I find it interesting that the sort of "statistics aren't everything" crowd are pointing to another statistic, wins, as some sort of indicator of the type of thing statistics can't depict. The thing is that the win statistic is so far removed from what the pitcher can actually control that it is essentially meaningless. It is impossible to parse out whether or not a pitcher consistently gets screwed by things out of control or if he legitimately just melts down in crucial situations. A lack of wins will happen in both of those scenarios.

 

If you were to replace wins by saying something along he lines of scouting how the pitcher performs along with using the statistics for how he performs, I'd be able to go along with that argument.

 

That is the point of the discussion. Believe it or not the point of the game is to win. There really hasn't been much evidence to show that any of the stats really show how much a pitcher contributes to a win. I think the SIERA is the closest. But what is the true measure of a pitcher's effectiveness? Wins are part of the formula.

Just read an article saying Betts should be in a deal for Sale. Finally someone has some sense.

Just read an article saying Betts should be in a deal for Sale. Finally someone has some sense.

 

Much rather have Bradley and rather give up Q

Edited June 23, 20169 yr by SCCWS

Much rather have Bradley and rather give up Q

 

... why?

... why?

 

Bradley is left handed and is a better defensive CF. Offensively they are both 20-25 HR and .280+ hitters.

 

Bradley is left handed and is a better defensive CF. Offensively they are both 20-25 HR and .280+ hitters.

Betts is more of a 25-30 HR .300+ hitter.

Texas is in serious need of starting pitching. Lewis, Darvish, and Holland all on the DL. One of the few teams that have enough to trade for Sale. Need to have serious discussions with them.

 

Sale and Navarro For Profar, Gallo, Brinson, Luis Ortiz, Yenson Yrizarri SS ton of potential, Michael De Leon SS big international signing a year ago.

 

Getting a lot talent on the cusp and down the road.

Texas is in serious need of starting pitching. Lewis, Darvish, and Holland all on the DL. One of the few teams that have enough to trade for Sale. Need to have serious discussions with them.

 

Sale and Navarro For Profar, Gallo, Brinson, Luis Ortiz, Yenson Yrizarri SS ton of potential, Michael De Leon SS big international signing a year ago.

 

Getting a lot talent on the cusp and down the road.

No Dice. They'd have to start with Mazara, Profar and Gallo and add to that. Mazara would be an absolute must with any deal from TX. Not including Mazara? *click*

 

No Dice. They'd have to start with Mazara, Profar and Gallo and add to that. Mazara would be an absolute must with any deal from TX. Not including Mazara? *click*

Odor would have to be included as well IMO.

Profar was the #1 prospect 2 years ago. He's finally healthy and showing all his tools. They will never trade Mazara.

Now that I remembered that they had Dillon Tate, Mazara/Tate/Profar has to be the starting point for a Sale deal to TX. If I'm Hahn, They aren't getting Sale without giving up Mazara and Tate.

Edited June 23, 20169 yr by Elgin Slim

Profar was the #1 prospect 2 years ago. He's finally healthy and showing all his tools. They will never trade Mazara.

 

Yeah I think Odor/Profar and Gallo is a good start. And then probably 3 of their top 5 prospects.

Brinson and Gallo are Top 25 prospects. Gallo would be on your major league roster. This would also give you the chance to trade Todd Fraizer and get some more valuable young pieces. Brinson is an OF prospect with an enormous ceiling .

Your new infield would be:

3B-Gallo

SS-Anderson

2B- Profar 2B chance to flip flop Anderson and him position wise

1B -Abreu

 

Trade Frazier to the Mets for Plawecki/C and Nimmo/OF.

 

Nimmo becomes your new CF and putting back Eaton in RF where his defense was Gold Glove caliber. Plawecki gives you a high ceiling young Catcher. Team offensively becomes very credible for the future.

Yikes and here we go--a three-game winning streak that will now put a halt to any urgency for change.

 

Soon the announcement will come that we're "all in" for 2016. Sigh.

I wonder what kind of return we could get for Q instead?

Yeah I think Odor/Profar and Gallo is a good start. And then probably 3 of their top 5 prospects.

 

No interest in Gallo, he is a Matt Davidson clone.

 

Mazara, Profar, Matuella, Taveras, Tate and Josh Morgan.

 

Mazara is more expendable to them with Brinson waiting in the wings and they can use Gallo there to fill in until then.

 

 

For Sale to Texas, start with Odor.

Agree but to also say Quintana is on a par w Sale is also very shortsighted. They both have pitched on the same team and in the same home field for 5 years and Q is 3 below .500 and Sale is 27 +. Now Q's numbers are definitely affected because he gets terrible run support. But the other problem is we are not talking about a short sample here. We are in the fifth year of each being in the rotation. It may be un-explainable but for some reason the team does not perform behind Q. Put him on Boston and he may be better than Sale w their offense.

 

Also important to remember that Sale has this same offense to give him the same run support as Q and he's still 27 over. That's remarkable really.

Also important to remember that Sale has this same offense to give him the same run support as Q and he's still 27 over. That's remarkable really.

Just because they pitched for the same team doesn't mean they received the same run support. The offense is scoring almost 2 runs/game more for Sale than Quintana this year.

I think facing the Blue Jays with a decimated bullpen, a Twins team playing much better and out to avenge two sweeps and the Astros (best team in the AL the last month, along with Texas) will swing the pendulum firmly away from any more desperation additions.

I think facing the Blue Jays with a decimated bullpen, a Twins team playing much better and out to avenge two sweeps and the Astros (best team in the AL the last month, along with Texas) will swing the pendulum firmly away from any more desperation additions.

I hope so. I hope it pushes us to sell.

I think facing the Blue Jays with a decimated bullpen, a Twins team playing much better and out to avenge two sweeps and the Astros (best team in the AL the last month, along with Texas) will swing the pendulum firmly away from any more desperation additions.

 

Kenny Hahn supposedly made the Boston trip. I wonder what season saving insights and solutions are being brought back from his junket? Furthermore, is Kenny Hahn more a glass half full, or half empty kind of guy? And at what point does JR just say, "screw it, I'm too old for this s**t" ?

Edited June 23, 20169 yr by captain54

I think Q is a better guy to move at the deadline if we sell. I would wait until after the season with Sale unless someone is willing to overpay. If he turns in a Cy Young season you can trade him at the peak of his value in the offseason.

Just because they pitched for the same team doesn't mean they received the same run support. The offense is scoring almost 2 runs/game more for Sale than Quintana this year.

 

 

Agree. But we are not talking this season, we are talking 5 seasons. It is pretty strange with such a large sampling that with two talented guys, one guy wins and the other struggles around .500.