Are the White Sox a Mess ?

[BMac Attack]

Sorry, I'm hopping on a bus to Thanksgiving dinner here in a second, so I'm not going to be able to defend this right up front.

 

However, what I think is that the Sox are actually less of a mess than I thought them to be a day ago, and the reason for that is they didn't sign Torii Hunter. That's just too big a contract for a team that finished 72-90 and has this many holes. It's going to take a few years to right this ship if we want to do it the right way, and though we should have gone into rebuilding with a better agenda, all I can ask is to not give out contracts that will tie our hands down the road 3-5 years from now when we're competitive. Hunter will probably be playing past his prime in 4-5 years - his history has marked him as a bit fragile in my mind, and we didn't want to pay for that.

 

The Sox should be on a 2 to 3-year plan. If we're going to be competitive before then, it's going to have to be cobbled together no matter what. Signing Torii Hunter was going to make us better, but not good enough. Thank God Kenny didn't overpay chasing a really foolish dream of some kind of miracle turnaround, even if he wanted to. He's now got a chance to change this organization with some sort of actual plan. Obviously Hunter wasn't impressed enough with the current plan to sign, although if we really got outbid $20M it may not have mattered.

 

The Cabrera signing still makes sense to me in light of the failed Hunter signing; it does make us a bit more competitive this year as well as freeing up some money. Still a pretty darn good trade in my mind, considering we weren't going to be resigning Jon at his likely price.

 

In my mind, it's a Thanksiving miracle. Go enjoy your turkey and pumpkin pie, and be thankful that we aren't, as of right now, launching off on some half-baked "reloading" plan.

[witesoxfan]

Step 1: Trade a young inning eater pitcher for a 33 year old SS who's VORP is Juan Uribe ish.

 

Regardless of the other two (thinking objectively, I might prefer Rowand to Hunter in both the short and long term...higher ceiling and the durability issues are not there, only the recklessness issue), do some f***ing research, thus preventing you from looking like an idiot.

 

Orlando Cabrera - 31.7

Juan Uribe - -0.6 (yes, that's a negative number)

 

But yeah, a 32.3 difference in VORP is comparable.

[RME JICO]

Regardless of the other two (thinking objectively, I might prefer Rowand to Hunter in both the short and long term...higher ceiling and the durability issues are not there, only the recklessness issue), do some f***ing research, thus preventing you from looking like an idiot.

 

Orlando Cabrera - 31.7

Juan Uribe - -0.6 (yes, that's a negative number)

 

But yeah, a 32.3 difference in VORP is comparable.

You could even do it like this:

VORP:

Cabrera 31.7

 

Garland 26.6

Uribe -0.6

Total 26.0

 

WinShares:

Cabrera 25

 

Garland 13

Uribe 13

Total 26

 

So Cabrera has more value or near equal value to Garland and Uribe combined, which is not even accounting for Garland's replacement.

[witesoxfan]

Regardless of the other two (thinking objectively, I might prefer Rowand to Hunter in both the short and long term...higher ceiling and the durability issues are not there, only the recklessness issue), do some f***ing research, thus preventing you from looking like an idiot.

 

Orlando Cabrera - 31.7

Juan Uribe - -0.6 (yes, that's a negative number)

 

But yeah, a 32.3 difference in VORP is comparable.

 

Sorry, just to clarify the number here...

 

Juan Uribe's VORP in 2007 was -7.1; sheds even a better light on what was said, doesn't it?

[Colorado Sox Fan]

I'm feeling they're a mess. Too cheap. Small market thinking. Two shortstops. Two third basemen. No LF. No CF. No leadoff hitter. Shortage of starters. Shortage of relievers. Lots of corpse ball for your viewing pleasure.

[kwolf68]

I'm feeling they're a mess. Too cheap. Small market thinking. Two shortstops. Two third basemen. No LF. No CF. No leadoff hitter. Shortage of starters. Shortage of relievers. Lots of corpse ball for your viewing pleasure.

 

 

The White Sox remind me of the punk band Flipper. At one time Flipper had ONE guitar player, and TWO bass players. They were clearly a band of limited musical vocabulary and they had no chance of 'greatness', because they were, in short, a clusterfook, but they did scare the hell out of people and were oftentimes interesting, but you'd never confuse them for anything more than the heap they were.

 

The White Sox are Flipper except with one difference. The players in Flipper knew they sucked and didn't care about it. Kenny Williams thinks this franchise is in good shape. I think Flipper was smarter.

[Dick Allen]

I'm feeling they're a mess. Too cheap. Small market thinking. Two shortstops. Two third basemen. No LF. No CF. No leadoff hitter. Shortage of starters. Shortage of relievers. Lots of corpse ball for your viewing pleasure.

