White Sox make no trades at the deadline.

[Balta1701]

How do you know they weren't willing?

Did they trade Jeff Samardzija?

[asindc]

Did they trade Jeff Samardzija?

 

Of course not. Why do you ask?

 

[Balta1701]

Of course not. Why do you ask?

Then they weren't willing to trade Jeff Samardzija.

 

That's pretty straightforward to me.

[asindc]

Then they weren't willing to trade Jeff Samardzija.

 

That's pretty straightforward to me.

 

How does the fact that he wasn't traded indicate that they were unwilling to do so? Should we also assume that they were unwilling to trade LaRoche for Trout?

 

[CyAcosta41]

If speculation about what it would take for Upton or Cespedes match with the reality, then I'm as happy as can be that they made neither of those deals. Given how the White Sox are currently configured, both of these over-hyped rentals add little to the mix. If you're renting, then you need as sure fire of a difference maker as you can find. Both of these slump-prone sluggers are ... well, blah. Maybe, maybe you take them if someone is giving them away for dime-a-dozen prospects. But if you're dipping into the top prospect tier for a just now developing system for ... that ... then I'd see it as a horrible deal in concept (no matter how it actually turns out).

 

I'm surprised a Danks for Ethier deal couldn't work (or high-priced Danks for high-priced superfluous (to someone) offensive player. Seems tp be a classic win/win.

 

As for Jeff S., my hunch is they didn't receive anything near what Cueto or Hammels fetched. Not needing him themselves is one thing (and they do need him, plus he does bring a low-ish draft pick), but getting out of being perceived as a trading b*tch has value. You want the guy, then you have to pay something reasonably attractive for us. Otherwise, your loss. I have no interest in the Sox being the old KC Athletics to the modern equivalent of the 40s and 50s Yankees.

 

My thought is the reason they didn't trade Smardjiza is the returns weren't attractive. Q is as good as gone in the offseason. Essentially auction him off to all of baseball -- someone will get a no doubt about it Top 30-40 starter (plus a lefty who has been as consistent as any pitcher in years); the Sox should absolute expect to get the proverbial "haul." And they need that haul for sustained success.

Edited July 31, 2015 by CyAcosta41

[Chisoxfn]

How does the fact that he wasn't traded indicate that they were unwilling to do so? Should we also assume that they were unwilling to trade LaRoche for Trout?

Yeah, I am with you. Just cause he wasn't traded doesn't mean they weren't willing to trade him. I don't know that they were really listening and if they were, I presume it would have taken an overly strong offer to get him (vs. a normal offer) but just because someone isn't traded doesn't mean a team wasn't listening. If they didn't get an offer that made sense to KW / RH and that would be an offer that outweighs benefits of comp pick + continuing to give it a run with the current club, then they didn't pull the trigger.

 

We can say we'd have done things different but to clearly assume that is just absurd. Were the Pads never interested in moving Upton? They were, they just never got a price they felt was good enough. They might have been crazy cause they aren't near as close to the WC spot as we are, but they clearly in their eyes, didn't think the offer was worthwhile.

[Balta1701]

Yeah, I am with you. Just cause he wasn't traded doesn't mean they weren't willing to trade him. I don't know that they were really listening and if they were, I presume it would have taken an overly strong offer to get him (vs. a normal offer) but just because someone isn't traded doesn't mean a team wasn't listening. If they didn't get an offer that made sense to KW / RH and that would be an offer that outweighs benefits of comp pick + continuing to give it a run with the current club, then they didn't pull the trigger.

 

We can say we'd have done things different but to clearly assume that is just absurd. Were the Pads never interested in moving Upton? They were, they just never got a price they felt was good enough. They might have been crazy cause they aren't near as close to the WC spot as we are, but they clearly in their eyes, didn't think the offer was worthwhile.

The quotes in the Upton thread suggested that the Padres weren't really interested in moving their guys and still think they have a shot at competing for the WC.

 

"We need an overly strong offer to trade a guy" = to me "we're not willing to trade him". If you think you're in the race enough that you need "an overly strong offer" to trade a guy, then it's time to fill some lineup holes, like everyone else we're chasing did.

 

Stuck in the middle = "we're just not willing to move him".

