McCarthy Traded to Texas

[Jeremy]

That would mean he would have been the White Sox best pitcher this year or next year.

 

How many pitchers even make the all star game, and when is the last one to come from Texas?

 

B-Mac first needs to pitch with a sub 4.0 era for an entire season.

 

Honestly, the second reason I objected to the Vazquez trade last season (in addition to parting with Young) was that as much as a value rotation depth, I thought it was entirely possible that McCarthy would post the best ERA on the staff. Obviously that outlook hadn't changed any this season. It'll be interesting to see if BMac can come within striking distance of our best pitcher.

[ChiSoxLifer]

I've taken a little time to think this over before I posted. First of all, for all those so-called Sox fans that are ready to give up on the 2007 season before New Year's, the bandwagon ride is over. You guys sound as if you started rooting for my beloved team in October 2005. Feel free to jump off the bandwagon and I hope you break your ankles as you hit the ground. You can hate the trade or you can love the trade but you never give up on the team. You root for the player but love the laundry.

 

Now my post has a lot of sarcasm in it so try to follow me.

 

KW gets panned for trading Freddy Garcia for Gavin Floyd and Gio Hernandez. My first reaction to the Freddy trade was I thought KW should've received more in return for a guy who throws 87 mph heat and allows runners to run the bases like it's a merry-go-round. However, I decided to do a little research before I form an opinion. Yah he's a big game pitcher and won 17 games last year. Out of the 17 games he won, the Sox offense scored 6 or more runs in 13 of them. The main reason he won those many games is because the Sox were third in MLB in runs scored. Here's a guy who gave up nearly 5 earned runs a game, is in his walk year, and I expected to get a kings ransom for him? If KW could've got a better package for Freddy don't you think he would've done so? Well, ok I was wrong and decided Kenny knows better. The Sox did manage to get the 2nd ranked left-handed prospect in all of baseball and got Floyd as basically a throw-in. This trade basically opens up a roster spot for Cy McCarthy! I mean, after all, he did manage to shut down Boston, Texas, and the heavy hitting 2005 Twins, right? This guy came up and set the baseball world on fire, much like Liriano did in 2006. He's ready for ten Cy Young awards in a row! Then guess what? Kenny lost his mind again and traded our "Dontrelle Willis"! How could he do this to us? I like many others thought BMac was ruined in 2006 because they used him in the bullpen. It's a completely different mindset preparing for relief pitching as it is for starting. You look at how the Red Sox ruined Jonathan Papelbon by using him in relief. Papelbon was one of the BoSox's top starting pitcher prospects and decided to use him as a reliever. That guy had a horrible year and only saved 35 games with a 0.92 era. Obviously, the name of the game is to get the batters out no matter what the situation. Papelbon failed miserably. So KW trades Cy McCarthy and we only received the top ranked left handed prospect (6th overall I believe) in all of baseball. In addition we get a reliever who can throw some serious heat. This trade could do for the White Sox what trading Pierzyinski did for the Twins (Nathan, Liriano, and Bonser).

 

The Garcia trade opened up the 5th spot in the rotation for a player that has question marks. We then traded McCarthy for 3 question marks but could eventually be better than Brandon. The 2007 season does not completely hinge on the 5 spot. It hinges on one through four to pitch the way we expect them to. You can't compare this situation to the 2004 5th starter debacle. The only decent pitcher the Sox had that year was Buehrle. The rest of the starting rotation wasn't that strong with a nearly 5.00 staff era. I fully expect this year's front four to be one of the best in the AL. Buehrle will bounce back and Jon will probably flirt with 18 wins again. Who the heck said Contreras was injury prone? He's averaged 31 starts the past three years. Please tell me where he's injury prone. The wild card in the rotation is Vasquez. He's got the stuff but does he have the mental makeup to get past his so-called 5 inning starts? I tell you what, if Javier had the same run support Freddy got, Javier would've won 17+ games. In his last ten starts, the Sox averaged less than 2 runs per game. It's these four guys that will make or break the 2007 season. Not McCarthy.

 

Floyd will not be in the running for the fifth starter position. Kenny has said he will either be in the bullpen for this year or if he decides he'd rather start, he'll start out in the minors. I truly believe Charlie Haegar will get the 5th spot. I don't care if he throws a knuckler or 100 mph heat. If you can get the hitters out, you're doing your job. I've seen plenty of guys throw 95+ and get knocked around like a pinball.

 

For the true White Sox fans, get the hell off the ledge. The White Sox still have one of the top ranked offenses in all of baseball. The front four rotation won't be as bad as it was for the 90 win 2006 team. The fifth starter only needs to be .500 or better and the bullpen will be downright nasty. It's going to be a great year and I can't wait for the season to start.

