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QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Oct 4, 2016 -> 08:27 AM)
I'd like to argue this morning that a Frazier extension is a poor idea for the White Sox. Todd Frazier is a guy who I think is likely to be among the "fast dropoff" players. He is a guy with one strong plus tool - power. He has poor plate discipline overall - a strikeout rate above 20% and a walk rate only 8%, for his career. That means he's a guy who swings a lot, makes limited contact, but gets value when he makes contact because the ball goes far.

 

Last I checked, Frazier leads MLB regular 3rd base guys in strikeouts, and lowest BA..

 

The original plan was to have Frazier as the guy in the lineup to protect Abreu.. it didn't happen.. as far an extension, I think it depends on how the rest of the lineup shakes down.. despite the power, I don't see how Frazier fits into the 1-5 hole.. too many lost offensive opportunities in 16' without enough bonafide hitters 1-5

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QUOTE (captain54 @ Oct 4, 2016 -> 11:50 AM)
Last I checked, Frazier leads MLB regular 3rd base guys in strikeouts, and lowest BA..

 

The original plan was to have Frazier as the guy in the lineup to protect Abreu.. it didn't happen.. as far an extension, I think it depends on how the rest of the lineup shakes down.. despite the power, I don't see how Frazier fits into the 1-5 hole.. too many lost offensive opportunities in 16' without enough bonafide hitters 1-5

 

Frazier hit 40 homers, 21 doubles, and drove in 98 runs. How is that not a legit #4 or #5 hitter?

 

Another thing to consider is who plays 3B if Frazier is allowed to walk after next season. The Sox would have to address that before they parted ways with him.

 

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QUOTE (Black_Jack29 @ Oct 4, 2016 -> 11:56 AM)
Frazier hit 40 homers, 21 doubles, and drove in 98 runs. How is that not a legit #4 or #5 hitter?

 

Another thing to consider is who plays 3B if Frazier is allowed to walk after next season. The Sox would have to address that before they parted ways with him.

 

If the Sox though do go into a full rebuild mode it really won't matter for a few years anyway.

 

Mark

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QUOTE (Black_Jack29 @ Oct 4, 2016 -> 12:56 PM)
Frazier hit 40 homers, 21 doubles, and drove in 98 runs. How is that not a legit #4 or #5 hitter?

 

Another thing to consider is who plays 3B if Frazier is allowed to walk after next season. The Sox would have to address that before they parted ways with him.

I think that amount of doubles for him that early (9 first half?) is an anomoly also.

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QUOTE (Black_Jack29 @ Oct 4, 2016 -> 12:56 PM)
Frazier hit 40 homers, 21 doubles, and drove in 98 runs. How is that not a legit #4 or #5 hitter?

 

Another thing to consider is who plays 3B if Frazier is allowed to walk after next season. The Sox would have to address that before they parted ways with him.

 

In a rebuild? Davidson or sign and flip candidate (I will admit, I don't know if there are any out there).

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QUOTE (Black_Jack29 @ Oct 4, 2016 -> 12:56 PM)
Frazier hit 40 homers, 21 doubles, and drove in 98 runs. How is that not a legit #4 or #5 hitter?

 

Another thing to consider is who plays 3B if Frazier is allowed to walk after next season. The Sox would have to address that before they parted ways with him.

In my world where you recognize this is a dramatically undertalented team and unbelievably weak franchise, you trade Frazier for the best return you can get for him now, and you see if you get a 3b back in the deals where you trade Sale, Abreu, and/or Quintana.

 

If you do not get a 3b back, you don't worry about it - you take the best deals you can for those guys and your franchise is rebuilding. In that case, you look to the FA market. Set yourself a budget of maybe $5 million and target someone like Aaron Hill or Mark Reynolds - someone who fills the position for you but that you have nothing invested in. If they have a good first half you consider trading them at the deadline - if that adds some minor talent to your organization somewhere great, if it does not then you've limited your expenses.

 

Within a year or two, combining the young players returned from trades and your own draftees, you should begin having most of those positions filled with quality major leaguers. When you have taken your team from 6-7 starters filled by fringe major leaguers to 1-2 positions, then you go out and spend big in either trades or FA to fill those remaining positions and now you are loaded for bear.

