The Participation Trophy Generation

[Iwritecode]

This is the post of the year. Worded like Shakespeare.

"over active parental oversight."

That is such a cool way to say parents have coddled their babies for a couple generations now. You can blame it on the rare mass murders and kidnappings or whatever you want, but parents took away the kids' right to be a kid. No more playing baseball on street corners (you might get hit by a car, you know) or riding bikes with friends to hang out wherever their bikes took them (you might get kidnapped you know) to play whatever sport they felt like playing that day (throw a football, play whiffle ball or rubber ball with a wall as a backstop), play street hockey, go skating at the park in the winter. Nope, parents put uniforms on their kids at age 6 and organized everything lest their little babies get kidnapped or killed by some imagined threat.

 

I know a few parents like that but IMO, technology is more to blame. Kids today can talk to and interact with all of their friends without ever leaving their bedroom now. They'd much rather text each other than talk face-to-face or even on the phone. They can play games with all their friends on their Xbox or PS3. They can sit and watch movies and TV shows all day long. None of that existed when we were kids.

 

My original thread was misstated by me I guess. I just wondered why college athletes are expected to win and fans get all hot and bothered when they don't win (football, basketball) when their generation has been taught just competing is OK. How do we expect these kids to be "gamers" when all their lives they've been taught the result doesn't matter?

 

I don't think the whole "winning doesn't matter" applies to college or professional athletes. By the time they hit HS the participation awards are done. That's only in little league or pee-wee football. The ones that are actually serious about the sport and really want to win are the ones that actually continue on through HS and college.

[greg775]

I agree with the general point here, but I mean, if something happened, wouldn't you as a parent feel terrible? Given the availability of organized sports for kids from the time they're 3, call me crazy, but not letting them play on the street isn't some major sin as a parent.

 

My son's K-5 school is 3 blocks from our house. I'm already dreading the day when we let him walk there by himself. I'm not sure it'll happen to be honest! I applaud those parents that want their kids to get out there and explore at a young age. And I 100% think it's bulls*** that some people/communities want to fine them for being bad parents/ But i'm also not going to judge other parents for not wanting to take the risk.

 

Your post is great and understandable and 100 percent in line with how we as a society feel today. No way in hell kids are allowed to be kids and be alone EVER.

I just want to say this. When I was a kid, from 10 years old on, in Mt. Greenwood, parents would allow kids to basically do whatever they wanted to do in the summer. Your bike was your friend. Unorganized sports with buddies was your friend!

And nobody I ever know was hit by a car, kidnapped, abused, approached. Kids did play Little League from age 10 on. Drove their own bike to the games; parents rarely attended unless you made the playoffs or something. Great life. Nobody got killed or kidnapped or hit by cars. I'd make the bike ride from 103rd street to 115th Street where the fields were. Never a problem.

We also got soft drinks if we won paid for by our coaches; we got nothing if we lost. For some reason people in my generation and ensuing generations refused to allow their own kids to have the same childhoods. We were too afraid of "something happening" to the kids. Can you imagine if coaches only bought soda for the kids if they WON nowadays? The horror. Buy those kids cokes win OR lose!!

Edited June 24, 2015 by greg775

[Jenksismyhero]

Your post is great and understandable and 100 percent in line with how we as a society feel today. No way in hell kids are allowed to be kids and be alone EVER.

I just want to say this. When I was a kid, from 10 years old on, in Mt. Greenwood, parents would allow kids to basically do whatever they wanted to do in the summer. Your bike was your friend. Unorganized sports with buddies was your friend!

And nobody I ever know was hit by a car, kidnapped, abused, approached. Kids did play Little League from age 10 on. Drove their own bike to the games; parents rarely attended unless you made the playoffs or something. Great life. Nobody got killed or kidnapped or hit by cars. I'd make the bike ride from 103rd street to 115th Street where the fields were. Never a problem.

We also got soft drinks if we won paid for by our coaches; we got nothing if we lost. For some reason people in my generation and ensuing generations refused to allow their own kids to have the same childhoods. We were too afraid of "something happening" to the kids.

 

From the geezers in my office, they'd argue the biggest difference between now and when they were kids is that neighborhoods used to be neighborhoods. You knew everyone on the block and all the kids on the block. Parents could rely on other parents to keep kids in line. Nowadays i'm not sure how much that happens. Certainly in some areas, but there's a ton of movement now. You don't buy a house and plan to live there until you die. The house you live in is just a stepping stone to the next one.

