I want Ozzie and KW gone.

[caulfield12]

What I really find amazing is that a scant six weeks ago, the board was feeling a little bit dead and listless and we were all facing the possibility of another 2007, except like it felt that it was coming even earlier.

 

Now we're fighting each other over something we have absolutely zero control over. I guess after the last two blown Jenks saves (especially the one against Minnesota), I came to the conclusion it was going to be another version of 2008, that the winner would be the evil of two lessers...or the lesser of two evils, or however that goes, except maybe you can add Detroit into the mix as well. Hopefully, we can take a step back and realize that we should be elated we at least have baseball at this point in the season to care about.

 

Yes, the last three years have been frustrating. We can sit around and argue until we're blue in the face about the farm system, Ozzie having too much say over the make-up of the ballclub (especially the DH/Thome situation), the fact that we're lacking in pitching depth and payroll space to make a big move, but it doesn't do much good to get frustrated with each other.

 

These White Sox are a resilient bunch. They proved it in 2008 when everyone counted them out, and I wouldn't be surprised if the same thing happened again. The funny thing is that expectations have been reversed and it's now Twins fans who are the favorites and underachievers, with almost nobody picking the White Sox to go anywhere without Peavy. If you look at EVERYTHING that has gone wrong, those numerous issues that have been dissected over and over again here, we're still in first place.

 

We control our own destiny. Something like 23 out of our last 65 games are against Detroit and Minnesota. That's how it should be. Let the best team win, and let the chips fall where they may.

 

I wouldn't bet against KW, and there's quite a few Minnesota fans who are afraid that the Twins will stand pat and just hope for their players to rebound. They at least have a choice, whereas KW is pinned into a bit of a corner. But ask Twins' fans who they would rather have as their GM, Bill Smith or Kenny Williams, and a majority will pick our GM. Why? Because he does whatever is possible to put the team in the best position to win...last year was the first time the Twins made a flurry of moves at the deadline, and there's still a chance they'll come up with an Oswalt and blow right past the rest of the division. Actually, because the White Sox and Tigers are crippled, it makes standing pat and keeping all their prospects very very tempting, and that's what KW has to be counting on, with the possibility of waiting to strike at the last second with an unexpected deadline move. Of course, the Twins could still go out and claim an Oswalt on waivers and not be hurt financially. Nothing would surprise me in this crazy season.

 

But we should be used to up's and down's and momentum shifts after going through the last 4-5 years of White Sox and ALCD baseball.

Edited July 26, 2010 by caulfield12

[bigruss]

I do not agree with the base of this thread and period. This is all over the Angels getting Haren? Lets not act as if they didn't take on a good size contract and a pitcher who is having one of his worse seasons in a long time and gave up some decent talent.

 

The White Sox should not have been acquiring Haren anyway, adding another large pitching contract would really put the Sox in a s***ty position for the future.

I saw this thread started more in response to the Sox not having the pieces to go after an impact player like Haren, Dunn, Fielder, etc because of a weak farm system that wouldnt have any MLB ready impact pieces left ove if we traded for one of those guys.

[Chisoxfn]

I saw this thread started more in response to the Sox not having the pieces to go after an impact player like Haren, Dunn, Fielder, etc because of a weak farm system that wouldnt have any MLB ready impact pieces left ove if we traded for one of those guys.

Well the Angels paid a very significant price to get Haren. Saunders, despite his struggles this year, is a legitimate big league pitcher who has had a ton of success in the AL and on top of that they gave up 2 very good prospects and other pieces.

[bigruss]

Well the Angels paid a very significant price to get Haren. Saunders, despite his struggles this year, is a legitimate big league pitcher who has had a ton of success in the AL and on top of that they gave up 2 very good prospects and other pieces.

Which is proving the point alot have been stating that the Sox's farm system is crippling their ability to make impactful moves right now.

[chw42]

The first six years that KW was general manager he did not post a losing record.

 

As for Ozzie, when you put up a .530 managerial record over 1100 games you are doing something right.

 

Other than 2005 and maybe 2008, this team has UNDERACHIEVED every single year that he has been the manager given the amount of money we've put into the team and the talent that was on it.

 

When you've had $95-$110 million payrolls these past 5 years, you expect to win every year. Kenny's right, 2007 and 2009 were embarrassments.