Edited December 26, 2006 by ChiSoxLifer

[shoelessinva]

OK, OK, everyone please calm down. Put the pistols away.

 

Consider for a moment the fact that KW has already delivered one World Championship. Yes I, like many of you, remain greedy for more, more, more - for the pride of all of baseball and for the pride of Chicago.

 

Let us all never forget the 2005 playoffs and World Series and the fact that it was pitching that ultimately delivered the Crown. Yes, there were some clutch hits in there as well. But, our studs pitched outstanding during that stretch of October, losing only once.

 

It would therefore make sense that the old addage, "Pitching wins championships" rings true, as we witnessed in 05.

 

I trust KW and believe he would not have made these deals if he did not believe it would help us both now and for the long haul. I don't want this era's Sox to be remembered as one-year wonders. I want to see a contender every year - preferably in the mold of Minn, Atl, or Oak.

 

Give KW a break and look at the potential. There is also another old addage that applies to baseball and life in general: Risk a little, gain a little. Risk a lot, gain a lot.

[NorthSideSox72]

Its sort of funny that people on both sides of the fence on this issue are using the same argument - you don't know what (insert BMac or Danks here) is capable of, he's a wildcard. But that's the whole point, isn't it? We traded one very good pitching prospect for another, and might have made out even in that sense.

 

But... that wasn't the whole trade. We also got 2 more pitchers, one of whom might turn out to be quite good and the other a long-shot. In exchange, we gave up an outfielder prospect (which we have a bazillion of) that doesn't look like he is ever going to reach the big club anyway.

 

So, even if you think B-Mac is better as a prospect than Danks, remember, we definitely got the better end of the other 3 players involved. And if Danks and B-Mac are pretty equivalent in potential, then we made out big time in this trade.

[hitlesswonder]

So you based your opinions of the trade on a blog by a rangers fan?

Im not sure I should even respond to such foolishness.

 

Numbers are numbers, but Danks has been the youngest guy in the league every step of the way. Last year in AAA he was the youngest pitcher in the league, struggled to begin with and then dominated, the same pattern he has developed his whole career. You will be hard pressed to find ANY baseball experts that think that BMAC projects as more towards the front of the rotation than Danks. If you would find me a source, other than a blog, that states that fact, I will gladly retract.

 

I was asking you what your opiion was based on. My opinion, since I haven't seen Danks pitch, is based solely on his numbers. They may not do him justice, but based on the numbers Danks hasn't performed better than McCarthy. What have you read that says Danks projects as an ace? I'm not being snarky here, I'm actually interested.

 

 

Anyway, I thought it was interesting that both Rangers and Sox fans think they got the pitcher with the higher potential.

[thedoctor]

I was asking you what your opiion was based on. My opinion, since I haven't seen Danks pitch, is based solely on his numbers. They may not do him justice, but based on the numbers Danks hasn't performed better than McCarthy. What have you read that says Danks projects as an ace? I'm not being snarky here, I'm actually interested.

Anyway, I thought it was interesting that both Rangers and Sox fans think they got the pitcher with the higher potential.

 

i think using numbers as a basis for comparison here is shaky.

 

mccarthy did well as a starter in limited opportunities, then struggled in a relief role last year. were last year's struggles an example of his shortcomings, or just of being a starter wedged into an uncomfortable role? i don't know, other than to say that i don't recall any point last year when he looked comfortable as a reliever.

 

as for danks, yeah, his numbers have not been spectacular. however, i remember someone earlier in this thread noting that danks has had a tendency to struggle once he moves to a new level. but after a period of time he works it out and excels. that would explain his higher era numbers, numbers that are influenced by his early struggles.

[J-MAN]

I've taken a little time to think this over before I posted. First of all, for all those so-called Sox fans that are ready to give up on the 2007 season before New Year's, the bandwagon ride is over. You guys sound as if you started rooting for my beloved team in October 2005. Feel free to jump off the bandwagon and I hope you break your ankles as you hit the ground. You can hate the trade or you can love the trade but you never give up on the team. You root for the player but love the laundry.

 

Now my post has a lot of sarcasm in it so try to follow me.

 