[Baron]

All I know is Kenny must be pretty pissed right now. Forget Hahn and his apparent "frustration". We know Mr President is probably fuming right now.

[LDF]

The quotes in the Upton thread suggested that the Padres weren't really interested in moving their guys and still think they have a shot at competing for the WC.

 

"We need an overly strong offer to trade a guy" = to me "we're not willing to trade him". If you think you're in the race enough that you need "an overly strong offer" to trade a guy, then it's time to fill some lineup holes, like everyone else we're chasing did.

 

Stuck in the middle = "we're just not willing to move him".

 

could be, they didn't want to help anyone, and was asking for a "strong offer".

 

in other words, blow us away with a offer if not, we will that later.

[mmmmmbeeer]

I'm really surprised we stood pat. With that said, the returns on rentals, in many of these deals, have been ridiculous. Which makes me wonder why we didn't deal Shark? I find it hard to believe they weren't getting fair value offers. Could it be that Shark's agent tipped the Sox FO that dealing him will nix any chance of him re-signing in CHI in the offseason?

 

I don't know....the one thing I do know is that the FO is drunk if they think this team will make the playoffs. I think they'll keep it exciting but the offense will inevitably become an issue again.

[Flash Tizzle]

My thought is the reason they didn't trade Smardjiza is the returns weren't attractive. Q is as good as gone in the offseason. Essentially auction him off to all of baseball -- someone will get a no doubt about it Top 30-40 starter (plus a lefty who has been as consistent as any pitcher in years); the Sox should absolute expect to get the proverbial "haul." And they need that haul for sustained success.

 

I'm sure they'll be some collection of excuses to explain why this doesnt happen.

 

-With Shark gone and Johnson as his inevitable replacement, the White Sox cannot afford to lose another starting pitcher. Second year of the three year window!

 

- With the FA pitching market so strong and teams bringing in increased revenue through profit sharing and TV deals, long term deals can be afforded without having to give up prospects/and or young talent.

 

Prepare yourself, but while I agree trading Quintana should happen I'm sure it wont. That would be too inlike the White Sox to trade someone with high value

[southsider2k5]

And let's deal with some reality here. Logically a trade of Samardjiza should have been done if the returns offered were greater than the Comp pick we are looking at in 2016 if he signs else where. But the odds of the playoffs here that do matter to a fan base the team is constantly trying to convince to show up. I'd be willing to bet each writer in Chicago had a White Flag article ready to go if he was dealt, thus decimating any ticket sales for the rest of the year. Instead even the illusion of a chance at the playoffs can be used for some period of time to convince people that it is still OK to show up. If the team had been 1-7 instead of 7-1 on that road trip, that illusion wouldn't have been there. But they didn't and the idea, however small, is planted. The last few days are as excited as I have seen the bandwagon since the off-season. To a franchise that has to beg for fans like a nerd looking for a date on prom night, that has a value. With a more stable fan base, the team could have taken a more conservative approaching, knowing that people would have come back next year. The White Sox don't have that luxury. Much like a boy band, the window is short.

[Flash Tizzle]

Also the way people around here have been touting the Shark compensation pick as something of value, I really hope that player drafted becomes a ML contributer. Otherwise I just can't believe of all the deals we've seen so far for rentals, the White Sox couldnt get even ONE player of value? Absolute s*** and I fail to believe that. When other teams were given up two, three prospects for Price and Cueto we couldn't get even ONE Top 10 prospect (basically the equivalent of what youd hope for from a draft pick in the 40s). I'll guarantee the issue was we wanted ML level players capable of contributing right away, basically playing the three year window nonsense again.

[southsider2k5]

Also the way people around here have been touting the Shark compensation pick as something of value, I really hope that player drafted becomes a ML contributer. Otherwise I just can't believe of all the deals we've seen so far for rentals, the White Sox couldnt get even ONE player of value? Absolute s*** and I fail to believe that. When other teams were given up two, three prospects for Price and Cueto we couldn't get even ONE Top 10 prospect (basically the equivalent of what youd hope for from a draft pick in the 40s). I'll guarantee the issue was we wanted ML level players capable of contributing right away, basically playing the three year window nonsense again.

