iamshack Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 (edited) QUOTE (Tex @ Oct 13, 2011 -> 03:21 PM) Lincoln had spoke out against slavery years before he became president. It is true that he was willing to allow slavery to remain in the south, but he was against any additional slave states being added to the union. I would not go so far as to say he didn't have an issue with it. I believe it would be more accurate to say that stopping the spread was probably the practical limit to what could have been done at the time. Most people incorrectly assume that the Emancipation Proclamation freed all slaves. Actually slaves that were living in the north were not freed, only in the Confederate States. And yes it was much of a war tactic as a moral issue. It also was brilliant in that it effectively stopped any European country from coming to the help of the Confederacy. I've read some interesting papers that theorize that France or Spain may have come to the aid of the southern states. That would have been a game changer. What is interesting to me was a debate at the time whether slavery was more a legal or moral issue. Well Europe is where all the Southern cotton was going, so many European nations were watching closely and considering jumping in on the side of the likely winner. Once it became evident just how much of a war of attrition it would be, the nations seriously considering backing a side decided it would be best to stay out of the conflict. As for Lincoln, there is certainly a gray line there instead of something black or white, but there is no question that had the Jefferson Davis come to Lincoln with a truce agreement in say, 1862, which called for a cessation of hostilities premised on the Southern states keeping their slaves, Lincoln would have been hard-pressed to not sign it. Edited October 13, 2011 by iamshack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Oct 13, 2011 -> 03:33 PM) Oh man not pyramidology.... Ancient engineering and scientific discoveries are pretty amazing, though. The complexities of ancient American societies and their advanced knowledge is discussed in 1491 pretty heavily. I'm going to have to pick up this book... It's pretty clear to me, and I consider myself to be a reasonably intelligent person, that to write off the Native Americans, or any of the ancient cultures, for that matter, as ignorant or unsophisticated is incredibly ignorant in and of itself. All one needs to do is look at just the evidence in clear view today, after thousands of years, in order to realize that somehow, some sort of incredible intelligence was present that we cannot even replicate today. How that isn't more of a controversy amongst not only academia, but just the casual historian, is hard for me to fathom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 The political realities of not destroying a country and his personal anti-slavery convictions are two separate things. Going back to the Lincoln-Douglas debates at least, his parsing of the Declaration's preamble meant that all men were equal. I should like to know if taking this old Declaration of Independence, which declares that all men are equal upon principle and making exceptions to it where will it stop. If one man says it does not mean a negro, why not another say it does not mean some other man? If that declaration is not the truth, let us get the Statute book, in which we find it and tear it out! Who is so bold as to do it! If it is not true let us tear it out! let us stick to it then, let us stand firmly by it then. (I learned this in the Lincoln Memorial last week!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Oct 13, 2011 -> 03:33 PM) Oh man not pyramidology.... Ancient engineering and scientific discoveries are pretty amazing, though. The complexities of ancient American societies and their advanced knowledge is discussed in 1491 pretty heavily. Some of it is far fetched, but their use of distances related to the length of the earth, and angles relating to star locations is pretty solid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted October 13, 2011 Author Share Posted October 13, 2011 It still blows me away from the book just how quickly disease destroyed a whole culture of people. It's just incomprehensible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 (edited) QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Oct 13, 2011 -> 03:48 PM) Some of it is far fetched, but their use of distances related to the length of the earth, and angles relating to star locations is pretty solid. More rigorous surveys of the pyramids (by Petrie, IIRCCole) discount anything based on the "pyramid inch" since it didn't exist. I can link you to a hundreds-of-pages-long thread on another forum covering this in excruciating detail (thanks, aspie scientists who like to argue with creationists!) You also need to play around an awful lot with significant digits and measurement precision that just isn't possible. Edited October 13, 2011 by StrangeSox Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 QUOTE (bmags @ Oct 13, 2011 -> 03:52 PM) It still blows me away from the book just how quickly disease destroyed a whole culture of people. It's just incomprehensible. Dozens of cultures, as much as 90% of the Western Hemisphere population and a good percentage (40% was the estimate, I think) of the world population. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Oct 13, 2011 -> 03:54 PM) More rigorous surveys of the pyramids (by Petrie, IIRC) discount anything based on the "pyramid inch" since it didn't exist. I can link you to a hundreds-of-pages-long thread on another forum covering this in excruciating detail (thanks, aspie scientists who like to argue with creationists!) I'm not referring to that stuff. I'm talking about stuff like the pyramids size in relation to the length of the earth, or the placement and sizing of pyramids in relation to specific stars. Things that aren't dependent on relative units of measure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Oct 13, 2011 -> 03:56 PM) I'm not referring to that stuff. I'm talking about stuff like the pyramids size in relation to the length of the earth, or the placement and sizing of pyramids in relation to specific stars. Things that aren't dependent on relative units of measure. You need to know the unit of measure that the Egyptians were using and the precision and accuracy they could maintain in order to determine that, which is where the pyramid inch comes in. There's also the problem that they recorded damn near everything in their written language, but only recorded some pretty amazing astronomical knowledge in a large monument that couldn't be realized for several millennia. Their astronomical knowledge, engineering abilities and construction capabilities are still remarkable, however. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 You guys can call be crazy, but I honestly believe in the ancient astronaut theory to explain this stuff... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrimsonWeltall Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Oct 13, 2011 -> 09:00 PM) Their astronomical knowledge, engineering abilities and construction capabilities are still remarkable, however. The Goa'uld did all that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 Yeah that goes right back to the 1491 problem of prejudice against a bunch of societies in the form of "well, they simply weren't smart enough to do that!" that's rarely laid against contemporary European societies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted October 13, 2011 Author Share Posted October 13, 2011 QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Oct 13, 2011 -> 09:55 PM) Dozens of cultures, as much as 90% of the Western Hemisphere population and a good percentage (40% was the estimate, I think) of the world population. But in like...1-2 generations of people! Can you imagine how that would affect someone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 QUOTE (bmags @ Oct 13, 2011 -> 04:10 PM) But in like...1-2 generations of people! Can you imagine how that would affect someone? My thoughts while reading that were "Oh, so it was kinda like The Road for the survivors" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 I've also been meaning to pick up Guns, Germs and Steel which follows a similar theme to Mann's books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenksismyhero Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Oct 13, 2011 -> 04:14 PM) I've also been meaning to pick up Guns, Germs and Steel which follows a similar theme to Mann's books. Read the first 10 pages and you have the book. Really the rest is pretty boring. Anyone interested in Lincoln's views should read Team of Rivals, an excellent book that gives you a lot of background of not only Lincoln's political history but the country's as well. The nation was much more split between slavery and anti-slavery by about 1830 than I had thought previously. From what I can recall from the book (read it like 3 years ago), Lincoln was a realist. While personally he didn't care for slavery and he spoke out against it on multiple occasion, his first priority as President was preservation of the Union. Yes, he did say that he'd allow southern slavery if that meant the Union would be spared, but honestly I don't buy it. I think he (and other politicians like him) would have sought some sort of concessions from the South to phase out slavery or limit it in some way. The slave issue was hitting an apex as the civil war stuff started. Other state/federal issues were also at play that really generated the war movement. Slavery was just the easy cause to attach to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 A lot of the cotton that got around the Union blockade came through my area of the world. Once they shipped it to Texas it was fairly easy to smuggle it into Mexico and once on Mexico flagged ships, it was safe passage east. I know I was surprised when I learned that the US was about the last country to ban slavery. That gave us the competitive advantage, combined with Slatter stealing textile mill trade secrets, to build great wealth. It was also stolen tobacco seeds that started that industry and slaves that kept it going. Drop a couple bombs on Japan and invent a practical computer and you have the greatest country in the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 QUOTE (iamshack @ Oct 13, 2011 -> 03:44 PM) I'm going to have to pick up this book... It's pretty clear to me, and I consider myself to be a reasonably intelligent person, that to write off the Native Americans, or any of the ancient cultures, for that matter, as ignorant or unsophisticated is incredibly ignorant in and of itself. Yet don't we do that with many cultures and countries today? Don't we look down at other countries in so many different ways. I'm recalling something as simple as going outside of the US for medical treatments that are not approved of here. When someone does that (cough Maggs) we assume it can't be for the quality of the care but some other reason. And please don't ask me to go find the thread. We seem to believe that all the great advances will come from the US. Our form of government is the best for all people. Our religious, social, sexual, and whatever other freedom we can think of is the best for all cultures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted October 13, 2011 Author Share Posted October 13, 2011 Actually I believe we've pushed for parliamentary elections in most countries we've tried to build up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 QUOTE (Tex @ Oct 13, 2011 -> 05:56 PM) A lot of the cotton that got around the Union blockade came through my area of the world. Once they shipped it to Texas it was fairly easy to smuggle it into Mexico and once on Mexico flagged ships, it was safe passage east. I know I was surprised when I learned that the US was about the last country to ban slavery. That gave us the competitive advantage, combined with Slatter stealing textile mill trade secrets, to build great wealth. It was also stolen tobacco seeds that started that industry and slaves that kept it going. Drop a couple bombs on Japan and invent a practical computer and you have the greatest country in the world. Actually...there are more recent studies which suggest that the presence of slavery was a moderate economic negative for most of the areas in the South where it was prevalent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knightni Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 Lee refused to fight against Virginia, that's why he fought for the South. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Oct 13, 2011 -> 04:00 PM) You need to know the unit of measure that the Egyptians were using and the precision and accuracy they could maintain in order to determine that, which is where the pyramid inch comes in. There's also the problem that they recorded damn near everything in their written language, but only recorded some pretty amazing astronomical knowledge in a large monument that couldn't be realized for several millennia. Their astronomical knowledge, engineering abilities and construction capabilities are still remarkable, however. You don't need to know it at all, because the ratio of the two is all that matters. It doesn't matter if it was called feet, meters, cubits, or what. If the ratio is 1:12 for example, it doesn't matter what it is determined in, it will always end up being 1:12. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 QUOTE (bmags @ Oct 13, 2011 -> 04:10 PM) But in like...1-2 generations of people! Can you imagine how that would affect someone? The black death hit numbers on the low end of estimates (what took place post Columbus)in places in Europe (30-50%) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knightni Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 Just imagine world population sizes without wars and plagues... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyyle23 Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 QUOTE (knightni @ Oct 13, 2011 -> 06:53 PM) Just imagine world population sizes without wars and plagues... Mother Nature keeps trying to exterminate us, we just keep getting out of it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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