Phillies scouting Jenks and Putz

[greg775]

Yes but many relief pitchers outside of NY won't make it because the voters don't respect closers.

[Balta1701]

Yes but many relief pitchers outside of NY won't make it because the voters don't respect closers.

Give an example of a closer you think should make it but won't for this reason.

[Quin]

Rivera will make it because he's by far and away the greatest relief pitcher to ever live.

 

Lee Smith!

 

(Smith should probably be in the HoF, but I stand 50/50 on that.

[dyuen]

Rivera will make it because he's by far and away the greatest relief pitcher to ever live.

yes i would argue that Rivera is the most dominant player at his position of all time

[Kalapse]

Trevor Hoffman's probably getting in.

[WCSox]

Lee Smith!

 

(Smith should probably be in the HoF, but I stand 50/50 on that.

 

Yeah, pretty much. I have little doubt that both Hoffman and Rivera are inducted. Even without the rings, Hoffman's 596 career saves and 1.05 WHIP are mind-boggling.

 

[southsider2k5]

Trevor Hoffman's probably getting in.

 

He should be a first ballot guy.

[Lillian]

To return this thread to its original topic; please add Peavy to the list of players for whom the Sox should be hoping for a suitor.

His contract is going to get worse next year, and that $22 million option with a $4 million buyout in 2013 is very problematical.

I fear that those who argued that he would not be the same pitcher in the A.L., especially away from Petco Park, were right.

 

The Sox need to decide who the core players are going forward, and shed lot's of salary in order to make room for some significant free agent signings.

There are almost no players doing really well in the organization. They are going to have to try to acquire some decent prospects and make a few good draft choices, or this organization won't be competitive for years.

 

Here are my core players going forward:

 

John Danks

G. Floyd

D. Hudson

M. Thornton - I don't know how much it would take to resign him, but a dominating lefty reliever is just too valuable to let get away.

Sergio Santos

Brent Morel

Tyler Flowers

Jared Mitchell - A very high ceiling prospect who could become a very good lead off hitter

Gordon Beckham - I still think that he will make the necessary adjustments, and become a star.

Carlos Quentin - He has too much upside to give up on him.

Alex Rios - Finally, a true 5 tool centerfielder, and a contract to keep him here for a while

Dayan Viciedo - At his age, he does provide some very promising upside

 

Anyone else should be completely expendable.

 

Needs:

1) A serious left handed hitter should be the number one priority. There is not a single good prospect in the entire organization to fill that role. I'm talking about a high OBP, power bat.

2) At least one more good young starter. Too bad that they had to give up Richard, along with all of the salary that they took on in the Peavy "folly".

 

That's a start. What do you think?

Edited May 26, 2010 by Lillian

[hogan873]

To return this thread to its original topic; please add Peavy to the list of players for whom the Sox should be hoping for a suitor.

His contract is going to get worse next year, and that $22 million option with a $4 million buyout in 2013 is very problematical.

I fear that those who argued that he would not be the same pitcher in the A.L., especially away from Petco Park, were right.

 

The Sox need to decide who the core players are going forward, and shed lot's of salary in order to make room for some significant free agent signings.

There are almost no players doing really well in the organization. They are going to have to try to acquire some decent prospects and make a few good draft choices, or this organization won't be competitive for years.

 

Here are my core players going forward:

 

John Danks

G. Floyd

D. Hudson

M. Thornton - I don't know how much it would take to resign him, but a dominating lefty reliever is just too valuable to let get away.

Sergio Santos

Brent Morel

Tyler Flowers

Jared Mitchell - A very high ceiling prospect who could become a very good lead off hitter

Gordon Beckham - I still think that he will make the necessary adjustments, and become a star.

Carlos Quentin - He has too much upside to give up on him.

Alex Rios - Finally, a true 5 tool centerfielder, and a contract to keep him here for a while

Dayan Viciedo - At his age, he does provide some very promising upside

 

Anyone else should be completely expendable.

 

Needs:

1) A serious left handed hitter should be the number one priority. There is not a single good prospect in the entire organization to fill that role. I'm talking about a high OBP, power bat.

2) At least one more good young starter. Too bad that they had to give up Richard, along with all of the salary that they took on in the Peavy "folly".

 

That's a start. What do you think?

