2007 Post ASB White Sox Catch-All Thread

[Heads22]

There's nothing I enjoy more than a candlelight dinner with John Schuerholz. What I love most are when we just lie next to each other, talking until sunrise. I don't even get tired, cause I cherish every moment we spend together.

 

Little over the top, no?

[SoxAce]

Whitesox.com has Gavin starting on Wednesday against the gambler.

 

Comcast Sportsnet has him going on Tuesday against Bonderman..

 

I hope that isn't the case because I have Wednesday off work and I want to see Gavin pitch.

[Gregory Pratt]

Little over the top, no?

 

hey, I'm a sentimental kind of guy.

[CWSGuy406]

So as I was rolling around in bed last night in my 85 degree (at least -- it's probably closer to 90) dorm room, I was thinking that Kenny Williams has to do something extremely drastic this winter to 'save' the Sox. And the one thing I kept coming back to was trading Konerko. After this season, Konerko is on board for three years, $36 million (I believe that's correct). He's going to be coming off of his 4th straight 30+ homer season (three more to go this year), yet I have a hunch that this year might be the first of Konerko's slow decline (he turns 32 in March). I tend to believe that Konerko's perceived value (30 HR - 100 RBI guy, veteran presence, proven playoff guy, clubhouse leader) is greater than his "on-field" value (for example -- Konerko leads Casey Kotchman in HRs by about 18 yet still trails Kotch in OPS+. I also tend to believe people overrate Konerko's defense -- he can pick 'em out of the dirt as well as anyone, but his range is non-existant and isn't going to get better).

 

Off the top of my head, both LA teams and Baltimore are in need of a first baseman. There's a couple other teams out there as well (Texas, New York) who could feasibly put in a bid, but I think the former three make more sense. I've said plenty of times that my ideal scenario would be a trade with Anahiem where we're getting Kotchman and another player in return (Figgins? Willits? Santana?), but I also believe you could work it out with the Dodgers or the Orioles (for a package centered around Furcal or Tejada -- that would even out salaries for 2008).

 

Kenny needs to go back to being the guy that was made fun of in Moneyball -- the GM who is willing to go out on a limb. I guess to a certain extent he did that this past winter, but I think he needs to trade Konerko, Contreras and Garland for the best available packages.

 

I know the problem with dealing Konerko is that it's automatically going to be taken as "the Sox are officially rebuilding." But I don't think it has to be that way. If by chance you got that Kotchman and Figgins for Konerko deal, it would allow you to go after Hunter/Jones/Rowand. From there, I'd look to find my SS of next season (and hopefully beyond) in Garland's or Contreras' return. That would leave you with a lineup of (this needs some tinkering, BTW):

 

C - Pierzynski

1B - Kotchman

2B - Richar/Figgins

3B - Crede/Figgins

SS - ______________

DH - Thome

LF - Fields/Figgins

CF - Hunter/Jones/Rowand (If it were up to me, A-Jones)

RF - Dye

 

Comparing this offense to the 2007 offense, you are improved at three spots (LF, CF, SS) -- you're probably improved at 3B and 2B. The dropoff in production at first-base is minimal. A lot still rests on how healthy Dye and Thome can stay, but I don't see anything that can rectify that in the next couple months.

[Milkman delivers]

I've been saying we should trade Konerko for a few months. It makes a lot of sense.

[Rowand44]

So as I was rolling around in bed last night in my 85 degree (at least -- it's probably closer to 90) dorm room, I was thinking that Kenny Williams has to do something extremely drastic this winter to 'save' the Sox. And the one thing I kept coming back to was trading Konerko. After this season, Konerko is on board for three years, $36 million (I believe that's correct). He's going to be coming off of his 4th straight 30+ homer season (three more to go this year), yet I have a hunch that this year might be the first of Konerko's slow decline (he turns 32 in March). I tend to believe that Konerko's perceived value (30 HR - 100 RBI guy, veteran presence, proven playoff guy, clubhouse leader) is greater than his "on-field" value (for example -- Konerko leads Casey Kotchman in HRs by about 18 yet still trails Kotch in OPS+. I also tend to believe people overrate Konerko's defense -- he can pick 'em out of the dirt as well as anyone, but his range is non-existant and isn't going to get better).

 

Off the top of my head, both LA teams and Baltimore are in need of a first baseman. There's a couple other teams out there as well (Texas, New York) who could feasibly put in a bid, but I think the former three make more sense. I've said plenty of times that my ideal scenario would be a trade with Anahiem where we're getting Kotchman and another player in return (Figgins? Willits? Santana?), but I also believe you could work it out with the Dodgers or the Orioles (for a package centered around Furcal or Tejada -- that would even out salaries for 2008).