KW gets panned for trading Freddy Garcia for Gavin Floyd and Gio Hernandez. My first reaction to the Freddy trade was I thought KW should've received more in return for a guy who throws 87 mph heat and allows runners to run the bases like it's a merry-go-round. However, I decided to do a little research before I form an opinion. Yah he's a big game pitcher and won 17 games last year. Out of the 17 games he won, the Sox offense scored 6 or more runs in 13 of them. The main reason he won those many games is because the Sox were third in MLB in runs scored. Here's a guy who gave up nearly 5 earned runs a game, is in his walk year, and I expected to get a kings ransom for him? If KW could've got a better package for Freddy don't you think he would've done so? Well, ok I was wrong and decided Kenny knows better. The Sox did manage to get the 2nd ranked left-handed prospect in all of baseball and got Floyd as basically a throw-in. This trade basically opens up a roster spot for Cy McCarthy! I mean, after all, he did manage to shut down Boston, Texas, and the heavy hitting 2005 Twins, right? This guy came up and set the baseball world on fire, much like Liriano did in 2006. He's ready for ten Cy Young awards in a row! Then guess what? Kenny lost his mind again and traded our "Dontrelle Willis"! How could he do this to us? I like many others thought BMac was ruined in 2006 because they used him in the bullpen. It's a completely different mindset preparing for relief pitching as it is for starting. You look at how the Red Sox ruined Jonathan Papelbon by using him in relief. Papelbon was one of the BoSox's top starting pitcher prospects and decided to use him as a reliever. That guy had a horrible year and only saved 35 games with a 0.92 era. Obviously, the name of the game is to get the batters out no matter what the situation. Papelbon failed miserably. So KW trades Cy McCarthy and we only received the top ranked left handed prospect (6th overall I believe) in all of baseball. In addition we get a reliever who can throw some serious heat. This trade could do for the White Sox what trading Pierzyinski did for the Twins (Nathan, Liriano, and Bonser).

 

The Garcia trade opened up the 5th spot in the rotation for a player that has question marks. We then traded McCarthy for 3 question marks but could eventually be better than Brandon. The 2007 season does not completely hinge on the 5 spot. It hinges on one through four to pitch the way we expect them to. You can't compare this situation to the 2004 5th starter debacle. The only decent pitcher the Sox had that year was Buehrle. The rest of the starting rotation wasn't that strong with a nearly 5.00 staff era. I fully expect this year's front four to be one of the best in the AL. Buehrle will bounce back and Jon will probably flirt with 18 wins again. Who the heck said Contreras was injury prone? He's averaged 31 starts the past three years. Please tell me where he's injury prone. The wild card in the rotation is Vasquez. He's got the stuff but does he have the mental makeup to get past his so-called 5 inning starts? I tell you what, if Javier had the same run support Freddy got, Javier would've won 17+ games. In his last ten starts, the Sox averaged less than 2 runs per game. It's these four guys that will make or break the 2007 season. Not McCarthy.

 

Floyd will not be in the running for the fifth starter position. Kenny has said he will either be in the bullpen for this year or if he decides he'd rather start, he'll start out in the minors. I truly believe Charlie Haegar will get the 5th spot. I don't care if he throws a knuckler or 100 mph heat. If you can get the hitters out, you're doing your job. I've seen plenty of guys throw 95+ and get knocked around like a pinball.

 

For the true White Sox fans, get the hell off the ledge. The White Sox still have one of the top ranked offenses in all of baseball. The front four rotation won't be as bad as it was for the 90 win 2006 team. The fifth starter only needs to be .500 or better and the bullpen will be downright nasty. It's going to be a great year and I can't wait for the season to start.

 

AMEN! I couldn't have said it better!

 

Kenny Williams has been right more often than not. My vote is Kenny and Coop saw something in B-Mac they didn't like and a chance to pick up potential. Kenny was a big part in bringing the only World Series winner to the South Side in my lifetime I would trust his judgement over the vast majority of the people on this board who never played the game and don't see these athletes on a daily basis.

 

I can't wait to see these guys after they work with Cooper. Another thing that makes me extremely optimistic is the clubhouse atmosphere that is forming. I don't know how many of you read Bobby Jenks comments on how he can't wait to work together with these guys.

 

We are planning to go to spring trainging for the first time and I can't wait!

 

 

[Controlled Chaos]

I've taken a little time to think this over before I posted. First of all, for all those so-called Sox fans that are ready to give up on the 2007 season before New Year's, the bandwagon ride is over. You guys sound as if you started rooting for my beloved team in October 2005. Feel free to jump off the bandwagon and I hope you break your ankles as you hit the ground. You can hate the trade or you can love the trade but you never give up on the team. You root for the player but love the laundry.

 

Now my post has a lot of sarcasm in it so try to follow me.