Edited July 26, 2010 by chw42

[Leonard Zelig]

They always say the best time for a first place team to fire its manager and general manager is the week before the trade deadline.

[BigSqwert]

I want Ozzie and KW gone

 

I want A-Gon

[chw42]

Well the Angels paid a very significant price to get Haren. Saunders, despite his struggles this year, is a legitimate big league pitcher who has had a ton of success in the AL and on top of that they gave up 2 very good prospects and other pieces.

 

It's nowhere near significant IMO. Saunders is a mediocre pitcher, always has been. He was fortunate in 2008, a lucky first half gave him some pretty numbers. But now you've seen him exposed these past two years. He's a solid 4th or 5th starter on most teams. Plus, for a guy who is a groundball pitchers, he sure gives up a lot of home runs.

 

They didn't even give up anyone in their top 10 other than the PTBNL. They basically got Haren for two good prospects, a mediocre one, and a mediocre pitcher who is a non-tender candidate next year. He's 30, set to make $6 or $7 million next year with absolutely zero upside. This is one of the worst deals I've ever seen for such an established pitcher. Plus, considering what they gave up for Haren, this is just ridiculous. Carlos Gonzalez and Brett Anderson are future all-stars while Chris Carter projects to be at least a solid Major League bat. To get back nothing close to the caliber of those players is just unacceptable.

Edited July 26, 2010 by chw42

[Kyyle23]

I want A-Gon

 

I want U-Gon

[soxrwhite]

Been a Sox fan since the sixties. A few good years here and there. Since Kw and Ozzie have been running things we either win or are competitive every year This franchise has gained alot of respectability in the last 5-7 years. We have become accustomed to being close and or in the playoffs and world series. Lets not get greedy and end up worse off than we are now. I believe the Sox will continue to knock on the door and even win another championship with this tandem. ..........There are times they can really piss ya off though!

[Chisoxfn]

It's nowhere near significant IMO. Saunders is a mediocre pitcher, always has been. He was fortunate in 2008, a lucky first half gave him some pretty numbers. But now you've seen him exposed these past two years. He's a solid 4th or 5th starter on most teams. Plus, for a guy who is a groundball pitchers, he sure gives up a lot of home runs.

 

They didn't even give up anyone in their top 10 other than the PTBNL. They basically got Haren for one good prospect, two mediocre ones, and a mediocre pitcher who is a non-tender candidate next year. He's 30, set to make $6 or $7 million next year with absolutely zero upside. This is one of the worst deals I've ever seen for such an established pitcher. Plus, considering what they gave up for Haren, this is just ridiculous. Carlos Gonzalez and Brett Anderson are future all-stars while Chris Carter projects to be at least a solid Major League bat. To get back nothing close to the caliber of those players is just unacceptable.

I think Corbin is a top 10 prospect. Call me crazy but don't just go by what BA puts out there as of a year ago. Those lists tend to downplay newly drafted prospects. Corbin was a 2nd round pick,

 

And Skaggs was dubbed my many as having the most projectable arm in last years baseball draft. And he's a lefty. It would be the equivalent of the Sox giving up Sale, Hudson, and Sergio Santos.

 

That is the best I can come up with since we don't have a starter that compares to Saunders. I'd say that would be a pretty solid package. Is it a fair one, absolutely and I think the Angels paid a fair price given that they were willing to take on 33M. Seems like a lot of teams were less willing.

 

And lets not pretend as if Haren comes without blemishes. He's having his worse year and has been over-worked for a few years over. Could that be a sign that he's wearing down? Possibly?

 

People thought the ANgels stole Kazmir last year and I'm pretty sure the Angels would like a do-over on that trade.

[caulfield12]

Other than 2005 and maybe 2008, this team has UNDERACHIEVED every single year that he has been the manager given the amount of money we've put into the team and the talent that was on it.

 

When you've had $95-$110 million payrolls these past 5 years, you expect to win every year. Kenny's right, 2007 and 2009 were embarrassments.

 

Which is no different from what Detroit has done, but they've spent even MORE money than the White Sox since 2006...significantly more.

 

The difference being they lost in the World Series and also being edged out by Minnesota in Game 163.

 

Minnesota has just had a better organizational philosophy over that entire time, and they've stayed true to it. Unfortunately, as with the Oakland A's and Atlanta Braves, that system only gets them so far before they run into a brick wall.