[greg775]

From the geezers in my office, they'd argue the biggest difference between now and when they were kids is that neighborhoods used to be neighborhoods. You knew everyone on the block and all the kids on the block. Parents could rely on other parents to keep kids in line. Nowadays i'm not sure how much that happens. Certainly in some areas, but there's a ton of movement now. You don't buy a house and plan to live there until you die. The house you live in is just a stepping stone to the next one.

 

I just think folks born at the end of the Baby Boomer generation decided it was unsafe for their kids to do anything unattended. And every generation to follow has copied that and only made it worse. Johnny and Julie must be taken care of and watched and protected at all times and also can do no wrong. Just ask teachers who get in trouble for giving bad grades to brats who deserve the bad grades.

[Iwritecode]

Your post is great and understandable and 100 percent in line with how we as a society feel today. No way in hell kids are allowed to be kids and be alone EVER.

I just want to say this. When I was a kid, from 10 years old on, in Mt. Greenwood, parents would allow kids to basically do whatever they wanted to do in the summer. Your bike was your friend. Unorganized sports with buddies was your friend!

And nobody I ever know was hit by a car, kidnapped, abused, approached. Kids did play Little League from age 10 on. Drove their own bike to the games; parents rarely attended unless you made the playoffs or something. Great life. Nobody got killed or kidnapped or hit by cars. I'd make the bike ride from 103rd street to 115th Street where the fields were. Never a problem.

We also got soft drinks if we won paid for by our coaches; we got nothing if we lost. For some reason people in my generation and ensuing generations refused to allow their own kids to have the same childhoods. We were too afraid of "something happening" to the kids. Can you imagine if coaches only bought soda for the kids if they WON nowadays? The horror. Buy those kids cokes win OR lose!!

 

 

When I was in 4th or 5th grade one of the kids that was a grade below me was killed by being hit by a car on his way to school.

 

As far as knowing your neighbors, I know that we have a least 2 sex offenders within a few blocks of our house. My girls had a few friends in the neighborhood but they all moved away before they even hit 7th grade.

[LittleHurt05]

If it weren't for participation trophies, the Sox wouldn't be winning any hardware at all.

[greg775]

When I was in 4th or 5th grade one of the kids that was a grade below me was killed by being hit by a car on his way to school.

 

As far as knowing your neighbors, I know that we have a least 2 sex offenders within a few blocks of our house. My girls had a few friends in the neighborhood but they all moved away before they even hit 7th grade.

Yes and fear of this kind of stuff will forever have our kids imprisoned in their own homes, putting on their uniforms for soccer and baseball and basketball when they are 5 years old. It is what it is. I'm just saying parents are way overprotective and that's OK because that's the way it is now. We had a nut on our block when I was a kid and the parents did say to NEVER go in the vicinity of that house. Nobody got knifed by that moron either.

Edited June 25, 2015 by greg775

[CanOfCorn]

I was thinking about something the other day. The current generation of 20 somethings to young 30 somethings are members of the generation that could do no wrong as kids. When they played competitive sports it was OK to suck and OK to lose. These are the same people who quit jobs after a year or so and move on to another firm or profession when the jobs aren't fun or what they expected. We've been told the current generation is seeking easy street ASAP and can't understand work ethic like previous generations.

 

My psychological question is why hasn't this moved over to sports? We expect a ton from our young athletes. College football and basketball players get ripped in the press and by fans when they don't perform well. Guys in big league baseball from the Participation Trophy Generation get ripped and are expected to produce lest they get reamed by media and fans.

 

My question is ... why do we expect this age group to perform like the Pete Rose age group? Is this a factor in baseball hitters not being as good nowadays or young NBA lottery picks of the last 3-4 years for the most part sucking? Has this filtered to professional sports? I just wondered why fans and media expect so much from young players nowadays when they are from a totally different generation, one not raised to excel and compete as hard as past generations. Also, how can a 20-something fan who was raised that losing is OK and just participating is enough ... how can that fan demand so much from players and even boo players when they were raised that failure is very OK?

 

Please respond if you understand my point.

 

I would say it HAS moved over to sports in a way. Not by being "ripped in the press and by fans," but with things like LeBron's "The Decision." You would NEVER have had that before this "generation."