They are a team that lost 90 games and it could have been worse if not for some huge September wins. (That is sarcastic) They were bad the second half of 2006. They seem to be near or at their limit payroll-wise. The season ticket base is a lock to go down a bit. Right now, they are a mess, but at least KW has 5 months to fix it.

[sircaffey]

They are a team that lost 90 games and it could have been worse if not for some huge September wins. (That is sarcastic) They were bad the second half of 2006. They seem to be near or at their limit payroll-wise. The season ticket base is a lock to go down a bit. Right now, they are a mess, but at least KW has 5 months to fix it.

 

But can it be "fixed" in 5 months?

[greg775]

But can it be "fixed" in 5 months?

 

Only if you throw tons of money at it.

You can go last to first or near last to first if you spend the money.

[rockren]

But can it be "fixed" in 5 months?

 

I think KW has done a good job so far. He needed to make a move or two BEFORE the winter meetings and he did that.

 

I think Linebrink is overrated, but he is an answer for our SU void. I LOVED the OC trade, which filled our void at SS and in the two hole.

 

KW has been active enough IMO. I agree he has work to do, but he's done enough and has done ok at worst thus far.

 

[sircaffey]

Only if you throw tons of money at it.

You can go last to first or near last to first if you spend the money.

 

True, but that still doesn't fix our problem. We can't develop talent worth a darn. We're old. We're going to be a "mess" for a while. We just might be a patched up mess this season.

[klaus kinski]

Still a mess as of this post

[greg775]

True, but that still doesn't fix our problem. We can't develop talent worth a darn. We're old. We're going to be a "mess" for a while. We just might be a patched up mess this season.

 

I fear what Sir Caffey says is true.

I hate to compare anything to the Scrubs, but weren't the Cubs horses*** completely until

throwing some money at it last offseason?

I realize they are in the s*** division, however, as well as the crappy NL.

It would really suck if we are out of it by mid May.

I love baseball season.

 

[Chombi]

True, but that still doesn't fix our problem. We can't develop talent worth a darn. We're old. We're going to be a "mess" for a while. We just might be a patched up mess this season.

 

IMO you are 100% correct.

 

I was hoping we'd be the team making big moves, not the Twins. The Twins to me were contenders w/ Garza, Johan, Liriano, etc...Them selling off all these pieces isn't shocking but I thought'd they'd at least try to make a run.

 

The Sox on the other hand are going the opposite direction and losing out in every direction we turn. We go after big fish and seem to fail. It paints the picture to fans, and other teams even, that we have a weaker system then percieved. We are very old and our lack of scouting doesn't show significant help anytime soon. We don't go all-in money for free agents or in trades. We refuse to do business with the douchebag who just so happens to be employed by most of the good players in baseball and we refuse to do little things in the organization...like scouting!

 

The Twins are dumping guys and revamping. They do it more often then I am saying we should but we definately should've done it this year or even last season. We have a chance to have a very good draft. We have a shot to make some huge moves with our vets and just don't. IMO guys like PK, JV, JD, Crede, Jenks*, and several others should go.

 

*Watch what the Twins get for Nathan and tell me how dumb we will look at seasons end when we finish in last place with a 100+ mil payroll. Jenks could command probably one more 4-5 star prospect then Nathan, maybe more. We won't deal him though. Why deal the guy with weight concerns every year and a screw in his elbow. It'd be stupid to deal it before anyone else starts to have concerns.

 

To me, this season has nothing to do with winning the WS. It has everything to do with EGO. KW is so into his moves and his "plans" that he wants to prove that 05 wasnt a fluke and that some of his moves can actually pay off. He put this baby together and will ride until the end with it (which is hopefully at seasons end). It's going to be a loooooooong season if things don't start shaping up soon.

[ptatc]

IMO you are 100% correct.

 

I was hoping we'd be the team making big moves, not the Twins. The Twins to me were contenders w/ Garza, Johan, Liriano, etc...Them selling off all these pieces isn't shocking but I thought'd they'd at least try to make a run.

 

The Sox on the other hand are going the opposite direction and losing out in every direction we turn. We go after big fish and seem to fail. It paints the picture to fans, and other teams even, that we have a weaker system then percieved. We are very old and our lack of scouting doesn't show significant help anytime soon. We don't go all-in money for free agents or in trades. We refuse to do business with the douchebag who just so happens to be employed by most of the good players in baseball and we refuse to do little things in the organization...like scouting!

 

The Twins are dumping guys and revamping. They do it more often then I am saying we should but we definately should've done it this year or even last season. We have a chance to have a very good draft. We have a shot to make some huge moves with our vets and just don't. IMO guys like PK, JV, JD, Crede, Jenks*, and several others should go.

 

*Watch what the Twins get for Nathan and tell me how dumb we will look at seasons end when we finish in last place with a 100+ mil payroll. Jenks could command probably one more 4-5 star prospect then Nathan, maybe more. We won't deal him though. Why deal the guy with weight concerns every year and a screw in his elbow. It'd be stupid to deal it before anyone else starts to have concerns.