I'm starting to feel that the Sox should look to trade Peavy, but I don't see that happening because of his performance so far and his contract. KW won't trade him away for nothing, and I don't see any teams giving much up for him at this point. But, imagine the salary relief!

 

As far as your core player list, I like it. I would like to see, however, more from Quentin before he's considered part of the future. He's a shadow of his 2008 self right now, and I'm wondering if that was all we're gonna see from him.

[WCSox]

I'm starting to feel that the Sox should look to trade Peavy, but I don't see that happening because of his performance so far and his contract. KW won't trade him away for nothing, and I don't see any teams giving much up for him at this point. But, imagine the salary relief!

 

Exactly. The Sox are stuck with Peavy right now. In light of his performance this year, nobody's going to trade for that contract. And even if he was dealing like Halladay, I think that Kenny considers Peavy a long-term project and wouldn't be interested in moving him.

 

[Lillian]

Exactly. The Sox are stuck with Peavy right now. In light of his performance this year, nobody's going to trade for that contract. And even if he was dealing like Halladay, I think that Kenny considers Peavy a long-term project and wouldn't be interested in moving him.

 

That's all a shame because this guy will be earning an "Ace's" salary for the next 3 years, and I don't think he'll ever be the Ace of the staff.

If he does become the Ace, it will probably only be because everyone else is so bad.

Danks is the Ace, and has been for two years now. Few pitchers have turned in as many quality starts as he has, over that period.

We could use that money to resign Danks to a longer term contract, which he seems reluctant to do.

[jphat007]

I don't think Richard has given up more than 3ER in any start this year. 16 million and him instead of Peavy would look pretty neat right now

[Jordan4life_2007]

I don't think Richard has given up more than 3ER in any start this year. 16 million and him instead of Peavy would look pretty neat right now

 

Obviously Rios has shut you up. Now you've moved on to a Glenn Close obsession with Peavy.

[jphat007]

Obviously Rios has shut you up. Now you've moved on to a Glenn Close obsession with Peavy.

 

Maybe that means Peavy will be good next year.

[kwolf68]

 

I never trusted Peavy to begin with.

 

First the guy pitched in Petco and that inflates everyone's numbers. Take a look at what Jon Garland is doing this year.

 

Second he, for the longest time, did not want to pitch in the AL. Why? Does he like hitting that much? Or did he know he'd be an average pitcher in the AL.

 

But we're stuck with him unless he can string 3 or 4 quality starts in a row together, which he hasn't been able to do this year. He's been a bottom of the rotation starter and with the money he's commanding, that's a joke.

 

The Swisher and Peavy trades were just horrible decisions. Now this roster is full of old geezer, injury proned guys, overrated players, role players out of position, etc. I really would like to see a wholesale firesale of this team with all but just a few players being expendable.

[witesoxfan]

I don't think Richard has given up more than 3ER in any start this year. 16 million and him instead of Peavy would look pretty neat right now

 

Because comparing Clayton Richard pitching in AAAA ball in the best pitcher's park in the league to Jake Peavy pitching in the MLB and in a huge hitters park is completely fair.

[Leonard Zelig]

Because comparing Clayton Richard pitching in AAAA ball in the best pitcher's park in the league to Jake Peavy pitching in the MLB and in a huge hitters park is completely fair.

 

By AAAA, do you mean the entire NL?

[Lillian]

Because comparing Clayton Richard pitching in AAAA ball in the best pitcher's park in the league to Jake Peavy pitching in the MLB and in a huge hitters park is completely fair.

 

Richard has actually pitched pretty well on the road, as well.

Moreover, just not having to pay Peavy's huge contract would be worth undoing that trade. And we're not even mentioning Poreda or anyone else in that questionable deal.

Personally, I really regret that trade.

[hogan873]

Obviously Rios has shut you up. Now you've moved on to a Glenn Close obsession with Peavy.

I'm just reading your statement and not taking into account that there may be more to it, but I think everyone is looking very closely at Peavy, and all of the criticism right now is just. He's not pitching well, and hindsight being 20/20, many of us are groaning right now.

[jphat007]

I'm just reading your statement and not taking into account that there may be more to it, but I think everyone is looking very closely at Peavy, and all of the criticism right now is just. He's not pitching well, and hindsight being 20/20, many of us are groaning right now.