[caulfield12]

Part of it's the immediacy and depth of information from the internet, which didn't exist for most of the 80's and into the early to mid 90's.

 

The other reason is ESPN and its massive network of channels...showing LeBron's high school games, or nearly every single game of the Little League World Series. Before, we just had the final/championship game in the U.S., and I can't remember if we had the international championship, but it definitely wasn't on ABC.

[ptatc]

I was thinking about something the other day. The current generation of 20 somethings to young 30 somethings are members of the generation that could do no wrong as kids. When they played competitive sports it was OK to suck and OK to lose. These are the same people who quit jobs after a year or so and move on to another firm or profession when the jobs aren't fun or what they expected. We've been told the current generation is seeking easy street ASAP and can't understand work ethic like previous generations.

 

My psychological question is why hasn't this moved over to sports? We expect a ton from our young athletes. College football and basketball players get ripped in the press and by fans when they don't perform well. Guys in big league baseball from the Participation Trophy Generation get ripped and are expected to produce lest they get reamed by media and fans.

 

My question is ... why do we expect this age group to perform like the Pete Rose age group? Is this a factor in baseball hitters not being as good nowadays or young NBA lottery picks of the last 3-4 years for the most part sucking? Has this filtered to professional sports? I just wondered why fans and media expect so much from young players nowadays when they are from a totally different generation, one not raised to excel and compete as hard as past generations. Also, how can a 20-something fan who was raised that losing is OK and just participating is enough ... how can that fan demand so much from players and even boo players when they were raised that failure is very OK?

 

Please respond if you understand my point.

I don't think it really applies to professional athletes. The professional athletes have never had the experience of just a participation trophy as they were always the best every level in everything they did. Most people go their entire youth/high school sports careers without knowing one of these athletes as they are very few and far between. Look at a guy like DJ on the radio. He'll talk about being the best pitcher in every league he played in through high school. These are ratre athletes and never experience what you are discussing.

[greg775]

Did you guys see the reports that the University of Illinois football coach and women's basketball program allegedly abused players physically and mentally? I'm surprised we don't hear more of this stuff especially with parents of spoiled athletes getting upset when their kids flop in college.

I will say I have mixed emotions. Some of these college coaches really do coach by intimidation. What gives them the right to call out kids for the neighborhoods they grew up in? Also I do believe a lot of college kids are mocked/pressured by their coaches to play when injured.

There's way too much offseason conditioning and playing football and basketball in the offseasons. Way too much. In the pros ... it's too late for a coach to be an asshole to the players for the most part. I guess in NFL there still could be some pressure to play while injured. But again, some of these college coaches are little dictators and I say if they abuse kids they deserve to lose these lawsuits and get shown the door.

 

Of course, a coach's only defense in college is winning. If you win, the fans will back you 100 percent and claim the players are big babies. If you lose though, look out ...

[Texsox]

I think the whole idea of participation awards making kids ok with losing is BS to begin with. I'm almost 40 and we had those awards back when I played. It's not a "new" thing.

 

The thing is, kids aren't stupid. They know what those trophies are. They know that they aren't nearly as good as the first place trophies the other kids are walking around with.

 

Often times we would get ice cream or some other treat after the game even if we lost but it didn't make us want to win any less.

 

Honestly, I think the bigger problem is the kids that are getting pushed by their parents who are trying to re-live their failed sports aspirations through their kids.

 

I have 3 girls and only the youngest had/has any interest in playing any kind of sport. She's not the worst, but she's not the best either. If she wants to continue to try and get better I'll support her but I'm not going to push her thinking she'll be the next Cat Osterman or Jennie Finch.

 

Nicely said.

 

Those trophys are souvenirs. Like a race t-shirt or a golf ball with the course logo. The only people that seem to be confused by this are the people who make a living pointing out problems that don't exist.

[Texsox]

I would say it HAS moved over to sports in a way. Not by being "ripped in the press and by fans," but with things like LeBron's "The Decision." You would NEVER have had that before this "generation."

 

Is that a result of entertainment technology with billions of bytes of content to fill each moment?

[Jake]

In my hometown I was playing ball at the Boys & Girls Club (the main host for this sort of thing in that area) when they decided to quit keeping score in basketball. Had nothing to do with hurting kids' feelings. It was the parents losing their god damned minds about every little thing when the games were played to win.

