Dayan's Career Offense

[JPN366]

Which is exactly what we needed to see from him. Now, we need to start seeing the power numbers.

 

It's about to start feeling like Cuba down here soon enough.

[chw42]

The only thing that concerns me is the power numbers. If he's really a guy who likes to go to the opposite field, more power to him. Guys like that would make the Sox a lot less frustrating to watch. However, I think Dayan has to develop a slugging% somewhere in the .500s to be a successful offensive 3B. Because he obviously doesn't walk much and his OPS is going to suck if his SLG doesn't make up for his bad OBP.

[Balta1701]

The only thing that concerns me is the power numbers. If he's really a guy who likes to go to the opposite field, more power to him. Guys like that would make the Sox a lot less frustrating to watch. However, I think Dayan has to develop a slugging% somewhere in the .500s to be a successful offensive 3B. Because he obviously doesn't walk much and his OPS is going to suck if his SLG doesn't make up for his bad OBP.

With his frame, it's hard to imagine Viciedo not developing major power.

[JPN366]

With his frame, it's hard to imagine Viciedo not developing major power.

 

He's got it. Opposite field no doubter homeruns.

[chisoxfan09]

Viciedo has been adjusting quickly month-by-month

 

April: .221/.232/.286 BB%= 2.4% K%= 24.4%

May: .293/.314/.397 BB%= 2.5% K%= 19.0%

June: .311/.347/.400 BB%= 6.1% K%= 6.1%

 

Hi all, first time poster. I just started a similar thread on another board but a couple of things jump out at me. Is Birmingham´s park known for being home run friendly (I thought Charlotte´s ballpark is where baseballs fly out much like the Cell)? Also as noted his OBP is now slightly above .300 which is good steady and quiet progress. I know the prototype is to jack balls out of the park but with Dayan still trying to develop plate discipline after being brought up in the Cuban system it may take a bit more time as they are taught baseball fundamentals differently (Maybe CUbano can comment on this). But a step in the right direction is the the 2 part formula (Plate discipline/pitch recognition) of which he seems to be progressing as far K´s is concerned and also not swinging at pitches down and away. Taking pitches and pitch recognition should come along. What I asked in the other forum if he does very well from now until the end of July and gets his OBP up to say .340-.350 is that worthy of a promo to AAA? I also think the home runs will come but I personally do not forsee 35-40 per year but more like 15-20 with very good RBI potential. That seems to be his pattern right now at AA (Low HR but decent RBI). Not sure if that also equates into him improving with the RISP statistic. Thoughts?

Edited June 16, 2009 by chisoxfan09

[Chisoxfn]

Hi all, first time poster. I just started a similar thread on another board but a couple of things jump out at me. Is Birmingham´s park known for being home run friendly (I thought Charlotte´s ballpark is where baseballs fly out much like the Cell)? Also as noted his OBP is now slightly above .300 which is good steady and quiet progress. I know the prototype is to jack balls out of the park but with Dayan still trying to develop plate discipline after being brought up in the Cuban system it may take a bit more time as they are taught baseball fundamentals differently (Maybe CUbano can comment on this). But a step in the right direction is the the 2 part formula (Plate discipline/pitch recognition) of which he seems to be progressing as far K´s is concerned and also not swinging at pitches down and away. Taking pitches and pitch recognition should come along. What I asked in the other forum if he does very well from now until the end of July and gets his OBP up to say .340-.350 is that worthy of a promo to AAA? I also think the home runs will come but I personally do not forsee 35-40 per year but more like 15-20 with very good RBI potential. That seems to be his pattern right now at AA (Low HR but decent RBI). Not sure if that also equates into him improving with the RISP statistic. Thoughts?

First off, I want to say welcome aboard. Secondly, when talking about Viciedo we all need to remember that he is still one of the youngest players in AA currently (the Giants have a couple guys that are a bit younger but right after them its pretty much Viciedo in terms of age). Not only was he young but he's coming from a different country and had a definate growing period where he had to not only get used to the American culture but the way the game is played in America. Pitchers pitch different here than they do in Cuba just like they pitch different here than they do in Japan (ie, tendencies, for example, in the Asian leagues pitchers are much more willing to put a guy on base than in the states). Viciedo has gotten much better every month he's been here and is hitting for more power than a lot of the big ML HR hitters today did when they were 20 and in the minors. So while the stats may not show him crushing the ball, we must remember the tools he has and he has tremendous bat speed and more importantly massive power to all fields. The ball jumps off his bat and the reports we've gotten from JPN (who is our resident Barons expert and season ticket holder) is that he has power to all fields but also is concerned with the average and is working on going opposite field.