 

Kenny needs to go back to being the guy that was made fun of in Moneyball -- the GM who is willing to go out on a limb. I guess to a certain extent he did that this past winter, but I think he needs to trade Konerko, Contreras and Garland for the best available packages.

 

I know the problem with dealing Konerko is that it's automatically going to be taken as "the Sox are officially rebuilding." But I don't think it has to be that way. If by chance you got that Kotchman and Figgins for Konerko deal, it would allow you to go after Hunter/Jones/Rowand. From there, I'd look to find my SS of next season (and hopefully beyond) in Garland's or Contreras' return. That would leave you with a lineup of (this needs some tinkering, BTW):

 

C - Pierzynski

1B - Kotchman

2B - Richar/Figgins

3B - Crede/Figgins

SS - ______________

DH - Thome

LF - Fields/Figgins

CF - Hunter/Jones/Rowand (If it were up to me, A-Jones)

RF - Dye

 

Comparing this offense to the 2007 offense, you are improved at three spots (LF, CF, SS) -- you're probably improved at 3B and 2B. The dropoff in production at first-base is minimal. A lot still rests on how healthy Dye and Thome can stay, but I don't see anything that can rectify that in the next couple months.

 

Very well thought out. Love the idea.

[Gregory Pratt]

I've loved the thought of trading Konerko for a long, long time and have advocated it for quite awhile only to be blasted for it. Since last offseason and I think I rumbled about it before. At this point, I doubt you get Kotchman for him. Why would they give up Kotchman for him? Homeruns? Doubt it. I think people are underestimating Stoneman's refusal to trade young pieces, and since Kotchman has shown himself to be quite capable, I doubt they'll give him away for Konerko's contract and hip, especially since Konerko isn't obviously superior and almost definitely won't be going into the future.

Edited September 4, 2007 by Gregory Pratt

[santo=dorf]

Oh yeah, I'm all over a career .262/.333/.407 first baseman with 17 home runs in 701 at-bats. Travis Lee could give us the same production

[CWSGuy406]

Copied from last night's game-thread because I don't want it to get buried there.

 

When all is said done, I think the 2006 Sox might look like a significantly better team than 2007 DET. Sort of surprising.

 

The first half of 2006 might be the best I've ever seen any White Sox team play. I know the pitching was mediocre but the offense was an absolute buzzsaw. I know in some sense 2006 has to be seen as a failure, but if not for some circumstances of historic proportions (talking about Minnesota here, getting the "perfect storm" of second half excellence from Mauer, Morneau, Santana and for a short time Liriano), that team would've been playoff bound.

 

Speaking of which, that would've been quite interesting if the Sox did make the playoffs last season. There would be no way Ozzie could start Contreras OR Buehrle in either of the first two games. In fact, I wouldn't have either in the top three -- Vazquez probably would've been my game one starter, followed by Garland or Garcia, depending on whether the series was home or away.

[claydude14]

When's the halfway to St. Patrick's Day game this year?

[knightni]

When's the halfway to St. Patrick's Day game this year?

 

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/schedule/p...ns.jsp?c_id=cws

 

Sept 14.

 

 

[knightni]

 

http://bp0.blogger.com/_W6YuhWU3sm8/RuDcl_...h/PH7-9-9-7.jpg

[Balta1701]

Jerry Owens' line so far in Sept:

 

.313 .389 .344 .733, 2/4 SB's.

[NorthSideSox72]

Probably the worst thing that could happen for this team.

Oh come on now. I know people here aren't big Owens fans for the most part, but jeez, the guy has done pretty well since his recent call-up, continues to improve his hitting and has been a pleasant surprise on defense. It amazes me that people wanted BA to keep playing all year while never reaching .200, and some of those same people wrote off Owens before he even got here (despite that he has been far more productive than Anderson was his first year).

 

Believe me, I'd rather have Rowand or Hunter or someone else high caliber out there in CF in 2008, and have Owens as the 4th OF, if that situation can work. But if we can't get that done, I think Owens will probably do OK in a full season out there. He would probably be better than we got out of the CF position offensively in 2005, 2006 or 2007.

 

[Heads22]

Oh come on now. I know people here aren't big Owens fans for the most part, but jeez, the guy has done pretty well since his recent call-up, continues to improve his hitting and has been a pleasant surprise on defense. It amazes me that people wanted BA to keep playing all year while never reaching .200, and some of those same people wrote off Owens before he even got here (despite that he has been far more productive than Anderson was his first year).