 

And I wouldn't even say the 2006 team underachieved, I just think the wear and tear of all those pitches came down hard on the starting rotation and that 2005 team overachieved to such a degree that it was impossible to sustain that level of success...combined with Minnesota and Detroit both getting good quickly and rebounding.

 

You can cite 10-12 teams every season that overspend and get poor results, and the White Sox probably wouldn't come up as one of the worst offenders for any season except for 2007. We only have to look miles to the north for a team in a much more dire financial position.

 

And the Angels were basically gift-wrapped the AL West for most of this decade as the M's teams of the early 00's fell apart/got old, and the A's went through a series of financial, stadium and personnel issues...then you have Texas, which always had the hitting but not enough pitching.

 

At least there's been quite a bit of competition between the White Sox, Twins, Indians and Tigers for much of this decade. The same can't be said of the AL West, and that's why all of those Angels teams since 2002 came up short.

Edited July 26, 2010 by caulfield12

[bigruss]

Been a Sox fan since the sixties. A few good years here and there. Since Kw and Ozzie have been running things we either win or are competitive every year This franchise has gained alot of respectability in the last 5-7 years. We have become accustomed to being close and or in the playoffs and world series. Lets not get greedy and end up worse off than we are now. I believe the Sox will continue to knock on the door and even win another championship with this tandem. ..........There are times they can really piss ya off though!

This type of attitude that everything is alright because we are better than we used to be will be the downfall of the organization if that is what they believe.

 

They should continually be looking to get better in all facets of management, whether it be upgrading the ballpark, enhancing the fan's experiences, developing and drafting better, etc.

 

This franchise does alot well and alot right, but it has major areas to improve upon and to say "well, we're better than we used to be, so its all peachy" will put you right back into a crappy position.

[Chisoxfn]

It's nowhere near significant IMO. Saunders is a mediocre pitcher, always has been. He was fortunate in 2008, a lucky first half gave him some pretty numbers. But now you've seen him exposed these past two years. He's a solid 4th or 5th starter on most teams. Plus, for a guy who is a groundball pitchers, he sure gives up a lot of home runs.

 

They didn't even give up anyone in their top 10 other than the PTBNL. They basically got Haren for two good prospects, a mediocre one, and a mediocre pitcher who is a non-tender candidate next year. He's 30, set to make $6 or $7 million next year with absolutely zero upside. This is one of the worst deals I've ever seen for such an established pitcher. Plus, considering what they gave up for Haren, this is just ridiculous. Carlos Gonzalez and Brett Anderson are future all-stars while Chris Carter projects to be at least a solid Major League bat. To get back nothing close to the caliber of those players is just unacceptable.

The Diamondbacks did get a few years of elite pitching out of Haren, so lets not act like they didn't get his production for a period of time. And Haren also was cheaper at the time they acquired him which meant they had to give up a decent amount.

 

But those guys happen to be prospects who panned out (Gonzalez and Anderson).

[bigruss]

The Diamondbacks did get a few years of elite pitching out of Haren, so lets not act like they didn't get his production for a period of time. And Haren also was cheaper at the time they acquired him which meant they had to give up a decent amount.

 

But those guys happen to be prospects who panned out (Gonzalez and Anderson).

I would say that the package for Peavey was better than the package the DBacks got for Haren at teh time of each trade. Especially when you consider injury histories for both pitchers, and the contracts they have.

[Kyyle23]

This type of attitude that everything is alright because we are better than we used to be will be the downfall of the organization if that is what they believe.

 

They should continually be looking to get better in all facets of management, whether it be upgrading the ballpark, enhancing the fan's experiences, developing and drafting better, etc.

 

This franchise does alot well and alot right, but it has major areas to improve upon and to say "well, we're better than we used to be, so its all peachy" will put you right back into a crappy position.

 

 

I do not think for one second that KW's philosophy is "things are better than they used to be so this it is all peachy"

[Chisoxfn]

I would say that the package for Peavey was better than the package the DBacks got for Haren at teh time of each trade. Especially when you consider injury histories for both pitchers, and the contracts they have.

I can't agree with this.

 

Skaggs is better than anyone we gave up in the Peavy deal. Saunders is better than Richard. Corbin couldn't have been much different than Dex. Both were relatively high round picks who have had minor league success.