[southsider2k5]

In my hometown I was playing ball at the Boys & Girls Club (the main host for this sort of thing in that area) when they decided to quit keeping score in basketball. Had nothing to do with hurting kids' feelings. It was the parents losing their god damned minds about every little thing when the games were played to win.

 

In my experiences in youth sports, the parents are BY FAR worse then the kids. I almost wonder if the trophys are more for them, versus the kids.

[greg775]

In my hometown I was playing ball at the Boys & Girls Club (the main host for this sort of thing in that area) when they decided to quit keeping score in basketball. Had nothing to do with hurting kids' feelings. It was the parents losing their god damned minds about every little thing when the games were played to win.

 

That's actually a pretty good idea. Have the kids, at least the ones in leagues under the age of 12, just play what amounts to pick up games. You have officials but don't keep score. Play for two hours. The worst players could get in and no parent blames the poor kids who blow the lead. The parents then wouldn't be able to blame the coaches for anything cause there's no winner/loser. Do fun stuff like stop the game and have a couple kids do a layup drill and free throw extended drill.

It really would shut up the parents. Some dopey dad would probably try to keep score and yell out which team was winning, but nobody would listen to that loudmouth. As long as there's no scoreboard, nobody will listen to any kook demanding there be a score.

I like it at least until the kids hit their teen years. then u can turn on the scoreboard at 13.

 

p.s.: Like you said, kids are smart though. When I was in Mt Greenwood Little League (ages 10-12), all the teams played their best players. There was no rule everybody had to play a certain amount of innings. If you stunk you might never get in a game.

Just one team in the league, the Larks, let all the kids play equal innings/at bats, etc. That team routinely got blown out by ridiculous scores and their players (they had some good players who had to sit) were pitied more than laughed at by the kids on the other teams. The smart kids on our team wanted the best players to play. Our coaches did have a rule that in your final year, when u were 12, you played every game. The coaches trusted themselves to draft the right players (yes there were tryouts and a draft) and teach them the game to where they wouldn't embarrass themselves in their final year of LL (12).

Edited July 19, 2015 by greg775

[Jake]

In my town, Little League worked like this (wasn't formally associated with LL, just called itself that):

-There was a brief, one-day tryout in which every player who signed up was graded by each of the league's coaches. The combined scores were used to create a player ranking (only available to coaches and commissioner).

-A draft was conducted, with each coach taking his or her own son in the round he was slotted.

-Each team had 11-13 players, but rarely would a team both have 13 players and have 13 players present at any game.

-Every player batted throughout the entire game. You'd have a 1-11 or 12 or 13 batting order, so no pinch hitting and all that.

-Every player needed to play the field at least 3 innings of every 6 inning game. There may have been special exceptions for when you had 13 players there.

 

The worst players got the least playing time, but usually the amount of kids not coming to games for whatever reason meant everyone got well above the minimum. I think most of the coaches also felt that it wasn't right to stash a kid on the bench, especially when the talent wasn't deep anyway. The worst player and the 6th worst player were both probably going to botch anything hit to left field.

 

The time my dad coached me he had a brilliant strategy for those horribad players: teach them to bunt. First of all, even decent LL teams screw up bunts defensively. This also gave those kids a legitimate chance to contribute in important situations. And more often than not, for the kids who really did want to do well, this was a big confidence booster. If they bunted a "triple" they were suddenly taking big hacks in their next plate appearance instead of running out of the box or whatever they would normally do. The trick obviously is to make sure you don't send these poor kids up there with the instruction to bunt every single time because you want to give them the chance to get better.

[greg775]

In my town, Little League worked like this (wasn't formally associated with LL, just called itself that):

-There was a brief, one-day tryout in which every player who signed up was graded by each of the league's coaches. The combined scores were used to create a player ranking (only available to coaches and commissioner).

-A draft was conducted, with each coach taking his or her own son in the round he was slotted.

-Each team had 11-13 players, but rarely would a team both have 13 players and have 13 players present at any game.

-Every player batted throughout the entire game. You'd have a 1-11 or 12 or 13 batting order, so no pinch hitting and all that.

-Every player needed to play the field at least 3 innings of every 6 inning game. There may have been special exceptions for when you had 13 players there.