 

Believe me, I'd rather have Rowand or Hunter or someone else high caliber out there in CF in 2008, and have Owens as the 4th OF, if that situation can work. But if we can't get that done, I think Owens will probably do OK in a full season out there. He would probably be better than we got out of the CF position offensively in 2005, 2006 or 2007.

 

One of the big problems is Jerry isn't a centerfielder. It'd be a lot easier to put up with it if he didn't quadruple hop throws to the cutoff man.

[CWSGuy406]

Believe me, I'd rather have Rowand or Hunter or someone else high caliber out there in CF in 2008, and have Owens as the 4th OF, if that situation can work. But if we can't get that done, I think Owens will probably do OK in a full season out there. He would probably be better than we got out of the CF position offensively in 2005, 2006 or 2007.

 

I'll repeat what I've said several times -- if Jerry Owens is a starter on Opening Day for the 2008 White Sox, something will have gone horribly, horribly wrong this winter.

 

And if, by saying"Owens will probably do OK", you mean that Owens will hit .260/.315/.300, that's fine. I don't consider that "okay". That's awful, and it's keeping the same BS low standards we've had since Podsednik came aboard. And no, Owens hitting .260/.315/.300 wouldn't be acceptable if he was hitting ninth, either -- we're already going to be carrying one (relatively) weak bat next season at 2B in Richar, we can't afford another. Richar is, or should be, our one and only "experiment" for 2008 -- the other spots need to be filled with good prospects (like Josh Fields) or solid FA performers (Andruw Jones).

[CWSGuy406]

Also a little fun (albeit useless, Jason Stark or Tim Kurkjian style) fact here that's semi-related to my last post. Jerry Owens will turn 27 (!!!) in February. Jon Garland will turn 28 at the end of this month.

Edited September 10, 2007 by CWSGuy406

[Kalapse]

Oh come on now. I know people here aren't big Owens fans for the most part, but jeez, the guy has done pretty well since his recent call-up, continues to improve his hitting and has been a pleasant surprise on defense. It amazes me that people wanted BA to keep playing all year while never reaching .200, and some of those same people wrote off Owens before he even got here (despite that he has been far more productive than Anderson was his first year).

 

Believe me, I'd rather have Rowand or Hunter or someone else high caliber out there in CF in 2008, and have Owens as the 4th OF, if that situation can work. But if we can't get that done, I think Owens will probably do OK in a full season out there. He would probably be better than we got out of the CF position offensively in 2005, 2006 or 2007.

He's put up a .265/.327/.315/.642 since being recalled and that's including the little hot streak he's had over the past week and a half or so which upped his OPS by about 26 points (.260/.310/.306/.616 when September started.) He's had 8 XBH and has struck out 43 times in 238 ABs so expect him to K over 100 times and maybe have 20 XBH if he's the leadoff hitter next season. He has been bad, real bad and if he's the leadoff hitter for the 2008 White Sox then we'll probably have a top 8 pick in the 2009 draft as well.

[NorthSideSox72]

I'll repeat what I've said several times -- if Jerry Owens is a starter on Opening Day for the 2008 White Sox, something will have gone horribly, horribly wrong this winter.

 

And if, by saying"Owens will probably do OK", you mean that Owens will hit .260/.315/.300, that's fine. I don't consider that "okay". That's awful, and it's keeping the same BS low standards we've had since Podsednik came aboard. And no, Owens hitting .260/.315/.300 wouldn't be acceptable if he was hitting ninth, either -- we're already going to be carrying one (relatively) weak bat next season at 2B in Richar, we can't afford another. Richar is, or should be, our one and only "experiment" for 2008 -- the other spots need to be filled with good prospects (like Josh Fields) or solid FA performers (Andruw Jones).

Like I said, I certainly prefer other players to Owens. But when I say "OK", I am saying I think Owens can get on base at a .330-.350 clip, which is only slightly higher than what he is doing since his July callup (which is .327). Add to that some significant speed and basestealing talent, and good defense in CF (other than a sub-standard arm), and if he is your Plan C or D, that ain't too bad. Let's just hope we don't get to Plan D.

 

That seems to be where we differ - you think he can get on base at .315, I think he can do 20 or 30 more points than that in his first full season. His hitting keeps improving, and he is taking more walks also. That isn't spectacular, but a significant improvement from what we've gotten out of the position in recent years (especially when you tack on the stolen bases).

 

And I disagree with whomever said he isn't a CF. He looks pretty decent out there to me, and his arm has been bothered by a slight injury. He's is certainly no Rowand or Hunter or Anderson, but he's about league average and he's improving as time goes on.

