SportsNation Biggest Blunders from Neyer

[Kyyle23]

what does IIRC mean?

 

If I Recall/Remember Correctly

Edited May 24, 2006 by kyyle23

[LosMediasBlancas]

Picking up David Wells?

[AbeFroman]

Picking up David Wells?

 

its not like mike sirotka was ever productive again. Actually, the probably "won" that trade in that at least wells ate up some innings...

[ZoomSlowik]

Never use that argument again. First, you are comparing a player with a team. Second, you are comparing team accomplishments, not individual ones. Third, Timo Perez has a ring. Is he better than Bonds?

 

The problem is that if we had drafted Bonds, there's a fairly good chance that we wouldn't have been able to draft the Big Hurt. Frank was the best hitter in baseball in the early-to-mid 90's and was obviously the centerpiece to two solid teams. Bonds didn't really pass him up until Frank started having injury problems, and by then Bonds might have been gone in FA anyways.

[LosMediasBlancas]

its not like mike sirotka was ever productive again. Actually, the probably "won" that trade in that at least wells ate up some innings...

 

True. I was looking at it just from the perspective of Wells being such a dissapointment.

[Milkman delivers]

Interesting to note:

 

I sat next to a guy at Monday's game who was wearing a Barcelo jersey.

 

At that same game, I saw a guy wearing a Jamie Burke jersey. Maybe those two were together?

[knightni]

I saw that guy too.

 

Nah, the Barcelo guy had an end seat.

[Felix]

The problem is that if we had drafted Bonds, there's a fairly good chance that we wouldn't have been able to draft the Big Hurt. Frank was the best hitter in baseball in the early-to-mid 90's and was obviously the centerpiece to two solid teams. Bonds didn't really pass him up until Frank started having injury problems, and by then Bonds might have been gone in FA anyways.

Yea, and thats true, but that doesn't stop saying "Bonds has no ring, so it wasn't a blunder" from being a ridiculous "argument" (its not really an argument since its so stupid).

[Dick Allen]

The problem is that if we had drafted Bonds, there's a fairly good chance that we wouldn't have been able to draft the Big Hurt. Frank was the best hitter in baseball in the early-to-mid 90's and was obviously the centerpiece to two solid teams. Bonds didn't really pass him up until Frank started having injury problems, and by then Bonds might have been gone in FA anyways.

You may want to look at that again. Bonds stats in Frank's 2 MVP seasons were very similar to Frank's, except he stole a few bases, and was a gold glove outfielder, and put up his numbers playing home games at Candlestick Park, not the hitter haven USCF is. Bonds performance the couple of years before Frank was drafted probably wasn't good enough to push the Sox down the draft very much, if at all. Its extremely possible they could have had both, and as great as Frank was, Bonds was a superior player to him his entire career.

Edited May 24, 2006 by Dick Allen

[sox84]

These both look like great moves to me.

 

I third the notion that moving Sosa and Caray were both good ones. I am old enough to remember Harry all the way back to St Louis, and I never heard anybody else who had it in for so many people. Think Milo Hamilton summed him up pretty well. Sammy, gee we missed 12-13 years of a cubhouse butthead who never figured out the correct base to throw to.

[ZoomSlowik]

You may want to look at that again. Bonds stats in Frank's 2 MVP seasons were very similar to Frank's, except he stole a few bases, and was a gold glove outfielder, and put up his numbers playing home games at Candlestick Park, not the hitter haven USCF is. Bonds performance the couple of years before Frank was drafted probably wasn't good enough to push the Sox down the draft very much, if at all. Its extremely possible they could have had both, and as great as Frank was, Bonds was a superior player to him his entire career.

 

First off, the park argument is irrelevant because Frank's best years came in the old park.

 

Second, Thomas's batting average was consistently well over .300 while Bonds only had one year over .315 until 2001. Thomas had 6 such years, including 3 years over .340. Even now Frank still has a higher career batting average.

 

Third, Frank got on base more than Bonds. Bonds' OBP only cracked .440 4 times in the 90's, Frank was over .450 6 times.

 

Fourth, Frank was a more consistent hitter and run producer. Besides the batting average and OBP, He averaging 7 more RBI per season before he started getting hurt. Bonds also had a 4 and a half year start in the majors, so it might have been more lopsided if Frank had joined the league at the same time.