 

Comp pick is something like 25-30 now.

[Southwest Sider]

Selling some of your best prospects now for rentals or players who might even slump when you acquire them seems a bit shortsighted. I would have been onboard with Justin Upton, but not at the Padres asking price (whatever it was. We can reasonably assume that the asking price is the reason a deal didn't get done with the Padres and the rest of the teams). Upton is as prone to slumping as any player in the league. If you gave up Montas and Micah Johnson for him, just for an example, you'd feel rather silly giving up those assets for a player who might give you the same production out of RF that Avisail Garcia would. For assets like those, a sure upgrade is key, and rentals are only with you for too small of a sample size, that the production you want from them you can only hope to get in that small sample size, and you can only hope that the player hits one of his "highs" with you rather then one of his "lows". Countless times I have seen players traded for and performed at a mediocre level with their new team. Would anyone of us have traded for Melky Cabrera this year if he were a free agent afterwards before he started hitting? No. His terrible season would have been reason enough not to, and acquiring him would be a move based purely on hope of a return to form, at the cost of valuable prospects! Now, Upton hasn't had the same season as Melky, but like most players in the league, Upton is prone to slumping. You cannot acquire him and EXPECT that he will be an absolute upgrade over Avisail Garcia for the next two months only. You can only acquire him and hope that he performs up to his average standard, or better then Avisail Garcia. Would you have paid Montas and Micah Johnson for either of those hopes? If so, you are a bigger gambler then I.

 

This is the problem with rentals. It also is a unique situation for the Sox, as they are not practically guaranteed a playoff spot, in which case maybe it's easier to load up on some rentals to fortify your depth for the postseason. But in the position they are in, and if the rumor is true that Hahn was able to stop Kenny from making a bold move, I give Hahn a lot of credit. Frankly, I trust Hahn's viewpoint from the business side of things more then Kennys. Kenny makes deals based off of emotion and Upton and some of the names floated are big names. He has the wherewithal to stand losing those prospects. Rick Hahn is going to be more objective, perhaps offering a viewpoint similar to the one I outlined above. To him, Montas and Johnson (which, again, are names I made up entirely) are too valuable of assets to lose for something that potentially will not give you a large enough net gain. There is the offseason to think about, and Montas and Johnson could be valuable trading chips for assets that will give you a player for at least a whole season, where you can ride the highs and lows with him if necessary, rather then a rental.

 

As far as Jeff Samardzija is concerned, the Sox still have a shot at this thing, but trading him means you're giving up. Erik Johnson could come up and pitch really well, but that's something you're hoping for and if he doesn't, well then you're losing games you need to be winning. The Sox may have had an attractive offer for Shark, and maybe this is the battle that Kenny won, keeping him. You'll never know what was offered, but if it was just prospects a few years away, I'd rather keep him and take my chances on this year. You really aren't actually losing anything because the assets offered were never yours in the first place. Also, I don't think that trading Shark was as important to the franchise as some make it out to be. Yes, acquiring prospects is a good thing, but the future of the Sox didn't hinge on trading Shark. Unlike the Tigers, we aren't faced with a potentially bleak future, realizing it, and rushing to trade our rentals for whatever we can get. The Sox may not have the best farm system, but they can afford to go for it this year and not see long term ramifications... especially now that they haven't parted with some of our best prospects for a rental.

 

All in all I think the Sox have an OK chance at a wildcard. That's pretty good considering where we were at not long ago. No chance. Given the abrupt change of circumstances I think the Sox played this deadline well. Nice job, front office.

[GreenSox]

probably the correct decision.

 

Buying would have been flailing at the wind.

 

Didn't have much to sell except for Samardzija and perhaps some bullpen pitchers.

Edited July 31, 2015 by GreenSox

[OmarComing25]

I really don't think Samardzija would have gotten us much, he's a step down from Cueto/Price, a lot of buyers were off the market today, and the package for Kazmir was pretty blah, I'm not too disappointed if that was what we missed out on. I know the comp pick could very well end up being nothing but at least we're getting something out of it, I'm not really that convinced that the package we could have got for Jeff was >>> than the value of the comp pick. Also, I think Upton is very overrated and Cespedes would have required an Anderson or Montas, no thanks.