 

Lets not forget we didn't give up a whole hell of a lot in that Peavy deal. It was just a lot of arms that we traded, but the quality of which could be debated. None with major upside, with the potential exception of Dex who still had a lot of issues. Richard should be quite solid in the NL and will be a valuable mid of the rotation starter. And Adam Russel couldn't make it with the Sox so not a whole hell of a lot different than the 4th the Angels gave up.

 

 

[bigruss]

I do not think for one second that KW's philosophy is "things are better than they used to be so this it is all peachy"

I dont believe he is thinking like that either, but his actions with the farm system and international FAs is telling me that they still are not doing the necessary actions to really improve our farm system. Yes, we are doing a much better job, especially with our first few picks, but where is the depth of going after hard to sign guys later on? There has been improvement, but not enough IMO.

 

 

[Chisoxfn]

And I want to say that I would not have traded Santos, Hudson and Sale for Haren and his contract, which isn't a bad contract in any sense of the imagination but is still pricey.

 

* I know we can't trade Sale for a year, but I'm pointing out the fact that Sale is the guy in our system most similar to Skaggs (completely different pitchers, but in terms of high-upside guys).

 

I should also state that I think the above package might be a little better than the Angels package, but it really depends on how much you value a proven commodity like Joe Saunders.

[caulfield12]

This type of attitude that everything is alright because we are better than we used to be will be the downfall of the organization if that is what they believe.

 

They should continually be looking to get better in all facets of management, whether it be upgrading the ballpark, enhancing the fan's experiences, developing and drafting better, etc.

 

This franchise does alot well and alot right, but it has major areas to improve upon and to say "well, we're better than we used to be, so its all peachy" will put you right back into a crappy position.

 

So you're saying you would gamble Beckham/Hudson/Viciedo/Flowers away for Fielder/Dunn/Haren/Oswalt (fill in the blank)?

 

And then what...if 2009 repeats itself?

 

In your desire to create a team capable of winning the World Series this year, you've blown a huge hole in our future ability to compete.

 

Kenny Williams is as much of a gambler as anyone in baseball, and even he sees more downside to going all in for 2010 than sitting this one out and playing the cards he's been dealt. If we still had Peavy, it might be a different result, but we don't have that luxury anymore.

 

Or you don't want us to make a big move, we're (or you're) just collectively lamenting the fact that we can't do so?

 

I don't think anyone in the organization is in danger of acting like they're satisfied with what they've accomplished, it's simply a matter of balancing the short and long-term interests of the ballclub, ownership group and fanbase.

 

 

 

 

[chw42]

The Diamondbacks did get a few years of elite pitching out of Haren, so lets not act like they didn't get his production for a period of time. And Haren also was cheaper at the time they acquired him which meant they had to give up a decent amount.

 

But those guys happen to be prospects who panned out (Gonzalez and Anderson).

 

But both of those were very, very established prospects. None of the guys they got back for Haren have anywhere near the sparkle of Carter, Gonzalez, and Anderson.

 

And I'm not saying the Diamondbacks didn't get much from Haren from a performance standpoint, they did. But just because he's had one bad year doesn't mean he's regressing. His velocity is still there and it hasn't changed much from last year, the home runs are the only thing that's costing him this year. Even then, those might be the result of the park since his xFIP is at 3.40, only about .3 runs higher than it was last year.

[bigruss]

I can't agree with this.

 

Skaggs is better than anyone we gave up in the Peavy deal. Saunders is better than Richard. Corbin couldn't have been much different than Dex. Both were relatively high round picks who have had minor league success.

 

Lets not forget we didn't give up a whole hell of a lot in that Peavy deal. It was just a lot of arms that we traded, but the quality of which could be debated. None with major upside, with the potential exception of Dex who still had a lot of issues. Richard should be quite solid in the NL and will be a valuable mid of the rotation starter. And Adam Russel couldn't make it with the Sox so not a whole hell of a lot different than the 4th the Angels gave up.

It depends on the scouts you ask, for Poreda couldve been looked at as a potential ace in some eyes, and in others a potential lights out closer.

 

Skaggs has potential, but is still at A ball. Comparable to Dex, but probably better. Ive never been impressed my Saunders and would put him around Richard's value, especially when you consider you will have to pay around 6 million for him next year.