 

Lastly, in 1988, the year where we sucked enough to be able to draft Frank, Bonds hit .283 with 24 homers and 97 runs. That's enough to bump us down at least one spot in the draft, probably more.

 

The defense is a legitimate argument and Bonds got better starting around 2000, but they had very similar power numbers during that stretch and Thomas was better in the other aspects of hitting. I'd rather have had Frank during that stretch, because Bonds simply wasn't as big a force in the lineup as Frank before 2000 outside of 1993 and 1996.

Edited May 24, 2006 by ZoomSlowik

[Dick Allen]

First off, the park argument is irrelevant because Frank's best years came in the old park.

The old park was only open during Frank's rookie year. He was called up in August. So he basically had a month and a half to 2 months of home games at old Comiskey in his career, and he was pretty impressive. Bonds played several years in Candlestick which has the reputation of being a hitter's graveyard. In fact, ask any player who has played there who the real homerun king is, and they will all tell you its Willie Mays. If Frank played as many games in Candlestick as Bonds did, Frank's numbers would not be as impressive as they are.

Edited May 24, 2006 by Dick Allen

[Kyyle23]

Just for arguments sake, how many of Bonds career homeruns were hit in 3 rivers stadium

[Dick Allen]

The bottom line is even if drafting Barry Bonds would have meant Frank Thomas wasn't to be a White Sox, and by the way, when Philadelphia drafted Simeon High School's Jeff Jackson, it meant the Sox had to go to plan B and draft Frank, so what. Even without steriods, Bonds is easily one of the top 10-15 players who has ever played. Frank Thomas is not.

[ZoomSlowik]

The old park was only open during Frank's rookie year. He was called up in August. So he basically had a month and a half to 2 months of home games at old Comiskey in his career, and he was pretty impressive. Bonds played several years in Candlestick which has the reputation of being a hitter's graveyard. In fact, ask any player who has played there who the real homerun king is, and they will all tell you its Willie Mays. If Frank played as many games in Candlestick as Bonds did, Frank's numbers would not be as impressive as they are.

 

Okay, let me re-phrase that: Thomas' best years came before the renovations to the new park that turned it into a total hitter's haven. It didn't become a launching pad until much later.

 

Also, concerning Candlestick, when Mays played there, it was a cavernous park. However, the walls were moved in considerably starting in 1961. Mays' homerun total coincidentally spiked considerably that year. It started out at 397 to the gaps, 420 to dead center, 330 in left and 335 in right. By the time Bonds got there in 1993, it was 335 in left, 328 in right, 365 to the gaps, and 400 to dead center. They also lowered the fences from 10 feet when Mays was there to 8 feet when Bonds got there. That's actually shorter than the Cell is right now.

[My Dixie Normus]

Anyone know where to find the history of transactions made in '86 (Hawk's GM year) ? I found his draft that year, Radinsky was #1, but I would like to look at some of those trades again.

 

Larry Himes had some great drafts. McDowell '87, Vebtura '88 and Thomas '89.

[ZoomSlowik]

The bottom line is even if drafting Barry Bonds would have meant Frank Thomas wasn't to be a White Sox, and by the way, when Philadelphia drafted Simeon High School's Jeff Jackson, it meant the Sox had to go to plan B and draft Frank, so what. Even without steriods, Bonds is easily one of the top 10-15 players who has ever played. Frank Thomas is not.

 

Pre-steroid Bonds is not one of the 15 best players of all time. In his prime before injuries started getting to him, Thomas was one of the 15 best hitters of all time. Not a whole lot of guys combined power, average, and on base percentage as well as Frank did.

[Dick Allen]

Pre-steroid Bonds is not one of the 15 best players of all time. In his prime before injuries started getting to him, Thomas was one of the 15 best hitters of all time. Not a whole lot of guys combined power, average, and on base percentage as well as Frank did.

MVP in 1990,1992,1993 all pre-steriod. That's more MVPs than Frank. He had 7 or 8 gold gloves. Prior to 1998 which is near or around when he started juicing, the guy was top 5 in MVP voting 7 times. He only struck out as many as 100 times his rookie year. Over 500 career steals, the majority coming before he was juiced. Easily one of the top 15 pre-steroid, ignore the steroids and he may be the greatest player ever. Frank had a 7 year stretch when he was very dominant offensively. There is no comparision between the players overall, however.