 

To me, this season has nothing to do with winning the WS. It has everything to do with EGO. KW is so into his moves and his "plans" that he wants to prove that 05 wasnt a fluke and that some of his moves can actually pay off. He put this baby together and will ride until the end with it (which is hopefully at seasons end). It's going to be a loooooooong season if things don't start shaping up soon.

 

Maybe everyone did have concerns which is why we were able to get him when the Angles cut him.

[Chombi]

^True but that was when he was a minor league nobody, not a top 5-10 closer in the majors.

[hotlanta13]

I think everybody is going a little overboard on how bad the White Sox really are. I have a couple of suggestions for some easy fixes:

 

Sign Fukudome. Fills the leadoff and LF spot.

 

Trade Crede for a 7th inning man. Put Fields at 3B.

 

Trade Uribe for a bag of balls. Cut payroll.

 

Contreras is our #3. If he comes back and performs, Awesome. If not, he have to put him out there just to see if we can trade him without picking up too much of his salary.

 

Let Danks, Floyd, Gio and everybody else battle for the #4, #5 slots. I liked Danks last year. Hopefully another year of seasoning will be just what he needs. We're not talking about the Brian Anderson experiment here. Danks actually showed promise.

 

Put Richar at 2B.

 

Put Owens at CF.

 

1. Fukudome

2. Cabrera

3. Thome

4. Konerko

5. Dye

6. Fields

7. AJ

8. Richar

9. Owens

 

I think that's a great looking line-up.

 

I'm not saying we're amazing, but I'm predicting Division Champs.

[fathom]

I think everybody is going a little overboard on how bad the White Sox really are. I have a couple of suggestions for some easy fixes:

 

Sign Fukudome. Fills the leadoff and LF spot.

 

Trade Crede for a 7th inning man. Put Fields at 3B.

 

Trade Uribe for a bag of balls. Cut payroll.

 

Contreras is our #3. If he comes back and performs, Awesome. If not, he have to put him out there just to see if we can trade him without picking up too much of his salary.

 

Let Danks, Floyd, Gio and everybody else battle for the #4, #5 slots. I liked Danks last year. Hopefully another year of seasoning will be just what he needs. We're not talking about the Brian Anderson experiment here. Danks actually showed promise.

 

Put Richar at 2B.

 

Put Owens at CF.

 

1. Fukudome

2. Cabrera

3. Thome

4. Konerko

5. Dye

6. Fields

7. AJ

8. Richar

9. Owens

 

I think that's a great looking line-up.

 

I'm not saying we're amazing, but I'm predicting Division Champs.

 

There's still that whole starting pitching issue, in which we might have the worst rotation in the division (along with KC).

Edited December 2, 2007 by fathom

[Chombi]

I think everybody is going a little overboard on how bad the White Sox really are. I have a couple of suggestions for some easy fixes:

 

Sign Fukudome. Fills the leadoff and LF spot.

 

Trade Crede for a 7th inning man. Put Fields at 3B.

 

Trade Uribe for a bag of balls. Cut payroll.

 

Contreras is our #3. If he comes back and performs, Awesome. If not, he have to put him out there just to see if we can trade him without picking up too much of his salary.

 

Let Danks, Floyd, Gio and everybody else battle for the #4, #5 slots. I liked Danks last year. Hopefully another year of seasoning will be just what he needs. We're not talking about the Brian Anderson experiment here. Danks actually showed promise.

 

Put Richar at 2B.

 

Put Owens at CF.

 

1. Fukudome

2. Cabrera

3. Thome

4. Konerko

5. Dye

6. Fields

7. AJ

8. Richar

9. Owens

 

I think that's a great looking line-up.

 

I'm not saying we're amazing, but I'm predicting Division Champs.

 

I don't think it's going overboard. I don't even think the Sox are necessarily a very bad team. It is the fact that we remain in one of the toughest, if not the toughest in baseball. The goal is to win. We are putting together a team that just won't come in last, or at least try not to. This isn't a team that can win and I don't know what you've got in that optimism-pipe, but I would certainly love some of it.

 

I am completely lost in what you saw from Danks in the second half? I can only remember two good games all year. One of them was in KC cuz I was at the game. I think he went 7 or 8 of 1 run ball. He had another one early in the year too similar to that. Otherwise he didn't impress me as expected. his 2nd half I just wanted to puke everytime out.

 

I like the Uribe idea but I think you could get a decent reliever for him.

 

Fokodume I wouldn't mind but again...I think it's a mistake to just keep filling holes with guys. I feel like a small corporation who hires a bunch of people who aren't qualified to fill positions during expansion. The intentions the whole time are to build before a merger or being bought out, then all those people get canned because they were simply pawns. In our case, we won't be so lucky to get bought out or get rid of our guys that easily.

