Tigers Sign Damon - 1 yr, 8 mil; NTC

[jhonnydanks]

if damon changed the spelling to jhonny i would have considered liking him on this team

[ptatc]

Completing a major league roster isn't like choosing a team template in a video game. You should try to put the best players you can at each position, and Damon/Thome/Matsui/Guerrero/Johnson would have been a huge upgrade over the vortex of suck that is Jones/Kotsay.

 

Screw the video game crap KW is working in the real world with a real budget. You cannot feasibly put the best players at each position. If you do this you will be just average with average players at each position. When you must adhere to a budget you need to pick and choose where to spend your money. KW chose to spend his money on the pitching. The group of players you mention except for Damon are DHs. The Sox want to go with pitching and defense because that is where they spent their money to be very good in one aspect of the game. THey do not want more one dimensional DH players. They are not focusing on offensive only players.

 

 

Edited February 20, 2010 by ptatc

[RockRaines]

Completing a major league roster isn't like choosing a team template in a video game. You should try to put the best players you can at each position, and Damon/Thome/Matsui/Guerrero/Johnson would have been a huge upgrade over the vortex of suck that is Jones/Kotsay.

 

They went after Matsui and got outbid. Thome wont play 80- games this year.

[chunk23]

The DH is for offensive only players. That's the whole point. A dh has no defensive value.

[fathom]

The DH is for offensive only players. That's the whole point. A dh has no defensive value.

 

Yep, versatility on the bench really isn't that important (especially when you have someone like Vizquel who can play 3 positions). As it stands now, we have an NL roster. Hopefully Jones has a strong season and Quentin stays healthy.

[ptatc]

The DH is for offensive only players. That's the whole point. A dh has no defensive value.

 

He does if he versatile enough to rotate to defensive positions and give players rest on some days.

[jphat007]

Yep, versatility on the bench really isn't that important (especially when you have someone like Vizquel who can play 3 positions). As it stands now, we have an NL roster. Hopefully Jones has a strong season and Quentin stays healthy.

 

Jones certainly has the ability to put up decent numbers. I just don't think he will. Even if we had Damon on the team we still need CQ, Rios, Teahen and Ramirez to all bounce back and have good seasons. 1-2 in that group probably need to have a great season.

[chunk23]

He does if he versatile enough to rotate to defensive positions and give players rest on some days.

 

We don't need versatility at this point. There is plenty of that. I posted this a few pages back but I guess it needs to be repeated...

 

C: A.J., Castro, Flowers, and they're even having Retherford take reps at C.

1B: Konerko, Kotsay, Flowers - really anybody.

2B: Beckham, Teahen, Alexei, Nix, Vizquel, Retherford, Lillibridge,

SS: Alexei, Beckham, Vizquel, Nix, Lillibridge,

3B: Teahen, Beckham, Vizquel, Nix, Retherford, Lillibridge

RF: Quentin, Rios, Kotsay, Jones, Teahen

CF: Rios, Jones, Pierre, Alexei

LF: Pierre, Quentin, Jones, Kotsay

 

We don't need more versatility. We need someone who will give the Sox strong offensive production. Jones/Kotsay will not do that.

 

A rotation would be fine if it was the result of too much talent in a crowded lineup, something like 4 really good OFers. That's not the case here.

Edited February 20, 2010 by chunk23

[bmags]

Screw the video game crap KW is working in the real world with a real budget. You cannot feasibly put the best players at each position. If you do this you will be just average with average players at each position. When you must adhere to a budget you need to pick and choose where to spend your money. KW chose to spend his money on the pitching. The group of players you mention except for Damon are DHs. The Sox want to go with pitching and defense because that is where they spent their money to be very good in one aspect of the game. THey do not want more one dimensional DH players. They are not focusing on offensive only players.

 

He said "best players you can"

 

And a big problem here is that we have not been able to develop league average players to plug into positions so you aren't paying big major league deals at so many offensive positions when you are on a budget. Only beckham and Quentin qualify as such. While this isn't a problem specific to this offseason, it just shows that allocating 5 million more in the draft can save millions more on the major league roster. And so we hope that these players in the minors are actually talented enough to plug into those holes in the future so we can afford to keep our quentin's and beckhams.

[bmags]

at the very least, we learned through this debacle (as emmitt smith says, we got debacled) that the unknown twitter source is, in fact, not reliable.

 

And we slowly widdle away.

[knightni]

at the very least, we learned through this debacle (as emmitt smith says, we got debacled) that the unknown twitter source is, in fact, not reliable.

 

And we slowly widdle away.

He got blowed up by not being sharp as a whistle.

[chw42]

Boras is a crazy man. A very greedy and crazy one.

[ptatc]

We don't need versatility at this point. There is plenty of that. I posted this a few pages back but I guess it needs to be repeated...

 

C: A.J., Castro, Flowers, and they're even having Retherford take reps at C.

1B: Konerko, Kotsay, Flowers - really anybody.