 

KW gets panned for trading Freddy Garcia for Gavin Floyd and Gio Hernandez. My first reaction to the Freddy trade was I thought KW should've received more in return for a guy who throws 87 mph heat and allows runners to run the bases like it's a merry-go-round. However, I decided to do a little research before I form an opinion. Yah he's a big game pitcher and won 17 games last year. Out of the 17 games he won, the Sox offense scored 6 or more runs in 13 of them. The main reason he won those many games is because the Sox were third in MLB in runs scored. Here's a guy who gave up nearly 5 earned runs a game, is in his walk year, and I expected to get a kings ransom for him? If KW could've got a better package for Freddy don't you think he would've done so? Well, ok I was wrong and decided Kenny knows better. The Sox did manage to get the 2nd ranked left-handed prospect in all of baseball and got Floyd as basically a throw-in. This trade basically opens up a roster spot for Cy McCarthy! I mean, after all, he did manage to shut down Boston, Texas, and the heavy hitting 2005 Twins, right? This guy came up and set the baseball world on fire, much like Liriano did in 2006. He's ready for ten Cy Young awards in a row! Then guess what? Kenny lost his mind again and traded our "Dontrelle Willis"! How could he do this to us? I like many others thought BMac was ruined in 2006 because they used him in the bullpen. It's a completely different mindset preparing for relief pitching as it is for starting. You look at how the Red Sox ruined Jonathan Papelbon by using him in relief. Papelbon was one of the BoSox's top starting pitcher prospects and decided to use him as a reliever. That guy had a horrible year and only saved 35 games with a 0.92 era. Obviously, the name of the game is to get the batters out no matter what the situation. Papelbon failed miserably. So KW trades Cy McCarthy and we only received the top ranked left handed prospect (6th overall I believe) in all of baseball. In addition we get a reliever who can throw some serious heat. This trade could do for the White Sox what trading Pierzyinski did for the Twins (Nathan, Liriano, and Bonser).

 

The Garcia trade opened up the 5th spot in the rotation for a player that has question marks. We then traded McCarthy for 3 question marks but could eventually be better than Brandon. The 2007 season does not completely hinge on the 5 spot. It hinges on one through four to pitch the way we expect them to. You can't compare this situation to the 2004 5th starter debacle. The only decent pitcher the Sox had that year was Buehrle. The rest of the starting rotation wasn't that strong with a nearly 5.00 staff era. I fully expect this year's front four to be one of the best in the AL. Buehrle will bounce back and Jon will probably flirt with 18 wins again. Who the heck said Contreras was injury prone? He's averaged 31 starts the past three years. Please tell me where he's injury prone. The wild card in the rotation is Vasquez. He's got the stuff but does he have the mental makeup to get past his so-called 5 inning starts? I tell you what, if Javier had the same run support Freddy got, Javier would've won 17+ games. In his last ten starts, the Sox averaged less than 2 runs per game. It's these four guys that will make or break the 2007 season. Not McCarthy.

 

Floyd will not be in the running for the fifth starter position. Kenny has said he will either be in the bullpen for this year or if he decides he'd rather start, he'll start out in the minors. I truly believe Charlie Haegar will get the 5th spot. I don't care if he throws a knuckler or 100 mph heat. If you can get the hitters out, you're doing your job. I've seen plenty of guys throw 95+ and get knocked around like a pinball.

 

For the true White Sox fans, get the hell off the ledge. The White Sox still have one of the top ranked offenses in all of baseball. The front four rotation won't be as bad as it was for the 90 win 2006 team. The fifth starter only needs to be .500 or better and the bullpen will be downright nasty. It's going to be a great year and I can't wait for the season to start.

 

Followed you just fine. Well done.

[SoxHawk1980]

I disagree, I never have thought BMAC had to potential to be an ACE, he looks like a #3 to me, whilst Danks has the abiltiy to be a #1.

When McCarthy was at the point in his development that Danks is in now, people were talking about McCarthy as a potential ace. With most prospects, the closer they get to the majors and the more playing time they get in the majors, the more their ceiling is lowered. It is easy to talk about a 21 year old who has only had 70 ip as high as AAA as a potential ace. The reality usually turns out to be a bit more moderate than that.

 

Remember these once "potential aces" from Sox history? Garland, Wright, Rauch, Kip Wells and Ruffcorn. I'm not saying Danks will be a bust. Not at all. Certainly not all of the pitchers in that list are busts. But there are many potential paths for the careers of top pitching prospects. Very, very few of them become aces.

 

So you based your opinions of the trade on a blog by a rangers fan?

Im not sure I should even respond to such foolishness.

So the opinion of a Rangers fan is worthless because of their obvious bias, but the opinion of a Sox fan (you) has more value? Do you think that you have no pro-Sox bias? Do you think for a second that you are not focusing on the positive because you want this to be a good trade for the Sox?

 

Its sort of funny that people on both sides of the fence on this issue are using the same argument - you don't know what (insert BMac or Danks here) is capable of, he's a wildcard. But that's the whole point, isn't it? We traded one very good pitching prospect for another, and might have made out even in that sense.

 

But... that wasn't the whole trade. We also got 2 more pitchers, one of whom might turn out to be quite good and the other a long-shot. In exchange, we gave up an outfielder prospect (which we have a bazillion of) that doesn't look like he is ever going to reach the big club anyway.

 

So, even if you think B-Mac is better as a prospect than Danks, remember, we definitely got the better end of the other 3 players involved. And if Danks and B-Mac are pretty equivalent in potential, then we made out big time in this trade.

