Grab a SP now

[The Ultimate Champion]

There's also a pretty fair chance I'd say that we could give Santana $13M per over 3-4 years while the Yankees get Tanaka for 7 year $175M, and 2-3 years in we're looking like geniuses and they're looking pretty stupid, because we just traded Santana for a small ransom while they're stuck with that contract. The risk on Santana is a lot lower than the risk on Tanaka, and so is the $$$, but somehow Tanaka was the greatest thing since sliced bread while Santana is crap?

[Marty34]

Isn't there a draft and INTL period every single year?

 

These guys stocks rise and fall all the time, you know that. The draft pick is a great thing to have, it is very high, but give Santana 1-2 years where he's quality and put him on the trade market and there is serious value there. You're looking at 3 good prospects there or maybe 1 very good or great prospect plus more, and the return you get is made up of players your entire org has been scouting WITHIN the MiLB system, meaning you are seeing how they are doing against the best MILB comp at that level, everybody is using wooden bats, etc. It's going to be a lot easier for scouts to get a handle on guys who have been doing it at the MiLB level & have accumulated a bit of a track record in the process.

 

Marty isn't wrong all of the time ya know. He's right about the pitching, you can always trade it if it's good.

 

Thanks UC, I appreciate the kind words especially since we've had our differences in the past.

 

You never have enough pitching and I don't understand the idea of when we need it, we'll spend the money then. It's like buying a furnace in the winter even though you have money for it in the summer.

[ptatc]

Thanks UC, I appreciate the kind words especially since we've had our differences in the past.

 

You never have enough pitching and I don't understand the idea of when we need it, we'll spend the money then. It's like buying a furnace in the winter even though you have money for it in the summer.

I agree you can never have too much pitching. However, I also trust the Sox to know if the prospects are ready for a chance at the MLB. If they are ready let them have the chance to grow.

[The Ultimate Champion]

Signing Ervin Santana doesn't block Beck, Danish, or Johnson. It blocks Rienzo & Paulino. Why is this a bad thing? And if Paulino looks good in the pen then great, he can be our spot starter & if one of our SP goes down then he's the guy, and it's not Rienzo (yessss) and neither is it a better prospect who isn't ready.

[ScottyDo]

Nobody's saying we're set on pitching. All anyone is saying is that we are not desperate for it, and that signing a mid-level FA that requires putting a small ding in the rest of the Sox talent pool is not the best way to go about it.

Edited January 26, 2014 by ScottyDo

[Bigsoxhurt35]

No way in hell I'd touch any of the guys that'd be expensive and give up a pick. I'd be ok with a guy like Hanson and see if coop can get him back to being something decent

Edited January 27, 2014 by Bigsoxhurt35

[Y2Jimmy0]

Lets make this clear: THE WHITE SOX ARE NOT SIGNING ERVIN SANTANA. IT IS A STUPID IDEA. RICK HAHN IS NOT DOING ANYTHING THAT WILL COST THE TEAM A DRAFT PICK BECAUSE THAT WOULD BE STUPID AND RICK HAHN IS NOT STUPID. WHY ARE PEOPLE STILL GOING BACK AND FORTH ON THIS? WE ARE FEEDING A TROLL THAT IS LOOKING TO GET FED. THIS HAS TO STOP. MARTY I ONLY HAVE 1 QUESTION: WERE YOU AT SOXFEST ASKING HAHN WHY AJ PIERZYNSKI ISNT ON THE TEAM ANYMORE? YOUR THOUGHTS ON THIS TOPIC ALIGN PERFECTLY WITH THEIRS.

[The Ultimate Champion]

Lets make this clear: THE WHITE SOX ARE NOT SIGNING ERVIN SANTANA. IT IS A STUPID IDEA. RICK HAHN IS NOT DOING ANYTHING THAT WILL COST THE TEAM A DRAFT PICK BECAUSE THAT WOULD BE STUPID AND RICK HAHN IS NOT STUPID. WHY ARE PEOPLE STILL GOING BACK AND FORTH ON THIS? WE ARE FEEDING A TROLL THAT IS LOOKING TO GET FED. THIS HAS TO STOP. MARTY I ONLY HAVE 1 QUESTION: WERE YOU AT SOXFEST ASKING HAHN WHY AJ PIERZYNSKI ISNT ON THE TEAM ANYMORE? YOUR THOUGHTS ON THIS TOPIC ALIGN PERFECTLY WITH THEIRS.