2B: Beckham, Teahen, Alexei, Nix, Vizquel, Retherford, Lillibridge,

SS: Alexei, Beckham, Vizquel, Nix, Lillibridge,

3B: Teahen, Beckham, Vizquel, Nix, Retherford, Lillibridge

RF: Quentin, Rios, Kotsay, Jones, Teahen

CF: Rios, Jones, Pierre, Alexei

LF: Pierre, Quentin, Jones, Kotsay

 

We don't need more versatility. We need someone who will give the Sox strong offensive production. Jones/Kotsay will not do that.

 

A rotation would be fine if it was the result of too much talent in a crowded lineup, something like 4 really good OFers. That's not the case here.

 

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you. However, I'm saying that this is what they are going to to. This is what they want to do.

 

Jones will give you power and a good defensive replacement. Kotsay against RH only is a pretty good hitter and an option to give PK a rest. Not everyone can play first well enough to maintain a good defensive infield. Alexei can be erratic, Beckham is at a new position andTeahen will be an improvement but is far from a great 3B. I would rather trust someone we know can play there if they need to.

[jphat007]

Boras is a crazy man. A very greedy and crazy one.

 

And very rich.

[sircaffey]

We don't need versatility at this point. There is plenty of that. I posted this a few pages back but I guess it needs to be repeated...

 

C: A.J., Castro, Flowers, and they're even having Retherford take reps at C.

1B: Konerko, Kotsay, Flowers - really anybody.

2B: Beckham, Teahen, Alexei, Nix, Vizquel, Retherford, Lillibridge,

SS: Alexei, Beckham, Vizquel, Nix, Lillibridge,

3B: Teahen, Beckham, Vizquel, Nix, Retherford, Lillibridge

RF: Quentin, Rios, Kotsay, Jones, Teahen

CF: Rios, Jones, Pierre, Alexei

LF: Pierre, Quentin, Jones, Kotsay

 

We don't need more versatility. We need someone who will give the Sox strong offensive production. Jones/Kotsay will not do that.

 

A rotation would be fine if it was the result of too much talent in a crowded lineup, something like 4 really good OFers. That's not the case here.

 

Right. I love these cries for versatility. I'm glad we can make 12 different lineups that can maybe score 4 runs. Wait a couple months and they'll be screams for offense.

 

[ptatc]

He said "best players you can"

 

And a big problem here is that we have not been able to develop league average players to plug into positions so you aren't paying big major league deals at so many offensive positions when you are on a budget. Only beckham and Quentin qualify as such. While this isn't a problem specific to this offseason, it just shows that allocating 5 million more in the draft can save millions more on the major league roster. And so we hope that these players in the minors are actually talented enough to plug into those holes in the future so we can afford to keep our quentin's and beckhams.

 

I'm not disagreeing about the development of players. However, the 5 million you are referring to will not help anywhere significantly. There is a budget the 6 million they offered Damon is already over the budget. This is money that doesn't exist. You may think "just spending a little more" will help bit JR is not giving that money to KW.

 

KW spent his money on pitching if he had the extra 5 million we may not have the pitching staff that we do. As you said it's all about allocating the resources and KW decided to load it up in one area. It's like the NFL. Very few teams spread the money between the offense and defense because spreading it out only makes them average to above average. They concentrate on one area to be really good there and fill in the rest. This is what KW has done. It's just that the filling in part is on the offense which goes agianst what has been done here lately and people feel more comfortable with it.

 

[bmags]

That entire first paragraph had nothing to do with anything I'm talking about. If after the 2005 world series when revenues went up, we said increased our budget by that much in the draft, consistently, then we would be in much, much better shape. That's probably even more than we need.

 

And you know what, I don't give a damn about having the pitching staff that we do if it doesn't make the playoffs. I don't really have any positive feelings about 03. It's one thing to have a great ball club that hits a wall in the playoffs. It's an entirely different thing to have a really great pitching staff that can't get one of the 1-2 open spots in a 5 club division, especially one of the weaker ones.

 

 

[ScottyDo]

I'm not disagreeing about the development of players. However, the 5 million you are referring to will not help anywhere significantly. There is a budget the 6 million they offered Damon is already over the budget. This is money that doesn't exist. You may think "just spending a little more" will help bit JR is not giving that money to KW.

 

KW spent his money on pitching if he had the extra 5 million we may not have the pitching staff that we do. As you said it's all about allocating the resources and KW decided to load it up in one area. It's like the NFL. Very few teams spread the money between the offense and defense because spreading it out only makes them average to above average. They concentrate on one area to be really good there and fill in the rest. This is what KW has done. It's just that the filling in part is on the offense which goes agianst what has been done here lately and people feel more comfortable with it.

I agree with that. For some reason, people were significantly more accepting of bartolo colon and co. at the end of the rotation last year than they are of jones/kotsay this year. Talk about holes...40% of our rotation was holes last year.

[chunk23]

I agree with that. For some reason, people were significantly more accepting of bartolo colon and co. at the end of the rotation last year than they are of jones/kotsay this year. Talk about holes...40% of our rotation was holes last year.

