half the information. A rumour got started with heart breaking results.

[southsider2k5]

Wow. You would think after all of the misinformation that got passed off as fact after Katrina the media and officials would have learned a lesson, I guess not.

 

More info on the timeline of things.

 

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/01/04/mine.expl....wed/index.html

[kapkomet]

Wow.  You would think after all of the misinformation that got passed off as fact after Katrina the media and officials would have learned a lesson, I guess not.

 

More info on the timeline of things.

 

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/01/04/mine.expl....wed/index.html

AL GORE WINS FLORIDA.

 

Katrina.

 

This.

 

The media is nothing but a bunch of whores looking for the "STORY". And these poor people got caught in the middle. It's very sad.

[Texsox]

Hatfield said the miscommunication occurred between rescue crews and the command center, causing the earlier erroneous reports.

 

The rescue team that found the miners was speaking to the command center over mine communication system on an open speaker audible to a number of people, Hatfield said. He noted the company made no formal announcement that the 12 were alive, but said he would not single out any rescuers, as they were trying to save the miners' lives.

 

It sounds to me like it was the volunteers who relayed the news. I'm not certain whet y'all heard, maybe it's different then the report I heard, but speculation was someone, not an official, overheard something, and spread the wrong information. Sadly, when 100 people are all shouting the same thing, it seems real.

 

Should the media point a camera at the Governor and other victim's families and report what they are saying, or stay off the air until it is confirmed by someone other than the Governor?

[Steff]

AL GORE WINS FLORIDA.

 

Katrina.

 

This.

 

The media is nothing but a bunch of whores looking for the "STORY".  And these poor people got caught in the middle.  It's very sad.

 

 

I heard this morning that the reporters got the info from a Church official who supposedly got the news from a police official...??? Apparently the police were not speaking directly to the media for this very reason...? I was half listening so I definitely could be wrong..