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QUOTE (captain54 @ Oct 4, 2016 -> 12:50 PM)
Last I checked, Frazier leads MLB regular 3rd base guys in strikeouts, and lowest BA..

 

The original plan was to have Frazier as the guy in the lineup to protect Abreu.. it didn't happen.. as far an extension, I think it depends on how the rest of the lineup shakes down.. despite the power, I don't see how Frazier fits into the 1-5 hole.. too many lost offensive opportunities in 16' without enough bonafide hitters 1-5

 

Last I checked he was also 2nd in home runs and 7th in RBIs.

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QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Oct 4, 2016 -> 01:20 PM)
In my world where you recognize this is a dramatically undertalented team and unbelievably weak franchise, you trade Frazier for the best return you can get for him now, and you see if you get a 3b back in the deals where you trade Sale, Abreu, and/or Quintana.

 

If you do not get a 3b back, you don't worry about it - you take the best deals you can for those guys and your franchise is rebuilding. In that case, you look to the FA market. Set yourself a budget of maybe $5 million and target someone like Aaron Hill or Mark Reynolds - someone who fills the position for you but that you have nothing invested in. If they have a good first half you consider trading them at the deadline - if that adds some minor talent to your organization somewhere great, if it does not then you've limited your expenses.

 

Within a year or two, combining the young players returned from trades and your own draftees, you should begin having most of those positions filled with quality major leaguers. When you have taken your team from 6-7 starters filled by fringe major leaguers to 1-2 positions, then you go out and spend big in either trades or FA to fill those remaining positions and now you are loaded for bear.

The goal while rebuilding is flipping vets for prospects. So ya, sign a Hill, Reynolds or Valencia and hope for the best.

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QUOTE (lasttriptotulsa @ Oct 4, 2016 -> 01:23 PM)
Last I checked he was also 2nd in home runs and 7th in RBIs.

 

So what? still not a good 1-5 hitter...

 

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QUOTE (captain54 @ Oct 4, 2016 -> 12:37 PM)
So what? still not a good 1-5 hitter...

 

Based on what criteria?

 

My criteria for constructing a lineup are: 1-3 hitters get on base (OBP of .330 or higher) and the 3-5 hitters ideally hit 50+ extra-base hits per season (high SLG). Based on that, my 1-5 lineup for the Sox this season would've been...

 

1. Eaton

2. Melky

3. Abreu

4. Frazier

5. Morneau

 

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QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Oct 4, 2016 -> 12:20 PM)
In my world where you recognize this is a dramatically undertalented team and unbelievably weak franchise, you trade Frazier for the best return you can get for him now, and you see if you get a 3b back in the deals where you trade Sale, Abreu, and/or Quintana.

 

If you do not get a 3b back, you don't worry about it - you take the best deals you can for those guys and your franchise is rebuilding. In that case, you look to the FA market. Set yourself a budget of maybe $5 million and target someone like Aaron Hill or Mark Reynolds - someone who fills the position for you but that you have nothing invested in. If they have a good first half you consider trading them at the deadline - if that adds some minor talent to your organization somewhere great, if it does not then you've limited your expenses.

 

Within a year or two, combining the young players returned from trades and your own draftees, you should begin having most of those positions filled with quality major leaguers. When you have taken your team from 6-7 starters filled by fringe major leaguers to 1-2 positions, then you go out and spend big in either trades or FA to fill those remaining positions and now you are loaded for bear.

 

If the Sox can get a budding 3B star via trade this winter, I wouldn't have a problem with that. But it would have to be a very highly-regarded 3B prospect, as I don't see anybody in their farm system that they can fall back on. The Sox have had a ton of difficulty filling this position since Crede and it would be bad for them to go down that road again.

 

My major caveat is that I expect the Sox to get ML-ready or near-ML-ready prospects to fill positions of need in return for somebody like Sale. That would mean that they're competitive by 2019, in which case Frazier would still be close enough to his prime to be useful in that lineup.

Edited by Black_Jack29

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Or they just go with Davidson/Sanchez/Lawrie/Saladino for 3b/2b in 2017 and hope for Trey M. to have a breakout season in AA/AAA.

 

Likely scenario, not really....especially that second part.

 

Skeptical about Frazier having the patience to wait for another long rebuild after how things ended for him and Cincy.

