Official Buyer or Seller Thread

[beck72]

Why would we trade Alexei?

A number of factors would have to be present.

 

If the sox thought his inability to hit a breaking ball was not easily correctable, if they thought his mental errors were more the norm than the exception, if they viewed Beckham as a better long term fit at SS [even factoring in defense], if they thought the package was right [for a top SP prospect/ young arm that has some major league experience], it wouldn't be that far fetched.

[Adele_H]

I think he and Beckham will switch positions next year.

 

It would make no sense to do so. While his switch back to SS hasn't been as smooth as some liked, Ramirez has more range, a stronger arm AND softer hands than Beckham. Beckham projects as a future 3B anyway.

 

Both Ozzie and Brian Anderson expressed how good Ramirez looks at SS during practice in ST. I think those 2 know more about defense than any one of us.

 

[Adele_H]

One of the factors I haven't seen discussed yet is the possibility that the young guys who have struggled during the first half of the season might play better in the second half.

 

I wouldn't be at all surprised if one or more of Getz, Beckham, and Anderson step up and play much better as the result of getting regular playing time and experience.

 

(I left Fields out because I think he would need regular playing time to get a hitting rhythm going and I don't see him getting enough at-bats going forward to allow that to happen.)

 

I am a big believer in both Beckham and Getz having strong 2nd halves. Getz looked real bad for couple of weeks after coming back from broken finger, but the guy is a major leaguer. (would have been nice if he didn't have his worst fielding day agasinst the Cubs, but I digress

 

Anderson not so sure about. Brian's pitch-recognition just hasn't improved in almost 4 years in the majors. His swing is still long/loopy for long stretches of time. I want him starting over Wise or Swisher types, but his future beyond Danks is unclear.

 

Fields? Football reflexes. See: Borchard, Owens.

[Adele_H]

That's what Stoney and Hawk were alluding to in regards to Alexei. Not physical errors but mental errors.

 

But, if Alexei boosted his numbers a bit by the deadline, the Red sox would have to see him as an offensive and defensive upgrade over the Lowrie, Green, Lugo trio. They were talking about getting Jack Wilson for crying out loud.

 

Dotel and Contreras I can understand.... but we're talking dumping Ramirez at the deadline now? Give me a break.

 

Before this season, I thought Alexei had the talent to contend for AL MVP in the next 5 years [as he learned the pithers and American way of life]. Rollins, Pedroia-style.

 

He's still one of my favorite players, but it's clear that Cuban Missile didn't put in the time in the off-season -- both getting bigger/stronger and in terms of studying the game. If anything, he looks smaller than last year and without much of a plan at the plate. His slow starts aren't coincidence, IMO.

 

Hopefully the Cubs series represent a turning point.

 

 

[beck72]

Dotel and Contreras I can understand.... but we're talking dumping Ramirez at the deadline now? Give me a break.

 

Before this season, I thought Alexei had the talent to contend for AL MVP in the next 5 years [as he learned the pithers and American way of life]. Rollins, Pedroia-style.

 

He's still one of my favorite players, but it's clear that Cuban Missile didn't put in the time in the off-season -- both getting bigger/stronger and in terms of studying the game. If anything, he looks smaller than last year and without much of a plan at the plate. His slow starts aren't coincidence, IMO.

 

Hopefully the Cubs series represent a turning point.

I never said "dump" him. But if the price was right, in terms of talent [such as Bucholz or Bowden +], I think the sox would look into it.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

I never said "dump" him. But if the price was right, in terms of talent [such as Bucholz or Bowden +], I think the sox would look into it.

I'd LMAO if the Red Sox offered me Bowden for Alexei. I wouldn't hang up the phone either; I'd just sit there laughing until the Red Sox hung up on their end. However if they offered Buchholz I'd have to think very hard about it, but I'd end up asking for more. Alexei has proven himself in the Majors. Buchholz hasn't. That would be a type of deal that you could very much regret making or not making.

 

That said, the Red Sox would have to be smoking crack to trade Clay. If I were them I'd trade almost everyone else in the organization before I traded that kid. I imagine getting the Red Sox to trade Buchholz would be like getting the Sox to trade Beckham. It's just not happening, especially in these economic times where elite prospects are worth twice what they were 3-4 years ago.