 

I think we can expect to see Viciedo's power continue to increase throughout the season just like we've seen his average and walk rate increase. I also expect the Sox to promote him to AAA if they believe Viciedo has trouble hitting breaking pitches as you tend to see guys with much more command of the breaking ball in AAA than you do in AA. Talent wise AA is elite, but pitchability is much better in AAA. However, I also believe the Sox will be careful and make sure Viciedo doesn't try to rework his swing to try and just kill the ball in the homer happy Charlotte stadium.

 

Oh and you are correct, Birmingham is one of the biggest pitchers parks in the minor leagues, whereas Charlotte is one of the biggest bandboxes in the minors.

[RockRaines]

Hi all, first time poster. I just started a similar thread on another board but a couple of things jump out at me. Is Birmingham´s park known for being home run friendly (I thought Charlotte´s ballpark is where baseballs fly out much like the Cell)? Also as noted his OBP is now slightly above .300 which is good steady and quiet progress. I know the prototype is to jack balls out of the park but with Dayan still trying to develop plate discipline after being brought up in the Cuban system it may take a bit more time as they are taught baseball fundamentals differently (Maybe CUbano can comment on this). But a step in the right direction is the the 2 part formula (Plate discipline/pitch recognition) of which he seems to be progressing as far K´s is concerned and also not swinging at pitches down and away. Taking pitches and pitch recognition should come along. What I asked in the other forum if he does very well from now until the end of July and gets his OBP up to say .340-.350 is that worthy of a promo to AAA? I also think the home runs will come but I personally do not forsee 35-40 per year but more like 15-20 with very good RBI potential. That seems to be his pattern right now at AA (Low HR but decent RBI). Not sure if that also equates into him improving with the RISP statistic. Thoughts?

Great post and welcome!!!!

 

I actually think it would be more benficial for Dayan to start again in AA next year and see how he has progressed. I also think he should get a cup of coffee this fall in the majors to take a look at what he is up against. He is probably another 2 years away from the majors, but looks VERY on track.

[Balta1701]

I actually think it would be more benficial for Dayan to start again in AA next year and see how he has progressed. I also think he should get a cup of coffee this fall in the majors to take a look at what he is up against. He is probably another 2 years away from the majors, but looks VERY on track.

If Alexei's weaknesses/strengths are any indication, starting next year in AAA is going to be a bigger benefit to big V than starting AA again next year given the style of pitches he's likely to see and the type of ballpark he'd be playing in.

[chisoxfan09]

If Alexei's weaknesses/strengths are any indication, starting next year in AAA is going to be a bigger benefit to big V than starting AA again next year given the style of pitches he's likely to see and the type of ballpark he'd be playing in.

 

Thanx all for the nice welcome, I appreciate and watch the Sox from overseas in Spain. Have to stay up late to watch the night games on MLB.COM but hey the Internet is a neat medium. Back to DV, another thought I had which is really the opposite of the point of this thread and which is something that is being hotly debated is whether or not his defense will be cause for concern. Problem with MILB.COm is that they do not put up the robust fielding stats as opposed to hitting/pitching. If we project going forward that DV´s errors (15 to date) decrease as he also acclimate´s to the US style of fielding fundamentals does it really mean he will improve significantly or marginally? I mean I would argue for logic´s sake that he could actually have the most tremendous value to be groomed as the future DH and take Thome´s spot in 2011. Psychologically this is bound to take half of the pressure off him with regards to improving to MLB standards defensively. I just don´t think he is destined to be a Gold Glover at 3rd. We already have a couple of DH possibilities in AA (Allen and Flowers if his kness give out) so I don´t know. But to have just DV concentrate on his hitting and excel and grow at that is the purest way to him being a true stud.

[dasox24]

Thanx all for the nice welcome, I appreciate and watch the Sox from overseas in Spain. Have to stay up late to watch the night games on MLB.COM but hey the Internet is a neat medium. Back to DV, another thought I had which is really the opposite of the point of this thread and which is something that is being hotly debated is whether or not his defense will be cause for concern. Problem with MILB.COm is that they do not put up the robust fielding stats as opposed to hitting/pitching. If we project going forward that DV´s errors (15 to date) decrease as he also acclimate´s to the US style of fielding fundamentals does it really mean he will improve significantly or marginally? I mean I would argue for logic´s sake that he could actually have the most tremendous value to be groomed as the future DH and take Thome´s spot in 2011. Psychologically this is bound to take half of the pressure off him with regards to improving to MLB standards defensively. I just don´t think he is destined to be a Gold Glover at 3rd. We already have a couple of DH possibilities in AA (Allen and Flowers if his kness give out) so I don´t know. But to have just DV concentrate on his hitting and excel and grow at that is the purest way to him being a true stud.