There's one more factor that you didn't mention. Yes, this was a trade of potential for potential. But this wasn't just a swap of two top prospects who are in AA. We traded away a major league pitcher. We traded away a guy who appeared ready to pitch well in the majors in 2007 (I'm not talking about pitching like an ace or anything like that). McCarthy has major league experience and some major league success. Danks on the other hand, has a great deal of potential but little chance of pitching well in the majors in 2007. Even if he becomes great, it is unlikely that he's show up in Chicago this year and show it this early.

 

So Danks might be better than McCarthy in the future, but it hurts the 2007 team. And the AL Central's 3rd place team didn't need a downgrade, it needed an upgrade. That is, if we wanted to contend this year.

[NorthSideSox72]

There's one more factor that you didn't mention. Yes, this was a trade of potential for potential. But this wasn't just a swap of two top prospects who are in AA. We traded away a major league pitcher. We traded away a guy who appeared ready to pitch well in the majors in 2007 (I'm not talking about pitching like an ace or anything like that). McCarthy has major league experience and some major league success. Danks on the other hand, has a great deal of potential but little chance of pitching well in the majors in 2007. Even if he becomes great, it is unlikely that he's show up in Chicago this year and show it this early.

 

So Danks might be better than McCarthy in the future, but it hurts the 2007 team. And the AL Central's 3rd place team didn't need a downgrade, it needed an upgrade. That is, if we wanted to contend this year.

I don't agree with that. I have not seen Danks pitch, but from what I have been able to read so far, and know about B-Mac, I don't think one is more ready than the other. If both pitchers were to start in 2007 at the ML level, which I suspect they will, they seem to have similar chances for success. B-Mac has the advantage of having seen MLB hitting. But he also has the downfall of having not done well against it in 2006. There is positive and negative there.

 

I think Danks/B-Mac is probably even-up for 2007, if Danks is in the rotation. They will both struggle at times, and show brilliance at other times. No one knows for sure how often each will occur, though.

[NCsoxfan]

Has there been any commentary of the trade posted by Sportsline or ESPN Insider? If so, what was said?

[SoxHawk1980]

I don't agree with that. I have not seen Danks pitch, but from what I have been able to read so far, and know about B-Mac, I don't think one is more ready than the other. If both pitchers were to start in 2007 at the ML level, which I suspect they will, they seem to have similar chances for success. B-Mac has the advantage of having seen MLB hitting. But he also has the downfall of having not done well against it in 2006. There is positive and negative there.

 

I think Danks/B-Mac is probably even-up for 2007, if Danks is in the rotation. They will both struggle at times, and show brilliance at other times. No one knows for sure how often each will occur, though.

I'm sorry, but this just doesn't make any sense at all to me. McCarthy is a pitcher with 151 ip in two major league seasons, including 12 starts. Danks is a pitcher who has 70 ip in AAA and no major league experience. McCarthy had more time in the minors as well. And, in his time in the majors, McCarthy compiled a near major league average ERA of 4.68. He has major league experience, some major league success, he knows AL hitters. Danks has none of that AND we don't even know if he will ever be able to handle major league hitters. Being merely a completely untested prospect at this point, his question mark is considerably bigger than McCarthy's, particuarly for 2007.

 

There is a lot of room for debate over which pitcher will eventually be better. But I think all evidence, common sense and rationality tells you that in 2007, McCarthy >> Danks.

[Harry Chappas]

So Danks might be better than McCarthy in the future, but it hurts the 2007 team. And the AL Central's 3rd place team didn't need a downgrade, it needed an upgrade. That is, if we wanted to contend this year.

 

 

Wasn't there another person is this trade that throws mid 90's and has threee plus pitches? Does he not get factored in here? To me it sounds like a great 5th/6th inning guy which we will need seeing as we traded our Ace.

[iamshack]

There is a lot of room for debate over which pitcher will eventually be better. But I think all evidence, common sense and rationality tells you that in 2007, McCarthy >> Danks.

 

But that isn't necessarily the question to ask in regards to the 07' season. It may be instead who is better this year, McCarthy or Haeger? McCarthy or Floyd? McCarthy or Phillips? I don't believe it is a foregone conclusion that Brandon is going to significantly outpitch whomever wins the starting job for us out of ST. It's probably more likely that he will produce better numbers; but as for how significant they will be, well, that is a different story.

 

Secondly, and not to beat a dead horse here because this has been argued here on several occasions in recent weeks, but it isn't a fact that this team needs to be upgraded in 07' to reach the playoffs. The team was upgraded in 06', and didn't win. It's nearly impossible to tell with any certainty right now how the division will play out this season. And everyone wants to harp on the fact that the WS finished in third place last season; yet they forget that our WS won 7 more games than the eventual World Series champions. Unfortunately, we don't play in the NL Central, but simply because 90 wins wasn't enough to get it done last year, doesn't mean it won't be enough this year. With better performances from Mark and Jose, no one can say with any certainty whatsoever that this team won't make the playoffs this year. They have plenty of talent to do so.