Edited by caulfield12

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QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Oct 4, 2016 -> 02:23 PM)
Or they just go with Davidson/Sanchez/Lawrie/Saladino for 3b/2b in 2017 and hope for Trey M. to have a breakout season in AA/AAA.

 

Likely scenario, not really....especially that second part.

 

Skeptical about Frazier having the patience to wait for another long rebuild after how things ended for him and Cincy.

 

Frazier wanted to stay in Cincy and sign an extension.

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QUOTE (captain54 @ Oct 4, 2016 -> 01:37 PM)
So what? still not a good 1-5 hitter...

 

He's pretty much the definition of a 4-5 hitter. Those are your power guys. If they one thing he does well is put the ball out of the ballpark, why would you put him at the bottom thus limiting his chances to do so? You lose roughly 17-19 plate appearance every spot you drop someone in the order over the course of the year.

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QUOTE (Black_Jack29 @ Oct 4, 2016 -> 01:49 PM)
Based on what criteria?

 

My criteria for constructing a lineup are: 1-3 hitters get on base (OBP of .330 or higher) and the 3-5 hitters ideally hit 50+ extra-base hits per season (high SLG). Based on that, my 1-5 lineup for the Sox this season would've been...

 

1. Eaton

2. Melky

3. Abreu

4. Frazier

5. Morneau

 

Higher percentage of your #4 whiffing with the bases loaded, then hitting a grand slam. With this lineup

 

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QUOTE (lasttriptotulsa @ Oct 4, 2016 -> 02:29 PM)
He's pretty much the definition of a 4-5 hitter. Those are your power guys. If they one thing he does well is put the ball out of the ballpark, why would you put him at the bottom thus limiting his chances to do so? You lose roughly 17-19 plate appearance every spot you drop someone in the order over the course of the year.

 

I'm glad you and I aren't responsible for making out the lineup, but I've had my fill of watching Frazier strike out with a man on third and less than two, thank you

 

However, the reality is he will probably hit 1-5 if he's still on the Sox in '17

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QUOTE (captain54 @ Oct 4, 2016 -> 02:29 PM)
I'm glad you and I aren't responsible for making out the lineup, but I've had my fill of watching Frazier strike out with a man on third and less than two, thank you

 

However, the reality is he will probably hit 1-5 if he's still on the Sox in '17

 

Years ago, I had my fill of watching Paul Konerko ground into inning-ending double plays. That doesn't mean that his presence in the #3 and #4 spots wasn't justified.

Edited by Black_Jack29

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QUOTE (captain54 @ Oct 4, 2016 -> 01:50 PM)
Last I checked, Frazier leads MLB regular 3rd base guys in strikeouts, and lowest BA..

 

The original plan was to have Frazier as the guy in the lineup to protect Abreu.. it didn't happen.. as far an extension, I think it depends on how the rest of the lineup shakes down.. despite the power, I don't see how Frazier fits into the 1-5 hole.. too many lost offensive opportunities in 16' without enough bonafide hitters 1-5

 

Tonight the Jays and O's will play in the wildcard game. Check out Trumbo( 4th) for O's and Russel Martin(5th) for Jays. They strike out the same rate as Frazier.

 

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QUOTE (Black_Jack29 @ Oct 4, 2016 -> 01:53 PM)
If the Sox can get a budding 3B star via trade this winter, I wouldn't have a problem with that. But it would have to be a very highly-regarded 3B prospect, as I don't see anybody in their farm system that they can fall back on. The Sox have had a ton of difficulty filling this position since Crede and it would be bad for them to go down that road again.

 

My major caveat is that I expect the Sox to get ML-ready or near-ML-ready prospects to fill positions of need in return for somebody like Sale. That would mean that they're competitive by 2019, in which case Frazier would still be close enough to his prime to be useful in that lineup.

 

Devers is the guy they should target. He should be ready by 2018. Then if they still want Frazier they can sign him to be a 1B and move Abreu's bad defense to DH. Devers fills the hole at 3B and Benintendi can take over CF which keeps Eaton's ++ defense in RF.

Edited by soxforlife05

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QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Oct 4, 2016 -> 02:36 PM)
Frazier hit .169 with RISP and .202 with men on base and still drove in 98. You have to figure a bit of a bounce back next season.