Another international poster - very cool... You seem like you could add a lot to the minor league discussions we have on this board, so I hope you post more often.

[Balta1701]

Thanx all for the nice welcome, I appreciate and watch the Sox from overseas in Spain. Have to stay up late to watch the night games on MLB.COM but hey the Internet is a neat medium. Back to DV, another thought I had which is really the opposite of the point of this thread and which is something that is being hotly debated is whether or not his defense will be cause for concern. Problem with MILB.COm is that they do not put up the robust fielding stats as opposed to hitting/pitching. If we project going forward that DV´s errors (15 to date) decrease as he also acclimate´s to the US style of fielding fundamentals does it really mean he will improve significantly or marginally? I mean I would argue for logic´s sake that he could actually have the most tremendous value to be groomed as the future DH and take Thome´s spot in 2011. Psychologically this is bound to take half of the pressure off him with regards to improving to MLB standards defensively. I just don´t think he is destined to be a Gold Glover at 3rd. We already have a couple of DH possibilities in AA (Allen and Flowers if his kness give out) so I don´t know. But to have just DV concentrate on his hitting and excel and grow at that is the purest way to him being a true stud.

Frankly, I think Viciedo's final position is going to wind up being determined more by other people than by what he does. Bad 3b can stick if they have a ridiculous bat there...which hopefully he will...but the question is going to be the rest of our IF/OF.

 

Let's hypothetically say that Getzy winds up being a .290ish, 10HRish hitter with good speed from the LH side of the plate with solid defense. Certainly within reason for him. You don't exactly get a ton if you trade a guy like that, but you also like having guys like that in your lineup, esp. if they can hit 1 or 2. Let's hypothetically say Alexei recovers from his crappy start to this season and can be a .300 hitter from the RH side. And let's say that Beckham does what he should do. Hell, then maybe even throw in Fields if he can get his swing ironed out. There's at least 4 guys who can also play IF positions, and the only one who probably won't be significantly better than Viciedo with the glove is Fields; and he might wind up at 1b anyway. And hell, throw in Allen there.

 

If these guys in the IF can develop in to good solid contributors with 1-2 all stars in Becks and Lexs, and in the OF we can put together some combination of D2: the mighty Danks and Quentin...that leaves 2 spots open, and OF spot and a DH spot. And frankly, at Viciedo's age he ought to be able to handle a corner OF spot.

 

There's no real obvious reason to stick him at DH if we can find a position on the field he's adequate at; it's a lot easier and cheaper to sign a 30 some year old DH than it is to sign a LF/RF/3b who can put up the kind of numbers we hope Viciedo can produce. If he can stick at a position you have to keep him there. The exact position may just depend on who else pans out.

[chisoxfan09]

That is pretty true what you say Balta. A mediocre fielding positional player of the like Vicedo can turn into and can rake has infinitely more value that someone like Betemit who could not hit or field to save his life. I am pretty excited with the chemistry the AA Barons have developed and to imagine a good 20/30% of that team could conceiveaby make it´s way up to the bigs is well "California Dreamin" isn´t it? But on a serious note DV is also developing or getting introduced to a concept that may have escaped him earlier on in his teens which is to work hard or to have a good work ethic. I think he is really starting to see the system of reward for hard work under the Sox´s farm system. I think the next 6 weeks until the end of July should give us a good snapshot of what kind of numbers we can expect from him and whether it will merit the jump to AAA. Like I said earlier I don´t think he has enough US baseball fundamentals experience just yet to get a Sep callup but that depends on how well he continues to do. Heck he may go into a slump of the kind we saw in April. I also speak fluent Spanish so I will scour the Internet and assist Cubano when I can to find nuggets about up and coming Latino players. More to follow I am sure.

[SoxAce]

Thanx all for the nice welcome, I appreciate and watch the Sox from overseas in Spain.

 

Oh man, you'll fit right in here brother. We got quite a few posters who are also overseas here.

[chisoxfan09]

Yeah, amen to that. Grew up on the South Side near the Indiana border and watched the Sox through the Bill Melton/Harold Baines years. Been overseas now for almost 20 years. Kinda rekinled the passion for baseball 2 years ago. Do a yearly trip to the US to see the folks in Cicero on the west side. I kinda scope through the daily boxscores of the Baron´s games trying to get a feel for what àtterns are emerging and I am confident Viciedo is starting to pick it up. The lower K rate is a good indication that he is laying off but still a lot of work to do.

[Cubano]

Palmiero?