[SoxHawk1980]

Numbers are numbers, but Danks has been the youngest guy in the league every step of the way. Last year in AAA he was the youngest pitcher in the league, struggled to begin with and then dominated, the same pattern he has developed his whole career.

This isn't entirely true. We have limited data on this kid, but we can at least accurately analyze what little data there is. It is true that when he first went up to AA Frisco (Texas League), he struggled (5.49 ERA, 1.54 WHIP). That was for 18 games in 2005. But then when he started the 2006 season in Frisco (before his call up to AAA), he didn't exactly "dominate" (4.15 ERA, 1.39 WHIP). Then, of course, he didn't exactly dominate when he got to AAA (4.33 ERA, 1.44 WHIP).

 

I know his stuff looks great according to everyone's scouting report, but it appears that he has yet to dominate or even pitch very well at a level above A-ball.

 

I think the significance of this is twofold:

 

1) From the statistical record, it appears that he isn't particularly major league ready, and we shouldn't think that he'll be able to help the major league club in 2007.

 

2) He is definitely not a can't miss prospect.

 

Wasn't there another person is this trade that throws mid 90's and has threee plus pitches? Does he not get factored in here? To me it sounds like a great 5th/6th inning guy which we will need seeing as we traded our Ace.

Yes, we can factor him [Masset) in. I don't think he has "three plus pitches". If he does, then he certainly doesn't know how to throw them yet. Have you looked at his stats? He has 8 ip in the majors which were a mixed bag, but I don't think 8 ip tell us anything (except that he has very little major league experience). Before that, he had only 67 ip in AAA and didn't pitch very well there (4.81 ERA, 1.60 WHIP), and that was mostly as a reliever. So, I'll buy that the stuff looks good, but he has had difficulty putting it together. I am skeptical that a guy who couldn't pitch very well in AAA can come up to the majors and pitch well this year. Maybe with more seasoning, he can develop into a good major league reliever. So again, this trade still hurts the Sox in 2007.

[chisox72]

I've taken a little time to think this over before I posted. First of all, for all those so-called Sox fans that are ready to give up on the 2007 season before New Year's, the bandwagon ride is over. You guys sound as if you started rooting for my beloved team in October 2005. Feel free to jump off the bandwagon and I hope you break your ankles as you hit the ground. You can hate the trade or you can love the trade but you never give up on the team. You root for the player but love the laundry.

 

Now my post has a lot of sarcasm in it so try to follow me.

 

KW gets panned for trading Freddy Garcia for Gavin Floyd and Gio Hernandez. My first reaction to the Freddy trade was I thought KW should've received more in return for a guy who throws 87 mph heat and allows runners to run the bases like it's a merry-go-round. However, I decided to do a little research before I form an opinion. Yah he's a big game pitcher and won 17 games last year. Out of the 17 games he won, the Sox offense scored 6 or more runs in 13 of them. The main reason he won those many games is because the Sox were third in MLB in runs scored. Here's a guy who gave up nearly 5 earned runs a game, is in his walk year, and I expected to get a kings ransom for him? If KW could've got a better package for Freddy don't you think he would've done so? Well, ok I was wrong and decided Kenny knows better. The Sox did manage to get the 2nd ranked left-handed prospect in all of baseball and got Floyd as basically a throw-in. This trade basically opens up a roster spot for Cy McCarthy! I mean, after all, he did manage to shut down Boston, Texas, and the heavy hitting 2005 Twins, right? This guy came up and set the baseball world on fire, much like Liriano did in 2006. He's ready for ten Cy Young awards in a row! Then guess what? Kenny lost his mind again and traded our "Dontrelle Willis"! How could he do this to us? I like many others thought BMac was ruined in 2006 because they used him in the bullpen. It's a completely different mindset preparing for relief pitching as it is for starting. You look at how the Red Sox ruined Jonathan Papelbon by using him in relief. Papelbon was one of the BoSox's top starting pitcher prospects and decided to use him as a reliever. That guy had a horrible year and only saved 35 games with a 0.92 era. Obviously, the name of the game is to get the batters out no matter what the situation. Papelbon failed miserably. So KW trades Cy McCarthy and we only received the top ranked left handed prospect (6th overall I believe) in all of baseball. In addition we get a reliever who can throw some serious heat. This trade could do for the White Sox what trading Pierzyinski did for the Twins (Nathan, Liriano, and Bonser).