 

[Balta1701]

Like I said, I certainly prefer other players to Owens. But when I say "OK", I am saying I think Owens can get on base at a .330-.350 clip, which is only slightly higher than what he is doing since his July callup (which is .327). Add to that some significant speed and basestealing talent, and good defense in CF (other than a sub-standard arm), and if he is your Plan C or D, that ain't too bad. Let's just hope we don't get to Plan D.

Just to add ot the discussion, I piled up all of the cumulative OBP's this year by people with at least 250 at bats in the leadoff spot.

 

RK PLAYER OBP

1 Hanley Ramirez 0.408

2 Brian Giles 0.4

3 Ichiro Suzuki 0.396

4 Rickie Weeks 0.388

5 Kelly Johnson 0.387

6 Brian Roberts 0.383

7 Kenny Lofton 0.381

8 Grady Sizemore 0.38

9 Willy Taveras 0.372

10 Curtis Granderson 0.366

11 David DeJesus 0.363

12 Reggie Willits 0.363

13 Jose Reyes 0.36

14 Luis Castillo 0.356

15 Jimmy Rollins 0.355

16 Shannon Stewart 0.352

17 Johnny Damon 0.347

18 David Eckstein 0.342

19 Corey Hart 0.341

20 Alfonso Soriano 0.341

21 Alex Rios 0.341

22 Rafael Furcal 0.339

23 Marcus Giles 0.334

24 Akinori Iwamura 0.332

25 Dave Roberts 0.323

26 Ryan Freel 0.318

27 Chris B. Young 0.31

28 Jerry Owens 0.309

29 Felipe Lopez 0.297

30 Craig Biggio 0.294

31 Julio Lugo 0.286

If Jerry Owens could put up a .350 OBP for a full season, with his speed, that would put him IMO well into the group of "Better leadoff hitters" in the league. He'd be in the upper half of OBP, and his speed would be making up for some of the lack of slugging. But of course...that is a big if.

 

But then again...if the other options are things like they would have been last year...spending $10 million a season on a Dave Roberts or on a Juan Pierre (.323 OBP this year)...you can guess which option I think would be the bigger gamble.

[Kalapse]

Dave Roberts got no where near $10M a year. He got nearly half that.

 

I want David DeJesus. He's going to be dealt this offseason and his value is way down after his slugging% took a huge hit this season. I want him.

[NorthSideSox72]

Just to add ot the discussion, I piled up all of the cumulative OBP's this year by people with at least 250 at bats in the leadoff spot.

 

If Jerry Owens could put up a .350 OBP for a full season, with his speed, that would put him IMO well into the group of "Better leadoff hitters" in the league. He'd be in the upper half of OBP, and his speed would be making up for some of the lack of slugging. But of course...that is a big if.

 

But then again...if the other options are things like they would have been last year...spending $10 million a season on a Dave Roberts or on a Juan Pierre (.323 OBP this year)...you can guess which option I think would be the bigger gamble.

That's kind of what I was thinking. I'd sure rather see Hunter/Rowand out there patrolling CF, if the money is right. but if its not, or if it means spending $10M on a Juan Pierre, I'd much rather stick with Owens.

 

[Balta1701]

That's kind of what I was thinking. I'd sure rather see Hunter/Rowand out there patrolling CF, if the money is right. but if its not, or if it means spending $10M on a Juan Pierre, I'd much rather stick with Owens.

IMO, the money will simply not be right. The only way I think that the money for either of those 2 would make sense is if we could deal Garland and pick up a young SS like Hu, Escobar, or Aybar. But then again, I still say priority #1 is a new SS.

[NorthSideSox72]

IMO, the money will simply not be right. The only way I think that the money for either of those 2 would make sense is if we could deal Garland and pick up a young SS like Hu, Escobar, or Aybar. But then again, I still say priority #1 is a new SS.

I tend to agree that SS should be first priority. If Crede is healthy, then the OF (with Fields in it) is set at the corners, and CF is the question mark. But, if Crede is not going to be healthy and ready, then that causes a problem, and the OF suddenly becomes more important. In any case, all the more reason to settle the SS position first.

 

[Rowand44]

One of the big problems is Jerry isn't a centerfielder. It'd be a lot easier to put up with it if he didn't quadruple hop throws to the cutoff man.

Bad arm or not he's been much better than advertised in CF. That's the least of my problems with him, he's just not a good hitter. I would love for him to be able to put up a .350 or so obp but I don't think that'll ever happen. If he's our leadoff hitter next season, yikes.