This argument would be easily torn apart had it been constructed normally. Caps = no can defend, argument is now indestructible. I am at a loss.

[Marty34]

Lets make this clear: THE WHITE SOX ARE NOT SIGNING ERVIN SANTANA. IT IS A STUPID IDEA. RICK HAHN IS NOT DOING ANYTHING THAT WILL COST THE TEAM A DRAFT PICK BECAUSE THAT WOULD BE STUPID AND RICK HAHN IS NOT STUPID. WHY ARE PEOPLE STILL GOING BACK AND FORTH ON THIS? WE ARE FEEDING A TROLL THAT IS LOOKING TO GET FED. THIS HAS TO STOP. MARTY I ONLY HAVE 1 QUESTION: WERE YOU AT SOXFEST ASKING HAHN WHY AJ PIERZYNSKI ISNT ON THE TEAM ANYMORE? YOUR THOUGHTS ON THIS TOPIC ALIGN PERFECTLY WITH THEIRS.

 

I have yet to make a Soxfest. Unfortunately, complications that can arise with my disability when it gets this cold out prevent me from getting out during the dead of winter. Even a short trip to and from a van can cause problems for me.

[caulfield12]

Except for the fact that not pitching him kills the work we've done building up his arm the last 2 seasons. I think you should go shoot chris sale in the leg. It would help the white sox's future as much as any of your other ideas.

 

 

 

 

As soon as I read your line, I started thinking of the Steffi Graf fanatic stabbing Monica Seles or Tonya Harding/Nancy Kerrigan.

 

Don't give him any ideas, please.

 

 

 

 

 

IF ERWIN SANTANA WAS SO GREAT, WHY WEREN'T THE ANGELS ABLE TO GET BACK ANYTHING DECENT FOR HIM??? IT'S NOT LIKE THEY DON'T NEED PITCHING. YOU DON'T SIGN $40-50 MILLION DOLLAR CONTRACTS WITH THE HOPES TO TRADE/LEVERAGE THOSE PLAYERS UNLESS YOU CAN AFFORD TO HAVE MORE DUNN AND DANKS SITUATIONS. PAULINO, SURE. SERGIO SANTOS or LOAIZA, SURE.

 

Plus, didn't we learn with Swisher, Javy and Orlando Cabrera the danger of playing this dangerous game?

 

Santana has lost 3-5 MPH off his stuff from a decade ago with the Angels and he would absolutely get lit up pitching in USCF. I wouldn't be shocked if there was a statistic out there that has him throwing the most pitches in MLB over the last decade. Finally, Royals Stadium masked a lot of his deficiencies, just as pitching in Seattle or Seattle can do for the Clayton Richards and Eric Stultzes (there's another guy we gave up for nothing) of the world.

Edited January 27, 2014 by caulfield12

[The Ultimate Champion]

Santana has lost 3-5 MPH off his stuff from a decade ago with the Angels and he would absolutely get lit up pitching in USCF. I wouldn't be shocked if there was a statistic out there that has him throwing the most pitches in MLB over the last decade. Finally, Royals Stadium masked a lot of his deficiencies, just as pitching in Seattle or Seattle can do for the Clayton Richards and Eric Stultzes (there's another guy we gave up for nothing) of the world.

http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playe...ion=P#pitchtype

[The Ultimate Champion]

Santana has had 6 full healthy MLB seasons. One of them was terrible, the others have been at least quality if not very good. He's a 200+IP per year guy with the ability to dominate, also the ability to lose focus and so on. I've said this a thousand times, but he's very Gavin Floyd like & at what his price tag might be that's a nice value & provides the Sox with additional trade options to explore. Given that the 2 greatest strengths of our organization seem to be developing pitching/working with established pitching and keeping players generally healthy, I'd say he's a decent bet at the very least, given how the free agency process works & that there are so many bad deals in general. Santana isn't nearly the risky proposition he looked to be early on when his agent was demanding all those years & all that money.