Edited June 20, 2009 by Kenny Hates Prospects

[fathom]

With Jose losing his forkball tonight, I would again pray that we can trade Jose while he still has some value. And after watching Looper and Parra pitch recently, the Brewers would love to add Jose.

[SoxAce]

I'd LMAO if the Red Sox offered me Bowden for Alexei. I wouldn't hang up the phone either; I'd just sit there laughing until the Red Sox hung up on their end. However if they offered Buchholz I'd have to think very hard about it, but I'd end up asking for more. Alexei has proven himself in the Majors. Buchholz hasn't. That would be a type of deal that you could very much regret making or not making.

 

And then I would have to LMFAO at you, either because you don't know how good Bowden actually is, or you have no idea on evaluating spects, because I'd take Bowden and run like hell if the Sawks were offering him for Alexei even with Alexei's low cash contract. Maybe it's because of his excellent control and movement. Maybe it's because my cousin played against him in high school in Aurora when he was highly touted and raved about him. I dont know. But Bowden is a stud and a very very good pitching prospect.

 

Now Buchholz, and I saw your second paragraph.. hell f***ing yes, and I'd be LMAO at the Red Sox and Theo. That kid has 0 to prove in AAA anymore, and it's a shame his ass is wasted down there. His stuff is simply filthy, and just needs patience to learn it up here. Didn't he pitch a no-hitter last year? I know Lester did also, thought Buchholz did it before him.

 

And whoever had the numbers on their sig comparing Alexei to Swisher from the "core" argument was genius BTW.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

And then I would have to LMFAO at you, either because you don't know how good Bowden actually is, or you have no idea on evaluating spects, because I'd take Bowden and run like hell if the Sawks were offering him for Alexei even with Alexei's low cash contract. Maybe it's because of his excellent control and movement. Maybe it's because my cousin played against him in high school in Aurora when he was highly touted and raved about him. I dont know. But Bowden is a stud and a very very good pitching prospect.

 

Now Buchholz, and I saw your second paragraph.. hell f***ing yes, and I'd be LMAO at the Red Sox and Theo. That kid has 0 to prove in AAA anymore, and it's a shame his ass is wasted down there. His stuff is simply filthy, and just needs patience to learn it up here. Didn't he pitch a no-hitter last year? I know Lester did also, thought Buchholz did it before him.

 

And whoever had the numbers on their sig comparing Alexei to Swisher from the "core" argument was genius BTW.

Wow, step away from Bowden's nutsac already. Yes, he's a very good pitching prospect, but I don't think he's an ace. And I don't think you trade a player like Alexei who is already very good and very cheap for a long time at a premium position without getting a can't miss ace-level pitcher in return if you're going to trade him for a prospect. It doesn't matter how much you love him, he's nowhere near Buchholz.

 

I don't claim to be some expert on evaluating players, but your comment regarding Alexei being comparable to Swisher is one of the dumbest things I have ever read on this board, so clearly you're no expert either. Are you serious? Really? A young SS who has the ability to both win a GG and lead the league offensively from the position, and who can also run, is in some way comparable to a mediocre offensive 1B/corner OF? How many SS in the American League right now would you trade straight up for Alexei? By contrast, how many 1B/corner OF are there who are a s*** ton better than Nick Swisher? The only SS in this league I can think of who I might trade Alexei for is Elvis Andrus in Texas, and he's still adjusting to MLB pitching as he's only 20 years old.

 

I could definitely consider dealing Alexei for a guy like Buchholz because he is all kinds of awesome. I could see that one both ways, why you would and why you wouldn't. But Bowden is not anywhere near the same category, and if Kenny traded Alexei for him he should be taken out back and beaten with a shovel.

[greg775]

With Jose losing his forkball tonight, I would again pray that we can trade Jose while he still has some value. And after watching Looper and Parra pitch recently, the Brewers would love to add Jose.

 

I still wonder what Jose would bring. The guy is probably 10 years older than he's listed and when he's bad, he's so bad. If I was a team's GM, I would not be a Jose believer just yet except to give up some minor league scrap for him ... though his outings since coming back up have so far been tremendous.