 

The worst players got the least playing time, but usually the amount of kids not coming to games for whatever reason meant everyone got well above the minimum. I think most of the coaches also felt that it wasn't right to stash a kid on the bench, especially when the talent wasn't deep anyway. The worst player and the 6th worst player were both probably going to botch anything hit to left field.

 

The time my dad coached me he had a brilliant strategy for those horribad players: teach them to bunt. First of all, even decent LL teams screw up bunts defensively. This also gave those kids a legitimate chance to contribute in important situations. And more often than not, for the kids who really did want to do well, this was a big confidence booster. If they bunted a "triple" they were suddenly taking big hacks in their next plate appearance instead of running out of the box or whatever they would normally do. The trick obviously is to make sure you don't send these poor kids up there with the instruction to bunt every single time because you want to give them the chance to get better.

 

That all makes sense. Did any parents get mad if their kids had to bunt, though? I like your league's rule of letting everybody bat, but man in a six inning game nobody bats more than twice I bet.

I do wanna say this about our Little League back in the day in Mt. Greenwood. It's funny you talk about kids missing games like it's expected and routine. In our LL, our serious coaches would discipline you if you missed a game or were late for a game. Yes disciplined Little Leaguers. Back in the day parents rarely went to our games and if they did go, they yelled at umps but not at coaches for some reason.

I remember one year when I was 12, my final year of LL and third year of playing for the same coaches, my grandfather took me to two Cubs games in Chicago (my grandfather was a Cub fan and I preferred the Sox but agreed to go with him; hey it was MLB) the same week we had LL games. The first day Cub game, my grandfather got me to my LL game just in the nick of time to take fielding practice, etc. The coach was not pleased I was at a day Cubs game before our LL game instead of resting, but all was OK cause we won and I did OK. But then our next game we hit traffic and I was late for infield practice because of my grandfather taking me to the Cubs game again. The coach benched me but seeing a had a good attitude about it let me pinch hit and I scored the winning run. He yelled at me after the game and said if I was late again that was it. I'd be on the bench forever.

Nowadays the coach would not be allowed to yell at me like that.

Edited July 19, 2015 by greg775

[Texsox]

I've been coaching kids in various venues for 25 years.

 

Parents are the greatest help and the worst nightmares, sometimes at the same time. Great youth coaches get the parents buy in.

[greg775]

I've been coaching kids in various venues for 25 years.

 

Parents are the greatest help and the worst nightmares, sometimes at the same time. Great youth coaches get the parents buy in.

Awesome, Tex. As coach do you have the authority to get mad at the kids if they are late or disruptive or do you have to let the little precious kiddies do whatever they want nowadays cause you have no right to bench them or make them run laps, etc? I would assume parents don't take kindly to coaches yelling at their kids.

[Texsox]

Awesome, Tex. As coach do you have the authority to get mad at the kids if they are late or disruptive or do you have to let the little precious kiddies do whatever they want nowadays cause you have no right to bench them or make them run laps, etc? I would assume parents don't take kindly to coaches yelling at their kids.

 

You have to build the trust with the parents first. You have to establish some credibility that you know what you are talking about. Then as long as you are looking out for the player's best interest parents will give you some leeway.

 

High school sports are a little different but parents are parents. I've always sought out parent's input, so that heads off a lot of issues. I have also been able to back my decisions with some reasoning. I will also admit quickly when I goofed up and will make certain the players receive as much attention as I can send their way. As a coach all you really can do is put players in a position to be successful, the rest is up to them.

 

I ended two players seasons early this year. When I was asked why, I explained it was a private matter between the players and myself. It didn't take long for everyone to know that one was because of grades thus reconfirming I was serious about academics. The second was I caught him cheating, again that reinforced a core value of the, well of everyone from the District to myself. Every parent I spoke to later told me if I every caught their child cheating to do the same, and the same with grades. I didn't need to make the kid an example. I treated him with respect.

 

The coaches that have problems are the ones that have not earned any credibility and who yell and humiliate their players. If the coach comes off as a bully and not a teacher, parents will jump in the protect their child, and they should. Kids make errors, even professionals do. Coaches have to teach them how to bounce back, not stand there and yell.