Edited July 31, 2015 by OmarComing25

[Baron]

The package for Kazmir was not blah at all.

 

I'm just wondering how much more time Rick Hahn is going to waist. I mean it may actually be a good thing he didnt go through with this trade. Looking at his lack of success so far. Hey maybe they'll decide to go all for a playoff spot before Chris Sale's contract ends.

 

If they want to keep dicking around then trade Sale and Q. Stop wasting everyone's time.

Edited July 31, 2015 by Baron

[Flash Tizzle]

And let's deal with some reality here. Logically a trade of Samardjiza should have been done if the returns offered were greater than the Comp pick we are looking at in 2016 if he signs else where. But the odds of the playoffs here that do matter to a fan base the team is constantly trying to convince to show up. I'd be willing to bet each writer in Chicago had a White Flag article ready to go if he was dealt, thus decimating any ticket sales for the rest of the year. Instead even the illusion of a chance at the playoffs can be used for some period of time to convince people that it is still OK to show up. If the team had been 1-7 instead of 7-1 on that road trip, that illusion wouldn't have been there. But they didn't and the idea, however small, is planted. The last few days are as excited as I have seen the bandwagon since the off-season. To a franchise that has to beg for fans like a nerd looking for a date on prom night, that has a value. With a more stable fan base, the team could have taken a more conservative approaching, knowing that people would have come back next year. The White Sox don't have that luxury. Much like a boy band, the window is short.

If trading with San Francisco in 1997 while several games behind Cleveland was the White Flag Trade, then what is it called when we're 3.5 games behind Minnesota for the Wild Card.......and do absolutely nothing to help a team offensively struggling? No one in the front office should care what the media or fans think of ANY deal which could help this team. They obviously didn't care enough about any of our opinions since they neither sold nor traded for anyone.

 

I honestly wish this team would go through a rebuilding period. Just so all the speculation, all the fears people have about the fan base being decimated and if Hahn/Williams are capable of building through the minor leagues would be answered. We'd atleast have something to draw from aside from years of rebuilding on the fly, nonsense. Or wondering if our window is open.

 

 

[LDF]

Also the way people around here have been touting the Shark compensation pick as something of value, I really hope that player drafted becomes a ML contributer. Otherwise I just can't believe of all the deals we've seen so far for rentals, the White Sox couldnt get even ONE player of value? Absolute s*** and I fail to believe that. When other teams were given up two, three prospects for Price and Cueto we couldn't get even ONE Top 10 prospect (basically the equivalent of what youd hope for from a draft pick in the 40s). I'll guarantee the issue was we wanted ML level players capable of contributing right away, basically playing the three year window nonsense again.

 

i agree you here. i really think they the FO had another brain storming session and the calmer head prevail.

 

they came late to the party. if they would have done it, lets say last week, they, the sox would have had that haul.

[LDF]

Selling some of your best prospects now for rentals or players who might even slump when you acquire them seems a bit shortsighted. I would have been onboard with Justin Upton, but not at the Padres asking price (whatever it was. We can reasonably assume that the asking price is the reason a deal didn't get done with the Padres and the rest of the teams). Upton is as prone to slumping as any player in the league. If you gave up Montas and Micah Johnson for him, just for an example, you'd feel rather silly giving up those assets for a player who might give you the same production out of RF that Avisail Garcia would. For assets like those, a sure upgrade is key, and rentals are only with you for too small of a sample size, that the production you want from them you can only hope to get in that small sample size, and you can only hope that the player hits one of his "highs" with you rather then one of his "lows". Countless times I have seen players traded for and performed at a mediocre level with their new team. Would anyone of us have traded for Melky Cabrera this year if he were a free agent afterwards before he started hitting? No. His terrible season would have been reason enough not to, and acquiring him would be a move based purely on hope of a return to form, at the cost of valuable prospects! Now, Upton hasn't had the same season as Melky, but like most players in the league, Upton is prone to slumping. You cannot acquire him and EXPECT that he will be an absolute upgrade over Avisail Garcia for the next two months only. You can only acquire him and hope that he performs up to his average standard, or better then Avisail Garcia. Would you have paid Montas and Micah Johnson for either of those hopes? If so, you are a bigger gambler then I.