[nickofypres]

someone mentioned a corner outfielder via free agency in the off season, If we can't get Holiday, I would suggest Xavier Nady but only if he's inspected and approved to be a %100 recovery from his surgery. I think he'll come cheaper than Holiday, he's only going to be 30 in 2010 and in the past two seasons (not including 2009) he's was batting .293 split between Pittsburgh and New York. Plus he can play all three outfield positions well. I think if we can ink him for a 1 year contract, that could suffice.

Edited June 20, 2009 by whitesox901

[SoxAce]

I don't claim to be some expert on evaluating players, but your comment regarding Alexei being comparable to Swisher is one of the dumbest things I have ever read on this board, so clearly you're no expert either. Are you serious? Really? A young SS who has the ability to both win a GG and lead the league offensively from the position, and who can also run, is in some way comparable to a mediocre offensive 1B/corner OF? How many SS in the American League right now would you trade straight up for Alexei? By contrast, how many 1B/corner OF are there who are a s*** ton better than Nick Swisher? The only SS in this league I can think of who I might trade Alexei for is Elvis Andrus in Texas, and he's still adjusting to MLB pitching as he's only 20 years old.

 

Ah one of the half-full glass posters I see. Now tell me... where in my post do I compare them? I just said there was a poster here who had them both in his sig and compared their numbers saying one was the "core" I never compared them as players so if you got a problem with that, blame the guy who has both in their sig comparing their numbers from last year which were eeriely similar. BTW if 28 is consider young baseball wise, then you have alot to learn about youth in this game man. He's in his prime, and is still adjusting, but he isn't a spring chicken. I don't even have to mention his defense has not been that great this season at SS (even by EYES) and his zone rating even at 2B last year wasn't good either, but I'm sure you will ignore that. I guarantee you if a pitcher like Bowden (or +) is offered for Alexei, KW jumps on it Not saying Swisher is that great either, but how your comparing him to Alexei with that post, Swisher is severely underated.

[nickofypres]

another thing is we need speed, and guys who can bunt, run movers over ect. We all know we need 3-6 to be power hitters when you play 81 games at USCF. Do we have guys in the minors who can do this? If we could get a legit leadoff hitter for 2010 (as I doubt Scott Pods will hold up, or even make the 2010 roster). I would really like to see Kenny get Figgins, you can put him at third if Viciedo is not ready (he's batting .280ish with 5 HR in AA) or CF is Dayan is ready:

 

So, with the addition of Figgins, we would still need a LF or RF pending on where TCQ goes based on how hit foot heals, I'm going to put him at RF for now just for the heck of it. In an earler post, I suggest Xavier Nady cheap, so lets say we get these two guys

 

LINE UP A: Viciedo and Figgins

CF Figgins

SS Ramirez

RF Quentin

DH Dye

1B Konerko

2B Beckham

C Pierzynksi

LF Nady

3B Viciedo

 

LINE UP B: Just Figgz

3B Figgins

SS Ramirez

RF Quentin

DH Dye

1B Konerko

2B Beckham

C Pierzynksi

LF Nady

CF Anderson/Danks/Shelby

 

or

 

LINE UP C: Realistic

1B Paul Konerko

2B Gordon Beckham

3B Dayan Viciedo

SS Alexei Ramirez

LF Anderson/Shelby/Danks

CF Anderson/Shelby/Danks

RF Quentin

C Pierzynksi

DH Dye

 

I like A a lot more, you got speed at the top, power at 3-4-5, good hitting at 6 (if Beckham lives up to hype) 7 and 8. Plus at 9 Dayan can hit at the bottom with less pressure, but we all know C is probably what is going to happen. I didn't even bother putting that into a line-up I think it would form, I would think 7-9 would be too weak if you had 2 or 3 rookie batting their (pending on if Anderson started)

 

[beck72]

I'd LMAO if the Red Sox offered me Bowden for Alexei. I wouldn't hang up the phone either; I'd just sit there laughing until the Red Sox hung up on their end. However if they offered Buchholz I'd have to think very hard about it, but I'd end up asking for more. Alexei has proven himself in the Majors. Buchholz hasn't. That would be a type of deal that you could very much regret making or not making.