 

I was groaning before, btw. haha

[Jordan4life_2007]

I'm just reading your statement and not taking into account that there may be more to it, but I think everyone is looking very closely at Peavy, and all of the criticism right now is just. He's not pitching well, and hindsight being 20/20, many of us are groaning right now.

 

There is. jphat spent a good 6 months ripping Alex Rios ad nauseum. I get the feeling there's a part of him that hates the fact Rios would get some MVP votes if the season ended today. And now he's turned his attention (IMO obsession) towards Peavy. I have no problem with criticizing Jake's performance to this point. He's been bad. But pining for Clayton f***ing Richard? I don't think so. Jake can go on to be Jamie Navarro the sequel (won't happen), and no logical baseball fan would look back and say "Gee, if only we had Clayton Richard? How much better off would we be?"

[hogan873]

I was groaning before, btw. haha

There's a lot of groaning going on right now. That's why they invented beer.

Edited May 26, 2010 by hogan873

[witesoxfan]

By AAAA, do you mean the entire NL?

 

Precisely.

 

Richard has actually pitched pretty well on the road, as well.

Moreover, just not having to pay Peavy's huge contract would be worth undoing that trade. And we're not even mentioning Poreda or anyone else in that questionable deal.

Personally, I really regret that trade.

 

Aaron Poreda has been converted to a reliever. He currently has a K:BB of 19:21 in 20 innings in AA.

Dexter Carter has a put up a BB/9 of 6, K/9 of 8, and a HR/9 of 1.3 in 56 innings for the Padres' A-ball affiliate.

Adam Russell is a mediocre reliever.

 

That leaves Clayton Richard as the only piece of the deal that has hurt the White Sox in any way, shape, or form. Considering his mediocre peripherals (1.36 WHIP, 3.5 BB/9, 6.6 K/9, all of which fall in line with his career norms) and his unsustainably low HR rate of 0.2 HR/9 (where he is at 1 HR/9 throughout his entire career), I would say that Richard is not only likely but is bound to regress toward his career averages sooner rather than later.

 

Just to prove the point...Clayton Richard put up a 4.65 ERA with the Sox last year and a 4.08 ERA with the Padres. His ERA+ with the White Sox was 100 and his ERA+ with the Padres was 91. That means that, due to ballpark disparities and the general inferiority of the National League, Clayton Richard's 4.65 ERA with the White Sox was better and more valuable than his 4.08 ERA with the Padres. Just wrap your mind around that for a minute.

 

---

 

At the end of the day, by suggesting you regret the deal, you are stating that you'd rather have Clayton Richard, Adam Russell, Dexter Carter, and Aaron Poreda - 4 very mediocre arms who are afterthoughts in other organizations - than Jake Peavy, who has a legitimate arm and is, at the very least, a generally damn good pitcher. I know which of those two groups I am picking, and I'm not going to let a month and a half of baseball fool my judgment.

[Lillian]

There is. jphat spent a good 6 months ripping Alex Rios ad nauseum. I get the feeling there's a part of him that hates the fact Rios would get some MVP votes if the season ended today. And now he's turned his attention (IMO obsession) towards Peavy. I have no problem with criticizing Jake's performance to this point. He's been bad. But pining for Clayton f***ing Richard? I don't think so. Jake can go on to be Jamie Navarro the sequel (won't happen), and no logical baseball fan would look back and say "Gee, if only we had Clayton Richard? How much better off would we be?"

 

Any discussion of Peavy should take into consideration the money. At this point, I would just be happy if someone would take him and his contract.

The worst thing that can happen to a roster is to have someone being paid a huge portion of the total payroll, who is not performing well.

Ask the Cubs about how they feel over the "Big Z" dilemma.

[Jordan4life_2007]

Any discussion of Peavy should take into consideration the money. At this point, I would just be happy if someone would take him and his contract.

The worst thing that can happen to a roster is to have someone being paid a huge portion of the total payroll, who is not performing well.

Ask the Cubs about how they feel over the "Big Z" dilemma.

 

Please, the guy has had, what, 12 starts since he's been here? We're nowhere near the point of contract albatross. And the comparison to Zambrano is laughable. If you guys really think Peavy is suddenly a 6+ERA pitcher, have at it. Just save all the "I'm happily eating crow" bulls*** once he turns it around. And unless there's a physical issue, he will.