[justBLAZE]

@MLBBruceLevine 19s

 

Sox Fest wrap up! The team will trade any player with three or more years experience this side of Chris Sale . (Need catching and RH starter)

 

[BlackSox13]

Uh guys. This is all completely irrelevant now. Hahn has already said they won't sign a player that could cost drat pick, he's also said they aren't interested in signing a FA pitcher and he's also said they went after Tanaka based on his age and talent. So what's the fuss over? For those in favor of signing a FA starter, might I suggest sending an email to Hahn and co. since hes the one negotiating deals instead of arguing over something thats an improbability.

[GGajewski18]

Not sure if this was posted or not but this is an interesting Merkin tweet that RV said,

 

Scott Merkin ‏@scottmerkin 2h

Under the radar comment from Ventura at end of SoxFest: How the roster looks today is not necessarily how it will look at the end of ST

[Marty34]

Uh guys. This is all completely irrelevant now. Hahn has already said they won't sign a player that could cost drat pick, he's also said they aren't interested in signing a FA pitcher and he's also said they went after Tanaka based on his age and talent. So what's the fuss over? For those in favor of signing a FA starter, might I suggest sending an email to Hahn and co. since hes the one negotiating deals instead of arguing over something thats an improbability.

 

I think those of us advocating signing a starter that requires draft pick compensation realize Hahn isn't going to do it, but is it really the right thing to do? You know for all the hope of spending to fill holes this offseason the Sox have gotten away really cheap so far . . .

[caulfield12]

Santana has had 6 full healthy MLB seasons. One of them was terrible, the others have been at least quality if not very good. He's a 200+IP per year guy with the ability to dominate, also the ability to lose focus and so on. I've said this a thousand times, but he's very Gavin Floyd like & at what his price tag might be that's a nice value & provides the Sox with additional trade options to explore. Given that the 2 greatest strengths of our organization seem to be developing pitching/working with established pitching and keeping players generally healthy, I'd say he's a decent bet at the very least, given how the free agency process works & that there are so many bad deals in general. Santana isn't nearly the risky proposition he looked to be early on when his agent was demanding all those years & all that money.

 

 

 

 

THEN SIGN GAVIN FLOYD at 1/10th the cost and flip him.

 

There's little risk in that move, or the Paulino move.

 

What's going to have the bigger payoff, in the end? I'll take 5-10 Paulino's/Floyds/Johan Santanas/Mulders/Hanson's and you can have one of Erwin Santana/Jimenez. Surkamp would be another example.

 

Not only do I keep my second round pick, but my return in talent will be 5-10X greater.

 

Of course, we have to pitch Sale/Quintana/Danks, but there's no reason you couldn't have 2-3 low risk pitchers on your roster (the back two starters and long man), especially if Johnson and Rienzo aren't ready to go until midseason. And you could preserve Johnson's arbitration clock for another year.

 

Now, of course, you also need to use that time to develop your young pitching...because a team rehabbing and flipping pitchers would simply be rinsing and repeating this same process over and over again and never getting any positive traction.

 

 

I'M STILL WAITING FOR ONE EXAMPLE OF A PITCHER OF OVER 30 YEARS OLD BROUGHT IN AS A FREE AGENT AND SIGNED FOR 3 OR MORE YEARS AND $40+ MILLION WHERE THE SIGNING TEAM WON THAT DEAL...?

 

If it's so patently obvious this is the best strategy, why wouldn't lots of other teams be doing the same exact thing, trying to exploit a niche before everyone catches on, like the A's with OPS, the Royals with their bullpen or the Pirates with their defensive alignments/sinkerball approach?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 27, 2014 by caulfield12

[BlackSox13]

I think those of us advocating signing a starter that requires draft pick compensation realize Hahn isn't going to do it, but is it really the right thing to do? You know for all the hope of spending to fill holes this offseason the Sox have gotten away really cheap so far . . .

I wouldn't do but it but that's just my opinion. It adds up to me - A 99 loss team, a high draft pick, a bad but improving farm system, a team not expected to compete in 14 , running low on players worth trading that they aren't trying to hold on to, down ticket sales in a down economy. I can see why. I would rather take my chances on young pitcher that has the potential to get better over a pitcher that is going to begin his decline.