 

That said, the Red Sox would have to be smoking crack to trade Clay. If I were them I'd trade almost everyone else in the organization before I traded that kid. I imagine getting the Red Sox to trade Buchholz would be like getting the Sox to trade Beckham. It's just not happening, especially in these economic times where elite prospects are worth twice what they were 3-4 years ago.

From all accounts, Bowden is right up there with Buchholz. The Red sox can't have both sitting in AAA-their value diminishes by the day and they can't keep throwing them out there and take the risk someone gets hurt. Actually, I could see Clay being more available than Bowden. Despite his no-hitter, he's struggled in the bigs with 18 big league starts and has posted a 5.56 ERA. And he's made comments recently about being in AAA, that haven't endeared him to the front office or fans.

 

Bowden is 2 years younger. Granted he's unproven in the bigs. But his numbers in the minors have been outstanding, as well as his makeup, attitude, etc.

 

I like Alexei. But he's not an MVP candidate, like someone alluded to. The sox will probably build their team around Gordon and Carlos. Making him comfortable in the field, at the plate, in the clubhouse, etc, is in the sox best interests. The kid has taken one for the team, in playing 3b where he had never played before. But starting 2010, he may be at SS.

 

People would then say, put Alexei at 2b and trade Getz. But Alexei would have greater trade value then Getz. Other teams would give up more talent for a SS. Yet for the Sox, Getz might be a better fit to pair with Gordon [Getz' OBP skills-as shown in the minors and in the bigs so far-though he has room for improement;, lefty bat, ability to hit the breaking ball, natural glove for 2b, etc. If Alexei can't improve on his 2008 numbers, and improve on his 2009 decision making, IMO, the sox should look into moving him as a way to build a championship type team.

 

How these guys do in 2009 will give the sox information and answers going forward. Can Alexei improve upon his 2008 or will he take a step backward? What do Getz and Gordon look like at the end of the year? Can the sox count on them as regular everyday players for 2010?

 

The sox do a great job evaluating their own players-both in the bigs and in the minors. I trust them to move guys around, via trade etc. to make a good fit.

 

 

 

 

[DBAHO]

With Jose losing his forkball tonight, I would again pray that we can trade Jose while he still has some value. And after watching Looper and Parra pitch recently, the Brewers would love to add Jose.

And if Jose comes out and pitches like he did in the 2 games before that would you want to keep him then?

[fathom]

And if Jose comes out and pitches like he did in the 2 games before that would you want to keep him then?

 

Absolutely not...even before last night, I said he should have been traded last Saturday. It's not like he's all of a sudden throwing 96 mph again. This will probably come across as bashing Jose, but it's really not meant to...but his first two games back were great conditions. The Tigers game was the 2nd game of a DH with the Tigers going through the motions, and the other game against the Brewers was a game where they couldn't see anything due to the shadows. He's throwing better than he did prior to going down to AAA (obviously), but last night is probably what you can expect.

[DBAHO]

I would take 3ER from Jose for 6IP for every start for the rest of the season if he was able to do that.

 

The issue is, while the Sox still have a chance of winning the AL Central, Contreras is probably not going to get dealt if he keeps pitching well, unless KW gets wowed by an offer, and I don't think teams are going to give up a lot for an aging pitcher like Jose.

 

I think we're probably stuck with him, unless KW's willing to cut his losses.

[Marty34]

This team needs to find its engine (3-6 hitters) for the next 4-5 years as quickly as possible.

 

Best Case By 2011 (in-house options):

 

3. Beckham 3B

4. Quentin LF

5. Allen 1B

6. Flowers C

 

Probably too much to ask for, but if that would work out they'd have a ton of dough to spend on the best possible DH and they have a history of spending for a DH. Probably because they love getting what they pay for and there are fewer positions more predictable than DH.

[beck72]

Absolutely not...even before last night, I said he should have been traded last Saturday. It's not like he's all of a sudden throwing 96 mph again. This will probably come across as bashing Jose, but it's really not meant to...but his first two games back were great conditions. The Tigers game was the 2nd game of a DH with the Tigers going through the motions, and the other game against the Brewers was a game where they couldn't see anything due to the shadows. He's throwing better than he did prior to going down to AAA (obviously), but last night is probably what you can expect.