 

This is the problem with rentals. It also is a unique situation for the Sox, as they are not practically guaranteed a playoff spot, in which case maybe it's easier to load up on some rentals to fortify your depth for the postseason. But in the position they are in, and if the rumor is true that Hahn was able to stop Kenny from making a bold move, I give Hahn a lot of credit. Frankly, I trust Hahn's viewpoint from the business side of things more then Kennys. Kenny makes deals based off of emotion and Upton and some of the names floated are big names. He has the wherewithal to stand losing those prospects. Rick Hahn is going to be more objective, perhaps offering a viewpoint similar to the one I outlined above. To him, Montas and Johnson (which, again, are names I made up entirely) are too valuable of assets to lose for something that potentially will not give you a large enough net gain. There is the offseason to think about, and Montas and Johnson could be valuable trading chips for assets that will give you a player for at least a whole season, where you can ride the highs and lows with him if necessary, rather then a rental.

 

As far as Jeff Samardzija is concerned, the Sox still have a shot at this thing, but trading him means you're giving up. Erik Johnson could come up and pitch really well, but that's something you're hoping for and if he doesn't, well then you're losing games you need to be winning. The Sox may have had an attractive offer for Shark, and maybe this is the battle that Kenny won, keeping him. You'll never know what was offered, but if it was just prospects a few years away, I'd rather keep him and take my chances on this year. You really aren't actually losing anything because the assets offered were never yours in the first place. Also, I don't think that trading Shark was as important to the franchise as some make it out to be. Yes, acquiring prospects is a good thing, but the future of the Sox didn't hinge on trading Shark. Unlike the Tigers, we aren't faced with a potentially bleak future, realizing it, and rushing to trade our rentals for whatever we can get. The Sox may not have the best farm system, but they can afford to go for it this year and not see long term ramifications... especially now that they haven't parted with some of our best prospects for a rental.

 

All in all I think the Sox have an OK chance at a wildcard. That's pretty good considering where we were at not long ago. No chance. Given the abrupt change of circumstances I think the Sox played this deadline well. Nice job, front office.

 

i do not have any inside info. but for this discussion i am going to say this.

 

since upton was not traded, i imagine the asking price for the rtn was prob huge. fulmer, jordan guerrero and montas. they need pitching.

Edited August 1, 2015 by LDF

[caulfield12]

And let's deal with some reality here. Logically a trade of Samardjiza should have been done if the returns offered were greater than the Comp pick we are looking at in 2016 if he signs else where. But the odds of the playoffs here that do matter to a fan base the team is constantly trying to convince to show up. I'd be willing to bet each writer in Chicago had a White Flag article ready to go if he was dealt, thus decimating any ticket sales for the rest of the year. Instead even the illusion of a chance at the playoffs can be used for some period of time to convince people that it is still OK to show up. If the team had been 1-7 instead of 7-1 on that road trip, that illusion wouldn't have been there. But they didn't and the idea, however small, is planted. The last few days are as excited as I have seen the bandwagon since the off-season. To a franchise that has to beg for fans like a nerd looking for a date on prom night, that has a value. With a more stable fan base, the team could have taken a more conservative approaching, knowing that people would have come back next year. The White Sox don't have that luxury. Much like a boy band, the window is short.

 

Fair enough, but everything's going to reset to "normal" for the last couple of seasons attendance-wise, except for fans of the Yankees and Cubs.

 

If they're more concerned about the PR consequences of trading Shark than they are about replacing C/3B/RF/DH/pitching depth, then that's a problem, because that kind of indecisiveness or paralysis by analysis will lead you to nowhere but mediocrity.

 

We were kind of like the equivalent of the Twins and Rays at the deadline...just meh.

 

At least the Cubs and Twins fans understand (intellectually) their teams got their into contention one year early...and that the odds are probably 25% at best of making the playoffs. On the other hand, Sox fans probably believed their chances were about 10% at best and the work of improving the team and contending for next season got all that much more difficult when there aren't any solutions at C/3B in the FA market.