 

The Garcia trade opened up the 5th spot in the rotation for a player that has question marks. We then traded McCarthy for 3 question marks but could eventually be better than Brandon. The 2007 season does not completely hinge on the 5 spot. It hinges on one through four to pitch the way we expect them to. You can't compare this situation to the 2004 5th starter debacle. The only decent pitcher the Sox had that year was Buehrle. The rest of the starting rotation wasn't that strong with a nearly 5.00 staff era. I fully expect this year's front four to be one of the best in the AL. Buehrle will bounce back and Jon will probably flirt with 18 wins again. Who the heck said Contreras was injury prone? He's averaged 31 starts the past three years. Please tell me where he's injury prone. The wild card in the rotation is Vasquez. He's got the stuff but does he have the mental makeup to get past his so-called 5 inning starts? I tell you what, if Javier had the same run support Freddy got, Javier would've won 17+ games. In his last ten starts, the Sox averaged less than 2 runs per game. It's these four guys that will make or break the 2007 season. Not McCarthy.

 

Floyd will not be in the running for the fifth starter position. Kenny has said he will either be in the bullpen for this year or if he decides he'd rather start, he'll start out in the minors. I truly believe Charlie Haegar will get the 5th spot. I don't care if he throws a knuckler or 100 mph heat. If you can get the hitters out, you're doing your job. I've seen plenty of guys throw 95+ and get knocked around like a pinball.

 

For the true White Sox fans, get the hell off the ledge. The White Sox still have one of the top ranked offenses in all of baseball. The front four rotation won't be as bad as it was for the 90 win 2006 team. The fifth starter only needs to be .500 or better and the bullpen will be downright nasty. It's going to be a great year and I can't wait for the season to start.

 

Can I get an AMEN?!?!?!?!

 

Awesome post. You hit the nail right on the head as far as I am concerned.

[SoxHawk1980]

But that isn't necessarily the question to ask in regards to the 07' season. It may be instead who is better this year, McCarthy or Haeger? McCarthy or Floyd? McCarthy or Phillips? I don't believe it is a foregone conclusion that Brandon is going to significantly outpitch whomever wins the starting job for us out of ST. It's probably more likely that he will produce better numbers; but as for how significant they will be, well, that is a different story.

I think it is pretty clear that McCarthy is a hell of a lot better than Haeger, Phillips or Floyd. That is, unless Coop has a silver bullet fix for Floyd, but I think Floyd's problems go deeper than that. I haven't seen any scouting report or read any prospect analysis that puts Haeger or Phillips anywhere near the prospect status of McCarthy. And Floyd was once a top prospect, but continual and repeated failures in both the majors and AAA has caused his star to fall, and quite rightly so. Compare McCarthy's major league numbers to Floyd's and you'll see a world of difference. The only hope for Floyd to pitch anywhere near as well as McCarthy in 2007 is if Coop has a magical quick fix for him.

Secondly, and not to beat a dead horse here because this has been argued here on several occasions in recent weeks, but it isn't a fact that this team needs to be upgraded in 07' to reach the playoffs. The team was upgraded in 06', and didn't win. It's nearly impossible to tell with any certainty right now how the division will play out this season. And everyone wants to harp on the fact that the WS finished in third place last season; yet they forget that our WS won 7 more games than the eventual World Series champions. Unfortunately, we don't play in the NL Central, but simply because 90 wins wasn't enough to get it done last year, doesn't mean it won't be enough this year. With better performances from Mark and Jose, no one can say with any certainty whatsoever that this team won't make the playoffs this year. They have plenty of talent to do so.

Yes, they can contend with this team. Yes, anything can happen. Of course there are many variables. But by decreasing the talent level of the major league team in 2007, KW has made that team's chances to contend more remote.

[iamshack]

I think it is pretty clear that McCarthy is a hell of a lot better than Haeger, Phillips or Floyd.

 

I don't. My apologies but last season's effort in the bullpen didn't do much to convince me of anything about McCarthy. And his 7 starts in 05' are not enough to be "pretty clear" about anything.

 

Haeger's numbers in AAA are very impressive. While he doesn't come with the pedigree that McCarthy does, I can't say it is clear at all that he couldn't put up numbers very similar to those of McCarthy- at least w/l and ERA.

 

Yes, they can contend with this team. Yes, anything can happen. Of course there are many variables. But by decreasing the talent level of the major league team in 2007, KW has made that team's chances to contend more remote.

 

I don't think the word "remote" accurate describes our chances at all. I would use the phrase "fairly good" to describe them.

[SoxHawk1980]

I don't. My apologies but last season's effort in the bullpen didn't do much to convince me of anything about McCarthy. And his 7 starts in 05' are not enough to be "pretty clear" about anything.

 

Haeger's numbers in AAA are very impressive. While he doesn't come with the pedigree that McCarthy does, I can't say it is clear at all that he couldn't put up numbers very similar to those of McCarthy- at least w/l and ERA.