 

And when you consider the contracts/injuries of Peavey/Haren I would give the edge to Haren and the package given up for him as a better trade for the Angels than peavey for the Sox.

[bigruss]

So you're saying you would gamble Beckham/Hudson/Viciedo/Flowers away for Fielder/Dunn/Haren/Oswalt (fill in the blank)?

 

And then what...if 2009 repeats itself?

 

In your desire to create a team capable of winning the World Series this year, you've blown a huge hole in our future ability to compete.

 

Kenny Williams is as much of a gambler as anyone in baseball, and even he sees more downside to going all in for 2010 than sitting this one out and playing the cards he's been dealt. If we still had Peavy, it might be a different result, but we don't have that luxury anymore.

 

Or you don't want us to make a big move, we're (or you're) just collectively lamenting the fact that we can't do so?

 

I don't think anyone in the organization is in danger of acting like they're satisfied with what they've accomplished, it's simply a matter of balancing the short and long-term interests of the ballclub, ownership group and fanbase.

 

No, Im saying the organization cant make these moves because the system is too weak to supplement the after effects of such a move.

 

[chw42]

And I want to say that I would not have traded Santos, Hudson and Sale for Haren and his contract, which isn't a bad contract in any sense of the imagination but is still pricey.

 

* I know we can't trade Sale for a year, but I'm pointing out the fact that Sale is the guy in our system most similar to Skaggs (completely different pitchers, but in terms of high-upside guys).

 

I should also state that I think the above package might be a little better than the Angels package, but it really depends on how much you value a proven commodity like Joe Saunders.

 

That package is a lot better than what the Angels gave up. Hudson projects to be about the same pitcher as Saunders this year and he has room to improve. Sale is kind of similar to Skaggs, but Santos is a lot better than Rodriguez. In fact, I think the advantages that the Sox prospects overshadow the fact that the Angels also gave up an extra guy in Corbin.

[Chisoxfn]

But both of those were very, very established prospects. None of the guys they got back for Haren have anywhere near the sparkle of Carter, Gonzalez, and Anderson.

 

And I'm not saying the Diamondbacks didn't get much from Haren from a performance standpoint, they did. But just because he's had one bad year doesn't mean he's regressing. His velocity is still there and it hasn't changed much from last year, the home runs are the only thing that's costing him this year. Even then, those might be the result of the park since his xFIP is at 3.40, only about .3 runs higher than it was last year.

Was Carter really that established? My memory might be fazy, but wasn't Carter like an A ball player who the Dbacks had just acquired for Carlos Quentin, which at the time, was considered a relatively minor deal (obviously Quentin went on to blow up and carter has kept hitting at an elite power clip). So, I don't quite know if I'd call Carter established.

 

Skaggs was an elite arm in last years draft. Clearly valuable.

Corbin was a 2nd round pick...again, clearly some talent is there.

Saunders is at the very least a league average arm who at times has been better than league average and he does it from the left side (and by the way, I wouldn't mind having Saunders on the Sox if we could get him on the cheap because we could use another league average starter, imo, but the price is too steap given the limited available trading assets this club has).

 

Is that as much as Gonzalez/Anderson, probably not, but Gonzalez was a young, very toolsy guy that still had to grow into his frame who the A's traded away for Holliday (something I'm sure they regret).

 

Bottom line: I think the Dbacks ended up giving up a lot, because those guys panned out, but they were also trading for a guy who was entering his prime years, controllable, and quite cheap at the time. At the time they traded haren, he is in the midst of his worse year, has pitched a lot of innings, and is owed another 33M (nothing appalling, but it is still a good chunk of money). I'd say that is a bit different of a situation.

 

And in no way am I saying the Dbacks killed. I like the trade for the Angels quite a bit. Long term it works for what they are doing. I also don't have a problem with the Dbacks, ableit, if they could have gotten a more elite prospect, than they should have done it.

 

I think the Mariners killed because they got Smoak who is an elite elite prospect (and I also see why the Rangers did it). I don't think Haren was worth an elite elite prospect at this time. The Angels instead got a guy that could turn into an elite prospect (Skaggs), a quality major league starter, and another young lefty (Corbin) with some goods.

 

I do like the Angels pitcher more than the one built around Joba.