 

Also, if we don't spend the money this year it can be used on a free agent hitter or trade for higher cost hitter to replace Dunn next offseason. Not sure what next years free agents will look like. Same principal if we slide Tank over to DH, we can sign/trade for a LF with some left handed pop.

Edited January 27, 2014 by StRoostifer

[greg775]

I think those of us advocating signing a starter that requires draft pick compensation realize Hahn isn't going to do it, but is it really the right thing to do? You know for all the hope of spending to fill holes this offseason the Sox have gotten away really cheap so far . . .

 

I don't understand why Hahn is stopping right now. I'm thinking in the offseason, Keppinger and Gillaspie sound like very good players and Flowers/Phegs doesn't sound so bad and our pitching staff seems just fine. But that's wishful thinking, fool's gold.

 

To all of you "rebuilding people" please please answer this. My assertion is if we added a real catcher, another starter and preferably a real second baseman we "could" win the division. It's doable to add all three. So tell me ... do you agree with my assertion we are THAT CLOSE to contending now? If the answer as I expect, is yes, then why not go for it? I'd hate to be out of the race in May when we are this close NOW.

Edited January 27, 2014 by greg775

[Y2Jimmy0]

I don't understand why Hahn is stopping right now. I'm thinking in the offseason, Keppinger and Gillaspie sound like very good players and Flowers/Phegs doesn't sound so bad and our pitching staff seems just fine. But that's wishful thinking, fool's gold.

 

To all of you "rebuilding people" please please answer this. My assertion is if we added a real catcher, another starter and preferably a real second baseman we "could" win the division. It's doable to add all three. So tell me ... do you agree with my assertion we are THAT CLOSE to contending now? If the answer as I expect, is yes, then why not go for it? I'd hate to be out of the race in May when we are this close NOW.

 

 

I honestly don't think that the Sox are that close. They are depending on so many things. I am very excited for the season because I want to see the young players but I don't correlate that excitement with thinking they will be in the division race. I think the absolute best case scenario is something like 79-83. But to me, the record doesn't really matter. I want to see which young players look like long-term answers. I want to see the Sox continue to add to the system with draft, international signings, and the trading of veterans. That's a successful season to me next year. I know a lot of people differ and that's fine. I just wouldn't advocate getting your hopes up.

[ScottyDo]

I don't understand why Hahn is stopping right now. I'm thinking in the offseason, Keppinger and Gillaspie sound like very good players and Flowers/Phegs doesn't sound so bad and our pitching staff seems just fine. But that's wishful thinking, fool's gold.

 

To all of you "rebuilding people" please please answer this. My assertion is if we added a real catcher, another starter and preferably a real second baseman we "could" win the division. It's doable to add all three. So tell me ... do you agree with my assertion we are THAT CLOSE to contending now? If the answer as I expect, is yes, then why not go for it? I'd hate to be out of the race in May when we are this close NOW.

There isn't a pitcher available who can get us to the point of contention. Tanaka might have been able to get us there - potentially - but none of the rest of the pitchers available are nearly that high-impact. That moves the whole contention window past this year and makes the urgency for settling the C position less urgent. And there isn't really a great C available anyway, at least not one we can afford to trade for without sacrificing the organizational depth we just worked to achieve for the long-term success of the club. Plus, we've got plenty of question marks on the roster currently, and it makes more sense to get some answers before diving headlong in one direction.

[GGajewski18]

Hahn will not go after any pitching via free agency this year. Next year's pitching class is loaded and I can totally see Hahn getting a pitcher next year.

[hi8is]

Not sure if this was posted or not but this is an interesting Merkin tweet that RV said,

 

Scott Merkin ‏@scottmerkin 2h

Under the radar comment from Ventura at end of SoxFest: How the roster looks today is not necessarily how it will look at the end of ST

Not surprised at all... A lot can happen in 5 weeks, especially since a lot of the market was caught in a two week tanaka cog.

[GGajewski18]

Not surprised at all... A lot can happen in 5 weeks, especially since a lot of the market was caught in a two week tanaka cog.

 

I really think we see De Aza and Keppinger traded. I also think Hahn will somehow Jason Castro.

[ScottyDo]

I mean, Hahn himself said something similar on the Score yesterday. He just said no SPs that cost a draft pick.