 

And specific to running laps, I really dislike coaches who use cardio exercises as punishment. Athletes should run to get better at their sport. My golf team hikes up a very steep hill with their bags at the end of every practice. Sometimes we will do two or three trips. I see other coaches using it as punishment. We walk and play very physically demanding courses. When we are hiking the hill, I'm right there with them carrying my bag, setting the example, getting their legs ready for 36 holes in one day tournaments.

 

People need to be careful what they use as punishment. I've had students that tell me they hate reading because it was always a punishment by their parents. No TV you have to read a book. You're grounded, go clean your room. What are we teaching kids?

[RockRaines]

Such a discrepancy between the outrage over "everyone gets a trophy and winning isnt important" and the behavior of the ridiculous amount of helicopter parents that exist today. Parents today are 1000 more involved in their kids lives and often are the main problem.

[greg775]

You have to build the trust with the parents first. You have to establish some credibility that you know what you are talking about. Then as long as you are looking out for the player's best interest parents will give you some leeway.

 

High school sports are a little different but parents are parents. I've always sought out parent's input, so that heads off a lot of issues. I have also been able to back my decisions with some reasoning. I will also admit quickly when I goofed up and will make certain the players receive as much attention as I can send their way. As a coach all you really can do is put players in a position to be successful, the rest is up to them.

 

I ended two players seasons early this year. When I was asked why, I explained it was a private matter between the players and myself. It didn't take long for everyone to know that one was because of grades thus reconfirming I was serious about academics. The second was I caught him cheating, again that reinforced a core value of the, well of everyone from the District to myself. Every parent I spoke to later told me if I every caught their child cheating to do the same, and the same with grades. I didn't need to make the kid an example. I treated him with respect.

 

The coaches that have problems are the ones that have not earned any credibility and who yell and humiliate their players. If the coach comes off as a bully and not a teacher, parents will jump in the protect their child, and they should. Kids make errors, even professionals do. Coaches have to teach them how to bounce back, not stand there and yell.

 

And specific to running laps, I really dislike coaches who use cardio exercises as punishment. Athletes should run to get better at their sport. My golf team hikes up a very steep hill with their bags at the end of every practice. Sometimes we will do two or three trips. I see other coaches using it as punishment. We walk and play very physically demanding courses. When we are hiking the hill, I'm right there with them carrying my bag, setting the example, getting their legs ready for 36 holes in one day tournaments.

 

People need to be careful what they use as punishment. I've had students that tell me they hate reading because it was always a punishment by their parents. No TV you have to read a book. You're grounded, go clean your room. What are we teaching kids?

 

Thanks, Tex. You make a lot of sense.

[greg775]

Such a discrepancy between the outrage over "everyone gets a trophy and winning isnt important" and the behavior of the ridiculous amount of helicopter parents that exist today. Parents today are 1000 more involved in their kids lives and often are the main problem.

 

What confuses me is the generation of kids whose parents never came to their sporting events turned into horrific helicopter parents themselves. My mom never saw one of my games in basketball or baseball. She never even asked me about the games except how we did. My dad went to one of our playoff games for some reason. He was shocked that our team was so good on defense. He told me nice game on defense but he didn't go to the next game. None of the kids cared. We liked the fact no parents went to our games. But these same people had kids and went to all their games screaming at umps, coaches, fellow parents, etc. Weird.

[Chisoxfn]

What confuses me is the generation of kids whose parents never came to their sporting events turned into horrific helicopter parents themselves. My mom never saw one of my games in basketball or baseball. She never even asked me about the games except how we did. My dad went to one of our playoff games for some reason. He was shocked that our team was so good on defense. He told me nice game on defense but he didn't go to the next game. None of the kids cared. We liked the fact no parents went to our games. But these same people had kids and went to all their games screaming at umps, coaches, fellow parents, etc. Weird.

Maybe most of the kids didn't like the fact that their parents didn't attend or cared? I don't know because my parents went to my sporting events when i was a kid. Their was only a handful of times at least one of my parents weren't at the games. Did they stay and watch practice, no, they dropped off and left (or if my sister was along, did something with her while I practiced). And by no means were my parents helicopter parents. I also don't know many people who didn't have parents attend. I rarely played in games where the stands weren't full (and it wasn't random people watching us play little league or AYSO...it was parents and/or grandparents).

 

Now if you are referring to high school, I'd say that would differ and parents would come a lot less often (but that was partly because of the time of day the games were played...no longer all that conducive to working parents).