Edited May 24, 2006 by Dick Allen

[Balta1701]

MVP in 1990,1992,1993 all pre-steriod. That's more MVPs than Frank. He had 7 or 8 gold gloves. Prior to 1998 which is near or around when he started juicing, the guy was top 5 in MVP voting 7 times. He only struck out as many as 100 times his rookie year. Over 500 career steals, the majority coming before he was juiced. Easily one of the top 15 pre-steroid, ignore the steroids and he may be the greatest player ever. Frank had a 7 year stretch when he was very dominant offensively. There is no comparision between the players overall, however.

So given that a lot of folks were already juicing in the mid to late 80's, and there were steroids that were known to make people stronger without turning them into post-99-Bonds style monsters, like the stuff Palmeiro was on for so long, is there some reason I should assume that he didn't ever try the stuff until 98?

[Dick Allen]

So given that a lot of folks were already juicing in the mid to late 80's, and there were steroids that were known to make people stronger without turning them into post-99-Bonds style monsters, like the stuff Palmeiro was on for so long, is there some reason I should assume that he didn't ever try the stuff until 98?

I suppose there isn't. Just like there really isn't anything stopping anyone from saying Frank has juiced. I believe Frank didn't, and Bonds really didn't get very big until after Sosa and McGwire went nuts. Its going to be how a lot of homerun hitters from the last 20 years are viewed. Unfortunately because so many were guilty, even the innocent will have some doubt.

[Texsox]

draft blunders are a dime a dozen in all sports and especially in baseball are meaningless.

 

The stadium thought is excellent, and often overlooked. Look at all themoney that has been tossed into it later.

[Dick Allen]

draft blunders are a dime a dozen in all sports and especially in baseball are meaningless.

That's true. In 1983 the Sox selected Joel Davis. Roger Clemens went 19th to Boston. The 1985 draft was a good one the top 6 players picked were BJ Surhoff, Will Clark, Bobby Witt, Barry Larkin, Kurt Brown, Barry Bonds. Unfortunately the Sox picked the 1 out of the 6 that was a total bust.

[jackie hayes]

Agreed, the baseball draft is such a crapshoot -- unless everyone is clamoring for a no-brainer draftee, and you reach for someone who looks like a 3rd rounder, it's hard to put much blame on a team. Except with Donald Lucy...

 

You just think, Pujols in the 13th round, goddam.

Edited May 24, 2006 by jackie hayes

[ZoomSlowik]

MVP in 1990,1992,1993 all pre-steriod. That's more MVPs than Frank. He had 7 or 8 gold gloves. Prior to 1998 which is near or around when he started juicing, the guy was top 5 in MVP voting 7 times. He only struck out as many as 100 times his rookie year. Over 500 career steals, the majority coming before he was juiced. Easily one of the top 15 pre-steroid, ignore the steroids and he may be the greatest player ever. Frank had a 7 year stretch when he was very dominant offensively. There is no comparision between the players overall, however.

 

I don't like using awards as a measuring stick because they are highly subjective. The first MVP was a little iffy. He didn't finish in the top 5 in batting average, homers, or RBI. I suppose he arguably could have gotten one in 96, but you could also argue that Frank got screwed in 2000, or that he could have won in 1995 or 19996. However, I digress. I wouldn't put him anywhere near the greatest player ever regardless. I would put all of the following ahead of him:

 

Willie Mays

Hank Aaron

Mickey Mantle

Joe DiMaggio

Ken Griffey Jr.

Ty Cobb

Babe Ruth

Ted Williams

Stan Musial

Roberto Clemente

 

You'll notice that those are just the outfielders. You could argue that he might belong in front of one or two of those guys (or I could find a few more with more digging), but you'd be hard-pressed to find more than that. Bonds was a very good player pre-juice and a first ballot HOF'er, but I wouldn't put him among the all-time greats. If he were able to string together another healthy year or two, Thomas would have had numbers comparable to a lot of those guys.

 

End of thread hijacking on my part.

Edited May 25, 2006 by ZoomSlowik

[hammerhead johnson]

Willie Mays

Hank Aaron

Mickey Mantle

Joe DiMaggio

Ken Griffey Jr.

Ty Cobb

Babe Ruth

Ted Williams

Stan Musial

Roberto Clemente

 

You'll notice that those are just the outfielders.

 

Nice. These 5 would round out the Top 15 in my opinion:

 

Rickey Henderson

Carl Yastremzki

Frank Robinson

Barry Bonds

Mel Ott

 

And props to Tony Gwynn.