It is what it is-Jose dominated two 1st place teams. That said, few teams are going to be able to pick up Jose and the money owed him. Unless the sox pick up some salary [then, they could get a decent prospect or two], which is doubtful as they haven't in the past, Jose is probably more valuable to the sox than in trade value. Though they probably should send some salary with Jose as they won't offer him arb. Better to get something for him rather than let him leave without getting any return value

 

This all depends on if the sox are still in it come the deadline. If Carlos is gone for the year, and PK and Dye are slow to recover, then the sox could look into moving Jose. If the sox are still in it, KW would be hard pressed to say trading Jose would help the sox make the playoffs.

Edited June 20, 2009 by beck72

[beck72]

This team needs to find its engine (3-6 hitters) for the next 4-5 years as quickly as possible.

 

Best Case By 2011 (in-house options):

 

3. Beckham 3B

4. Quentin LF

5. Allen 1B

6. Flowers C

 

Probably too much to ask for, but if that would work out they'd have a ton of dough to spend on the best possible DH and they have a history of spending for a DH. Probably because they love getting what they pay for and there are fewer positions more predictable than DH.

I agree those four look like the sox middle hitters. Though I disagree on spending big money on a DH. The sox have potential DH's in Flowers, Viciedo, and Allen.

 

Better to spend big money on a leadoff hitter/ ace starting pitcher. That way, it eases the pressure on the young players and allows the sox to have them hit low in the order.

[GreatScott82]

If Jose is traded July 31st, how much money is left on the deal? 3 million? 4 million?

With 2 months left in the season Contreras will be owed 3.33 million. I could see us taking a million of that in we'd get a couple of decent prospects back in return.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

From all accounts, Bowden is right up there with Buchholz. The Red sox can't have both sitting in AAA-their value diminishes by the day and they can't keep throwing them out there and take the risk someone gets hurt. Actually, I could see Clay being more available than Bowden. Despite his no-hitter, he's struggled in the bigs with 18 big league starts and has posted a 5.56 ERA. And he's made comments recently about being in AAA, that haven't endeared him to the front office or fans.

 

Bowden is 2 years younger. Granted he's unproven in the bigs. But his numbers in the minors have been outstanding, as well as his makeup, attitude, etc.

 

I like Alexei. But he's not an MVP candidate, like someone alluded to. The sox will probably build their team around Gordon and Carlos. Making him comfortable in the field, at the plate, in the clubhouse, etc, is in the sox best interests. The kid has taken one for the team, in playing 3b where he had never played before. But starting 2010, he may be at SS.

 

People would then say, put Alexei at 2b and trade Getz. But Alexei would have greater trade value then Getz. Other teams would give up more talent for a SS. Yet for the Sox, Getz might be a better fit to pair with Gordon [Getz' OBP skills-as shown in the minors and in the bigs so far-though he has room for improement;, lefty bat, ability to hit the breaking ball, natural glove for 2b, etc. If Alexei can't improve on his 2008 numbers, and improve on his 2009 decision making, IMO, the sox should look into moving him as a way to build a championship type team.

 

How these guys do in 2009 will give the sox information and answers going forward. Can Alexei improve upon his 2008 or will he take a step backward? What do Getz and Gordon look like at the end of the year? Can the sox count on them as regular everyday players for 2010?

 

The sox do a great job evaluating their own players-both in the bigs and in the minors. I trust them to move guys around, via trade etc. to make a good fit.

Buchholz has much better stuff and was rated the 4th best prospect in all of baseball by BA in 2008, ahead of Kershaw, Bailey, Price, McGee, Davis, etc. Bowden is good, but he's not Buccholz. Buchholz isn't even worth talking about anyway, he's almost certainly untouchable. Maybe he'd get moved if the Marlins offered Hanley or the Cards offered Pujols or something, but since that is not happening I doubt he's going anywhere. As for his comments that upset people, whoever got upset by his comments should go f*** themselves. You don't hold on to Brad Penny to block a prospect like Clay. I guarantee there are a lot of Red Sox fans who follow the farm and think what the Red Sox are doing is stupid.

 

Why would the Sox move Alexei to 2B and put Beckham at SS? Hasn't Beckham's range at SS always been questioned?