 

I really think he'll bounce back. Now, he's not hitting .330 or anything but I could see him back around .260-.280 and 5-10 more doubles. His double total was really freaking low the first half. The key to this lineup was Abreu's struggles. He was much better the second half and should be fine to start next season. But I'm hoping they do a complete rebuild and ship all of these players out and have a ton of young promising prospects.

 

Don't sleep on NYY. They're going to be all over Sale. Joel Sherman kept writing about it around the trade deadline. They're a very splashy franchise and getting Sale would be right up their alley. Now, if they're involved then so will Boston. That's our best hope is to get those two to bid against each other.

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QUOTE (Dunt @ Oct 3, 2016 -> 03:54 PM)
I see this being the case too and it makes the most sense. I think they try to spin him to Boston for a package like Moncada, Benintendi, Swihart, and something in hope of plugging a couple holes while staying competitive.

Yeah, Boston is NEVER going to make that deal.

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QUOTE (soxforlife05 @ Oct 4, 2016 -> 06:26 PM)
Devers is the guy they should target. He should be ready by 2018. Then if they still want Frazier they can sign him to be a 1B and move Abreu's bad defense to DH. Devers fills the hole at 3B and Benintendi can take over CF which keeps Eaton's ++ defense in RF.

 

I said earlier a trade of Sale to Boston for Benintendi, Kopeck, Devers, Vazquez, and one more probably does it for me. I really want Moncada but I'm not sure they do it. Now I do wonder if CWS stick to wanting Betts or Bradley in the deal and expand the trade to include Melky to help the loss of one of those two. It's going to be fun debating and creating mocks for these trades. Or I at least have fun with these. I could see a mega deal involving Sale, Melky and Robertson (to help dump his contract combined with Kimbrel's struggles) for JBJ, Moncada or Benintendi, Kopeck, Devers, Vasquez, Rodriguez, Swihart. That's crazy but I could see a mega deal like that happening if Boston fizzles in the playoffs and I hope they do.

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QUOTE (SouthSideSale @ Oct 4, 2016 -> 07:16 PM)
I said earlier a trade of Sale to Boston for Benintendi, Kopeck, Devers, Vazquez, and one more probably does it for me. I really want Moncada but I'm not sure they do it. Now I do wonder if CWS stick to wanting Betts or Bradley in the deal and expand the trade to include Melky to help the loss of one of those two. It's going to be fun debating and creating mocks for these trades. Or I at least have fun with these. I could see a mega deal involving Sale, Melky and Robertson (to help dump his contract combined with Kimbrel's struggles) for JBJ, Moncada or Benintendi, Kopeck, Devers, Vasquez, Rodriguez, Swihart. That's crazy but I could see a mega deal like that happening if Boston fizzles in the playoffs and I hope they do.

 

I can get on board with that. I would probably ask for the first deal minus Vazquez and plus Moncada but potentially settle for something like what you have listed. That fills two huge holes (CF and 3B) that would be extremely difficult to fill within the organization at this time. I guess you take the great framing and defense with Vazquez and hope he figures how to hit with 2-3 years of being the every day catcher. Collins would be the backup plan for catcher and I'm sure we could find him another position if Vazquez worked out (try him in LF early in his career and later at 1B/DH if Abreu leaves after his contract).

Edited by soxforlife05

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QUOTE (SouthSideSale @ Oct 4, 2016 -> 07:09 PM)
I really think he'll bounce back. Now, he's not hitting .330 or anything but I could see him back around .260-.280 and 5-10 more doubles. His double total was really freaking low the first half. The key to this lineup was Abreu's struggles. He was much better the second half and should be fine to start next season. But I'm hoping they do a complete rebuild and ship all of these players out and have a ton of young promising prospects.

 

Don't sleep on NYY. They're going to be all over Sale. Joel Sherman kept writing about it around the trade deadline. They're a very splashy franchise and getting Sale would be right up their alley. Now, if they're involved then so will Boston. That's our best hope is to get those two to bid against each other.

 

The Yankees being involved in a Sale deal will be the best thing that could ever happen to the Sox if a Sale deal is going to happen. Either we will clean off their top prospect list, or we get Boston to push in a couple of guys they don't want to in order to top the Yankees. It is a win-win.

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