 

Crede we will see what comes out of. 7th inning wise I think we should let Perez have a shot at. I love how he looks. Our bp will be better this year, I thought the Linebrink signing was unnecessary but I am not against it. I have confidence in our bp guys turning it around over anyone else on this team. Don't ask why. *BTW if Linebrink doesnt right the ship and avoid his trends then I think it spells the end for KW (provided he doesnt make several other positive moves)

 

I've always looked at baseball with a simple plan. If you aren't putting together a team to win this year, then dont and build for the future. This team is neither. It's a joke. I am not saying you go Florida Marlins every few years but I am saying it's not a bad idea for an enima once or twice in a decade. Especially with how easy it is to turn into a winner again with the element of FA.

 

Incase it hasn't been noticed but Sox fans/execs are the only people who buy into our prospects. So expecting Owens, Fields, Richar and some of these arms to do anything more then be mediocre is dangerous. If no one else wants your players, isn't that a sign?

Edited December 2, 2007 by Chombi

[spiderman]

I'm trying to be patient, but now I'm seeing Detroit has added Renteria and Cabrera to their offense, and Willis (who I'm not really sold on anymore) to their rotation, and the White Sox have signed their own SS (Uribe), traded an innings eater for another one (the wrong Cabrera), possibly plan on starting an unknown in LF, and paid a lot of money for a relief pitcher (Linebrink).

 

Maybe I'm being a bit negative, but is this really the off-season Plan B after Hunter signed elsewhere ?

 

Looking at this team, Kenny better try Plan C. We still can use another starting pitcher (you're not going anywhere but 4th place with Contreras/Floyd/Denks in your rotation), a dependable OF who can maybe lead off, and probably another hitter for the middle of the lineup.

 

This team is not any better than when the season ended, in fact, I'd argue worse since our rotation is in really bad shape.

 

Detroit has gotten stronger as well, and Cleveland is coming of the playoff appearance.

 

Again, attempting to be patient here, but I'm not sure there really is an immediate fix to this mess.

 

Looks like I just called this team a mess, guess I just answered my own question.

 

 

 

 

[klaus kinski]

Honestly, there is no hope-and we have 19 games against that line up, 19 games against Cleveland, and Williams has no plan to combat this.

[max power]

lol, no hope

[Chombi]

I've been calling for a firesale close to a year. Thome and MB shocked me a little last season. I expected a bigger decline in Thome and was hoping we could deal Buehrle for more then what was apparently his market value. I pressed for it all year but eventually just gave way to what it was assuming changes would have to come in the offseason.

 

Thus far, not so much. I have been open to a firesale the whole time but rumors like Miggy kept me somewhat open to keeping this old bunch together for one last run.

 

The Miggy deal puts a top 5 player in baseball on a top 5 team in the AL, maybe baseball. In our division, where we play him 19 times a season. A team mind you that already was near the playoffs without any overwhelming contribution from the guys dealt to acquire Mr. Cabrera. Add Dontrelle Willis and Edgar Renteria and their potential to be a decent rotation guy/SS and it just sucks.

 

Cleveland is the team that needs to respond to this the most. Division champs with a looming situation over their Cy Young ace. They need more offense and maybe something else in the pen (closer). I expect to see them make some big moves. I wouldn't be shocked if they entered the Nathan sweepstakes and Bay talks. Otherwise, I am unsure what other bat they could pursue to resemble some sort of a response to the Tigers move for Miggy. There isn't any on his level available, or really around for that matter.

 

Cleveland and Detroit are great lookin teams with proven success the last couple years. Minnesota I believe in. Some people don't but I think if Liriano is healthy enough, they won't have such a big fall off. The Royals get better and better and were only 3 games worse then us so you do the math.

 

Firesale! Deal all of them and play with your chips to see what you have. What you don't like or need, you deal for other chips midseason. Maybe a couple veteran young guys who we can lockup. Then next offseason you hit the FA market and look to deal your surplus of young talent for other guys. Someone like a Cabrera.

[spiderman]

I see other teams around the league, including 2 in our own division (KC and Detroit) willing to add on to their payroll, and the White Sox seem like they need to balance one move with another to keep the payroll in check. I understand there's a budget, but I also hear Kenny say that he's going to land a "big fish", and I think that's going to require paying more than what he may feel comfortable doing. We're obviously not going to get much help from our minor league talent so unless Kenny opens the pocket book, and the White Sox are willing to add to their current payroll, which is very respectable, it's not going to be a good season. You can't subtract from one spot to improve at another. That puts you back where you started. If we're serious about contending this season (and I really don't see us doing that with this current team or by adding Aaron Rowand), they are going to have to find a way to make significant acquistions without subtracting what's currently here.

[klaus kinski]

Williams is a big talker-with bus fare in his pocket