 

They'll probably pick up a starter (definitely not Shark, and counting on E.Johnson and Danks and selling season tickets based on being in a competitiveness window is nuts if that's their approach) and someone to compete with Garcia, but it won't be a big addition like Heyward/Gordon/Cespedes or even Zobrist.

 

With a more stable fan base, the team could have taken a more conservative approaching, knowing that people would have come back next year. The White Sox don't have that luxury. Much like a boy band, the window is short.

 

And they just killed that window by standing in place and doing nothing. Either go with the KW bravado and try for the playoffs with veterans/big names or go with Hahn's long-term patience/building with younger players with potential approach by trading Samardzija for another version of Montas/Avi.

 

We got neither approach. Just more mediocrity, more sub .500 finishes. We're unlikely to see any more 50+ page game threads over the remainder of the season. The bandwagon will disappear as quickly as it formed.

Edited August 1, 2015 by caulfield12

[asindc]

Fair enough, but everything's going to reset to "normal" for the last couple of seasons attendance-wise, except for fans of the Yankees and Cubs.

 

If they're more concerned about the PR consequences of trading Shark than they are about replacing C/3B/RF/DH/pitching depth, then that's a problem, because that kind of indecisiveness or paralysis by analysis will lead you to nowhere but mediocrity.

 

We were kind of like the equivalent of the Twins and Rays at the deadline...just meh.

 

At least the Cubs and Twins fans understand (intellectually) their teams got their into contention one year early...and that the odds are probably 25% at best of making the playoffs. On the other hand, Sox fans probably believed their chances were about 10% at best and the work of improving the team and contending for next season got all that much more difficult when there aren't any solutions at C/3B in the FA market.

 

They'll probably pick up a starter (definitely not Shark, and counting on E.Johnson and Danks and selling season tickets based on being in a competitiveness window is nuts if that's their approach) and someone to compete with Garcia, but it won't be a big addition like Heyward/Gordon/Cespedes or even Zobrist.

 

With a more stable fan base, the team could have taken a more conservative approaching, knowing that people would have come back next year. The White Sox don't have that luxury. Much like a boy band, the window is short.

 

And just killed that window by standing in place and doing nothing. Either go with the KW bravado and try for the playoffs with veterans/big names or go with Hahn's long-term patience/building with younger players with potential approach by trading Samardzija for another version of Montas/Avi.

 

We got neither approach. Just more mediocrity, more sub .500 finishes. We're unlikely to see any more 50+ page game threads over the remainder of the season. The bandwagon will disappear as quickly as it formed.

 

I disagree. Trading to appease fans who want to "do something, anything!!!" is never the right move. If the right deal doesn't materialize, so be it.

Edited August 1, 2015 by asindc

[southsider2k5]

If trading with San Francisco in 1997 while several games behind Cleveland was the White Flag Trade, then what is it called when we're 3.5 games behind Minnesota for the Wild Card.......and do absolutely nothing to help a team offensively struggling? No one in the front office should care what the media or fans think of ANY deal which could help this team. They obviously didn't care enough about any of our opinions since they neither sold nor traded for anyone.

 

I honestly wish this team would go through a rebuilding period. Just so all the speculation, all the fears people have about the fan base being decimated and if Hahn/Williams are capable of building through the minor leagues would be answered. We'd atleast have something to draw from aside from years of rebuilding on the fly, nonsense. Or wondering if our window is open.

 

100% wrong. The fact that you referenced the White Flag trade is exactly why they didn't trade Jeff Samardjiza. Sox fans are STILL bringing that up after almost 20 years.

[caulfield12]

I disagree. Trading to appease fans who want to "do something, anything!!!" is never the right move. If the right deal doesn't materialize, so be it.

 

 

If that's the case, then the White Sox don't have to worry about bandwagon fans or excuses, they should just do what they think is best for the organization at all times.

 

That's not the theme we've heard for the last decade...that the White Sox can't afford to rebuild because the fanbase won't have the patience or tolerance to accept it.

 

And the problem with the rebuild approach is we didn't even follow that plan today.

 

 

The only other AL Central team who didn't do much in the last week has a better future (Twins), the Tigers added a lot of prospects/pieces, the Royals are still in a good position through 2017...the best we can argue is that we MIGHT be better off than the Indians at this point.

Edited August 1, 2015 by caulfield12