 

 

Born in Cuba, but an USA baseball product.

[Cubano]

I think the Sox have not tried Viciedo at other positions in order to protect him. I think they want him to concentrate at hitting and do not want him to worry about any other position but 3B.

[Cubano]

Viciedo has gotten much better every month he's been here and is hitting for more power than a lot of the big ML HR hitters today did when they were 20 and in the minors. So while the stats may not show him crushing the ball, we must remember the tools he has and he has tremendous bat speed and more importantly massive power to all fields.

 

Viciedo was suceptible to outside breaking pitches in Cuba too. I have a couple of videos about him. He should learn to layoff from those pitches.

 

 

Can you name some of these players you are refrring to on this post?

 

Thanks,

[Chisoxfn]

Viciedo was suceptible to outside breaking pitches in Cuba too. I have a couple of videos about him. He should learn to layoff from those pitches.

 

 

Can you name some of these players you are refrring to on this post?

 

Thanks,

The giants have Anderson or Alderson and than Baumgauter. I'm sure I botched the spelling.

[Adele_H]

Viciedo seems to have the hand-quickness and strength to be a good ML'er. His propensity to go oppo at a relatively young age is also a plus. As others mentioned, pitch selection, pitch selection pitch selection, that will decide his fate --- he will never be Frank Thomas, but he can't be Willie Mo Pena or Eric Munson, either.

 

Defensively Since 3B has always seemed destined for Beckham (his lateral quickness and agility are not suited for either SS or 2B where you want guys like Pokey Reese or young Furcal), Viciedo looks like a future DH.

 

 

[ThunderBolt]

Defensively Since 3B has always seemed destined for Beckham (his lateral quickness and agility are not suited for either SS or 2B where you want guys like Pokey Reese or young Furcal), Viciedo looks like a future DH.

Pokey Reese? Really? Reese was a balls out defender, but his limited offensive potential is what killed his career. Beckham's offensive abilities make him a plus-plus option at 2b and SS. His defensive ability as demonstrated by his success at 3b is greatly helped by great reads on balls, and the ranger to go left and right. He’ll be just fine in the middle infield.

[Bubba Philips]

Great post and welcome!!!!

 

I actually think it would be more benficial for Dayan to start again in AA next year and see how he has progressed. I also think he should get a cup of coffee this fall in the majors to take a look at what he is up against. He is probably another 2 years away from the majors, but looks VERY on track.

I think the sox orgainzation is encouraged by his progress but I think two years away is not what management has in mind. Just conjecture on my part but I believe Viciedo will get little rest this fall and winter because I believe he will be playing in the Arizona fall league and maybe some winter leagues. and maybe more exposure in spring training. I have no idea how he'll fare in Spring training but if he doesn't make it there I believe he'll be on the fast track to the majors. We gave Dayan a 4 year contract for good money I just think that they want him to produce on the mlb lever quicker.

[frankiethefixer]

In 4 years I'd love to see a line-up of

 

RF- Danks

3B- Beckman

LF- Quentin

1B- Allen

DH- Viciedo

SS- Ramirez

C- Flowers

2B- Getz

Cf- Mitchell

 

I know it's highly unlikely all the prospects reach their potential but if they do we're set up for a great decade of baseball.

[GoodAsGould]

In 4 years I'd love to see a line-up of

 

RF- Danks

3B- Beckman

LF- Quentin

1B- Allen

DH- Viciedo

SS- Ramirez

C- Flowers

2B- Getz

Cf- Mitchell

 

I know it's highly unlikely all the prospects reach their potential but if they do we're set up for a great decade of baseball.

 

I think Getz is a better utility man than he is an everyday player, and obviously not all those guys are going to pan out, but that would be something special.

[Ozzie Ball]

In 4 years I'd love to see a line-up of

 

RF- Danks

3B- Beckman

LF- Quentin

1B- Allen

DH- Viciedo

SS- Ramirez

C- Flowers

2B- Getz

Cf- Mitchell

 

I know it's highly unlikely all the prospects reach their potential but if they do we're set up for a great decade of baseball.

I don't like Beckham at 3rd longterm, if we want him to be a star he needs to be a middle infielder, his bat just isn't good enough for him to be a great player at a CI spot.

[Kyyle23]

In 4 years I'd love to see a line-up of

 

RF- Danks

3B- Beckman

LF- Quentin

1B- Allen

DH- Viciedo

SS- Ramirez

C- Flowers

2B- Getz

Cf- Mitchell

 

I know it's highly unlikely all the prospects reach their potential but if they do we're set up for a great decade of baseball.

 

 

Who is this Beckman fellow