 

I really really don't think that was the case. But let's pretend it was. When you have an excellent 1-3, and some strong potential with Richard, you can get by with trying out Contreras/Garcia/Colon in the 5 spot. However, when you have a mediocre at best lineup, you can't settle for well below average at a position that exists solely to produce offensively.

 

Edit: besides, going into the season with those holes in the rotation certainly hurt the Sox, didn't it? Why would we want to try it with the offense?

Edited February 20, 2010 by chunk23

[southsider2k5]

Reminiscent of how things stayed cordial with Peavy and eventually it all worked out in the end.

 

KW perhaps has learned after his series of blowups (pre-2007 for the most part)

 

I was thinking of Tadahitos courtship.

[ScottyDo]

I'm just saying, the perception of the worn-out veteran getting another chance appears to be much different for pitchers than it is for hitters. Maybe that's Greg Maddux's fault.

 

But yeah, I guess there was some backlash against the pitching staff. The whole CR/AP thing.

[southsider2k5]

Right. I love these cries for versatility. I'm glad we can make 12 different lineups that can maybe score 4 runs. Wait a couple months and they'll be screams for offense.

 

Last year all of the screams were for versatility...

[chunk23]

I'm just saying, the perception of the worn-out veteran getting another chance appears to be much different for pitchers than it is for hitters. Maybe that's Greg Maddux's fault.

 

But yeah, I guess there was some backlash against the pitching staff. The whole CR/AP thing.

I had forgotten about the CR/AP thing, but yeah, pretty much that.

 

I think the reason hitters and pitchers have a different reception is simply exposure. An old pitcher getting a second chance is only seen every five days. You see a hitter almost every day.

[SouthsideDon48]

We don't need versatility at this point. There is plenty of that. I posted this a few pages back but I guess it needs to be repeated...

 

C: A.J., Castro, Flowers, and they're even having Retherford take reps at C.

1B: Konerko, Kotsay, Flowers - really anybody.

2B: Beckham, Teahen, Alexei, Nix, Vizquel, Retherford, Lillibridge,

SS: Alexei, Beckham, Vizquel, Nix, Lillibridge,

3B: Teahen, Beckham, Vizquel, Nix, Retherford, Lillibridge

RF: Quentin, Rios, Kotsay, Jones, Teahen

CF: Rios, Jones, Pierre, Alexei

LF: Pierre, Quentin, Jones, Kotsay

 

We don't need more versatility. We need someone who will give the Sox strong offensive production. Jones/Kotsay will not do that.

 

A rotation would be fine if it was the result of too much talent in a crowded lineup, something like 4 really good OFers. That's not the case here.

 

You really shouldn't be counting minor league guys, because we know they won't spend much time on the 25-man roster.

 

So taking your list and making some adjustments based on how Ozzie is most likely to utilize his roster, our team's versatility looks like this:

 

C: A.J., Castro.

1B: Konerko, Kotsay.

2B: Beckham, Nix, Vizquel.

SS: Alexei, Vizquel, Nix.

3B: Teahen, Vizquel, Nix

RF: Quentin, Rios, Kotsay, Jones.

CF: Rios, Jones, Pierre.

LF: Pierre, Jones, Kotsay

 

*notes* I doubt Ozzie would ever plan on using Alexei and Teahen in the outfield, so lets strike those guys out of those positions. Also, lets just assume that Beckham, Alexei, and Teahen will be pencilled in at 2nd, SS, and 3B respectively in every game possible, because Ozzie usually prefers to have his starters stay at their everyday positions and have someone from the bench substitute for an injured player. This is why we never saw Quentin play anywhere else on the field except for LF, and why Ozzie rarely moved around Alexei and Beckham during the course of the season. It's only rare cases where Ozzie has players play out of position, such as when Dye played shortstop a few seasons ago, so we shouldn't really be considering starters' other positions as a method of verstatility. This is why it'd be good to have a DH type who can play in the field and sub for a player each day of the week instead of having a worthless DH-only player like Thome.

 

 

[whitesoxfan101]

I really really don't think that was the case. But let's pretend it was. When you have an excellent 1-3, and some strong potential with Richard, you can get by with trying out Contreras/Garcia/Colon in the 5 spot. However, when you have a mediocre at best lineup, you can't settle for well below average at a position that exists solely to produce offensively.

 

Edit: besides, going into the season with those holes in the rotation certainly hurt the Sox, didn't it? Why would we want to try it with the offense?

 

Bingo. If this team had a really good offense, or even just a generally good offense, and wanted to use the DH as a spot to rotate players and keep guys fresh, that's fine. But even with a legitimate DH like Johnny Damon, this would be a below average offense. Having a bad offense AND giving away the fact you will be one of the worst teams in the league in DH production is just not a fruitful way to do business, no matter how good the pitching is.

 

If this team misses the playoffs, odds are very high it will be the offense's fault (outside mass injury befelling it, this pitching staff should be very good), yet a team that clearly isn't afraid to spend won't go above and beyond to get a legitimate DH to help a sketchy offense. That's really strange and disappointing at the same time.