You are of course entitled to your opinion. I will just point out that I don't think there is a person involved in scouting or analyzing prospects, or anyone in baseball who agrees with you.

I don't think the word "remote" accurate describes our chances at all. I would use the phrase "fairly good" to describe them.

Actually, what I said is that KW's moves have made our chances of contending "more remote," as in we have less of a chance of contending in 2007 than we did before KW's moves this offseason.

 

Say what you will about these trades KW has made. Feel free to recognize that KW has restocked our minors with some really good top pitching prospects. And yes the future of Sox pitching looks good because of it. But at the same time, let us not pretend that KW has not made the 2007 Sox team worse in the process.

[Gregory Pratt]

If Haeger is starting in the Majors next year, I'll bet he beats McCarthy in wins and ERA.

[fathom]

Say what you will about these trades KW has made. Feel free to recognize that KW has restocked our minors with some really good top pitching prospects. And yes the future of Sox pitching looks good because of it. But at the same time, let us not pretend that KW has not made the 2007 Sox team worse in the process.

 

If the Sox don't play well this year, it's going to be very interesting to see how the fans react. While there's many smart fans on here that understand these moves, I'd have to say that the majority of White Sox fans that don't understand the behind-the-scenes nature of the sport feel as if JR and KW are rebuilding, and not reloading. As for me personally, I was hoping this type of offseason would occur after the 2007 season, and not the 2006 season.

 

If Haeger is starting in the Majors next year, I'll bet he beats McCarthy in wins and ERA.

 

It's amazing what some quality relief innings in worthless September games will do for some people's reputation. We went into this offseason with Haeger possibly being the last reliever on the roster to him being the odds-on favorite to be the #5 starter.

[SoxHawk1980]

If Haeger is starting in the Majors next year, I'll bet he beats McCarthy in wins and ERA.

I bet McCarthy will have at least twice as many wins as Haeger. As far as ERA, I would prefer to use ERA+ which normalizes for park factors. And I think McCarthy's ERA+ and WHIP will be much better than Haeger's. Frankly, I think if Haeger starts the season as the #5 starter, I doubt he'll make more than 10 starts before he is replaced by Floyd or Danks due to performance.

 

If the Sox don't play well this year, it's going to be very interesting to see how the fans react. While there's many smart fans on here that understand these moves, I'd have to say that the majority of White Sox fans that don't understand the behind-the-scenes nature of the sport feel as if JR and KW are rebuilding, and not reloading. As for me personally, I was hoping this type of offseason would occur after the 2007 season, and not the 2006 season.

If the Sox again don't make the playoffs, the I-love-KW crowd will give Kenny no blame whatsoever. They will say:

 

1) We wouldn't have made the playoffs anyway, even with Garcia and McCarthy.

 

and

 

2) Thank God Kenny loaded us up with pitching prospects because next year we're going to have at least 3 young aces in Danks, Floyd, and Gio.

 

And if they don't pan out in 2008, it will be "wait until next year, they'll surely arrive then." And if they don't pan out in 2009...

[fathom]

The reason the 2004-2005 offseason was so successful for KW and the Sox was that KW was able to point out where we need help, and he was able to fill those holes. The troubling part right now is that he's done little to fill the holes that we had coming into this offseason (LF, back-up 4th outfielder, relief depth). The best move that KW has made this offseason, by far, is signing Toby Hall.

[aboz56]

My favorite BMac moment was when he spot started for El-duque in 2005 vs the Cubs and shut them down!!

And we lost that game.

 

Sorry folks, Mac is gonna get shelled in Texas.

[Jeremy]

AMEN! I couldn't have said it better!

 

Kenny Williams has been right more often than not. My vote is Kenny and Coop saw something in B-Mac they didn't like and a chance to pick up potential. Kenny was a big part in bringing the only World Series winner to the South Side in my lifetime I would trust his judgement over the vast majority of the people on this board who never played the game and don't see these athletes on a daily basis.

 

I can't wait to see these guys after they work with Cooper. Another thing that makes me extremely optimistic is the clubhouse atmosphere that is forming. I don't know how many of you read Bobby Jenks comments on how he can't wait to work together with these guys.

 

I've seen this view a lot. I agree that Kenny and Coop in particular deserve some benefit of the doubt considering the success they've had up to this point. That said, I'm not willing to react to every move the Sox make by saying "Well, we'll just have to see what happens. Kenny knows what's best." You're right that he's suceeded more often than not but he's still made his share of mistakes. While I will never have access to the amount of information that he does, I feel that I follow baseball closely enough to form an opinion on transactions. I'm willing to stand by my opinions even when met with some scorn (I'd still defend my criticism of the Garcia since we likely could've signed him without the trade).