 

No, Alexei is not ever going to win an MVP but I have no idea why that means he should be traded for a guy like Bowden. Even the Red Sox fans at soxprospects.com still see Bowden as a #3. He does not have Buchholz's type of dominating ace-like stuff. He has 3 good pitches and good control, and he should have a big league career.

 

I think you guys are drastically underrating Alexei's ability by saying things like Kenny would jump at the chance to trade him for a young unproven future #3 starter. I bet he wouldn't, and when he doesn't, you'll still think he would. Buchholz I could see, and the more I think about it, the more I'd do that deal. But it's not happening anyway. But Bowden? Alexei is 27. Someone else said that is not young. He has his Age 28-33 seasons where he should definitely be in his prime. So how is that not young? He's got this year plus 6 more before you start to looking for him to slow down at 34.

 

Just look at what Alexei has been able to do so far. In other years he'd have been ROY but he ended up in the class with Longoria. Coming from Cuba, this is only his second year of professional baseball. He had never seen the quality of competition in American baseball and yet he still tore the league up. He struggled mightily to being the season and has gotten himself back on track the last two months. He's never had to deal with the quality of competition or the lucrative scouting business that is here in America. People who talk about his age are f***ing clueless. He's a guy who has a learning curve and age has nothing to do with it. He's not going to be on crutches soon or anything. To think that because he's this old now means he won't be much better in the future is f***ing retarded. He's adjusting to American baseball. If he maybe didn't come from a communist s***hole he could have gotten here a long time ago and went through the process there. For a guy in his second year of pro baseball I am very impressed with him.

 

Alexei hit for average in May, now his power is starting to come back in June. Look at the positives too. In not even half the amount of PA he has already equaled his walk total from last year while maintaining his K rate. He's on pace to more than double the amount of walks he takes, and if he hits .290 again this year by the time it is all over, his OBP should be a lot closer to .350 than the .317 he put up last year. He's got great batspeed and range and an arm in the field. Good speed on the bases although he's never going to steal a whole lot bags. Yes he makes mental mistakes and can be frustrating to watch when he's struggling at the plate, but he can make adjustments quickly and he's got some real pop. This is not a video game and good players do f*** up sometimes, especially those who are still learning. Alexei is not the second coming of Juan Uribe. He is a very good player at a premium position and the idea that he's not an integral part of our future and is in some way easily expendable for an unproven future #3 starter is ludicrous. I don't think you guys appreciate just how good Alexei is.

 

BTW Getz doesn't exactly have OBP skills. He can take walks, but he makes a ton of contact while striking out very little, just like Alexei. Given Alexei's improved plate discipline it will not be surprising to see Alexei get on at a higher clip than Getz. I like Getz, but Alexei is far and away the better player and hitter. Getz's presence is in no way a reason to deal Alexei. I'd bet anything that our IF in the future is X-Alexei-Beckham-Y. X hopefully is Viciedo with Allen being Y, but up the middle I'm almost positive it is going to be Alexei and Gordon, with Alexei staying at SS.

[greg775]

I still say some of you are in a dream world regarding Jose. He's not going to bring anything decent in return. I give him credit for his performance of late. But No GM is going to give up anything but crap for him. At this point, I wouldn't mind a trade or two but Jose isn't going to bring us squat.

Edited June 20, 2009 by greg775

[fathom]

I still say some of you are in a dream world regarding Jose. He's not going to bring anything decent in return. I give him credit for his performance of late. But No GM is going to give up anything but crap for him. At this point, I wouldn't mind a trade or two but Jose isn't going to bring us squat.

 

Ok greg, which pitchers are available that anyone would actually want? Bedard's going nowhere with his injury issues. Marquis is going nowhere with the recent success of the Rockies. I'm all for freeing up a few extra million while giving Poreda the chance to start some games after the ASB.

[GreatScott82]

Ok greg, which pitchers are available that anyone would actually want? Bedard's going nowhere with his injury issues. Marquis is going nowhere with the recent success of the Rockies. I'm all for freeing up a few extra million while giving Poreda the chance to start some games after the ASB.

I really hope Poreda starts a few games this year. We have to see what have with these guys.