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jaws7575

Why was Dunning pulled after 15 pitches?

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10 minutes ago, Tomtom said:

As it turned out, Crochet was not hurt.  RR took him out because his velocity was down a couple of MPH.  I say if He said he was OK, I'd let him keep going.  He struck out the only two batters he faced, so the lower velocity wasn't hurting him.  I would have like to see Crochet fight to stay in the game.

Velocity being down 4 MPH is a sign of being hurt. 

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2 minutes ago, SonofaRoache said:

Velocity being down 4 MPH is a sign of being hurt. 

Not if he was trying to pace himself to go longer

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16 minutes ago, fathom said:

Not if he was trying to pace himself to go longer

You really think that was the case and the forearm tightness reports we got were bogus ? Do you really think Crochet pitching a few MPH less wouldn't have been discussed beforehand ?

Edited by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

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26 minutes ago, fathom said:

Not if he was trying to pace himself to go longer

Yeah, but if he was pacing himself, the coaches would have known and wouldn't have taken him out of the game. The fact that they took him out of the game after lower velocity shows that he was, in fact hurt. 

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14 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

You really think that was the case and the forearm tightness reports we got were bogus ? Do you really think Crochet pitching a few MPH less wouldn't have been discussed beforehand ?

Even if it weren't discussed beforehand and he just pitched with less heat, he would have mentioned this during the mound visit. 

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15 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

You really think that was the case and the forearm tightness reports we got were bogus ? Do you really think Crochet pitching a few MPH less wouldn't have been discussed beforehand ?

I agree, just saying I don’t believe Crochet when he was saying he was fine. It wasn’t just the dip they were concerned about.

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3 minutes ago, fathom said:

I agree, just saying I don’t believe Crochet when he was saying he was fine. It wasn’t just the dip they were concerned about.

Hey I gave you credit in my recent post of  the pitching and game plan analysis for alerting me in the game thread that LaStella had a bit of a history for getting Catchers Interference calls. Since it was during the game I wasn't prepared to look it up then and see what you were talking about. I don't think anyone  said anything at the time in the game thread asking what you meant.  So kudos for that tip.

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19 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

You really think that was the case and the forearm tightness reports we got were bogus ? Do you really think Crochet pitching a few MPH less wouldn't have been discussed beforehand ?

At the end of the day, all Garrett has to say is something about soreness or tightness in his arm, and that is probably enough to stop him from pitching.  It doesn't have to be "hurt" in a traditional sense of having an actual pull or strain.  When it comes to this arm, and the fact that he is brand new to the organization, they are going to be overly cautious with him. They don't have a history where they might know that tightness for Crochet is indeed tightness and nothing to worry about. 

I mean at the end of the day he could well be hurt, but for the Sox, they are going to bend over backwards if they even suspect that something *might* or could possibly, be wrong. 

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5 hours ago, Dick Allen said:

The Big Hurt said warming a guy up the second Dunning gave up 1 hit did two very bad things. It ruined Dunning's confidence, and it hurt the rest of the team's confidence. If the plan is to use 8 or 9 guys, chances are there are going to be a couple, if not more, that don't have it that day. You can't be afraid of 1 run in the first inning.

If the plan was to use Crochet for a few innings early, why didn't they start him? 

Bingo

everyone saying pulling dunning wasnt a mistake are flat out wrong, and so wrong its mind boggling.  First off dunning WAS NOT pitching bad.  Seriously, go back and watch the 15 pitches he threw.  Second, if youre going to have that short a leash with an opener, dont open with the one guy in the pen that can give you the most innings.  Absolutely stupid bullpen management by rickey

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1 minute ago, southsider2k5 said:

At the end of the day, all Garrett has to say is something about soreness or tightness in his arm, and that is probably enough to stop him from pitching.  It doesn't have to be "hurt" in a traditional sense of having an actual pull or strain.  When it comes to this arm, and the fact that he is brand new to the organization, they are going to be overly cautious with him. They don't have a history where they might know that tightness for Crochet is indeed tightness and nothing to worry about. 

I mean at the end of the day he could well be hurt, but for the Sox, they are going to bend over backwards if they even suspect that something *might* or could possibly, be wrong. 

You are correct. Preaching to the choir Monsignor.

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5 minutes ago, fathom said:

I agree, just saying I don’t believe Crochet when he was saying he was fine. It wasn’t just the dip they were concerned about.

Why would he say that?   What does it benefit him to say that he is fine and nothing is wrong?  Wishful thinking on his part? 

I am thinking there was a lack of miscommunication and he was pitching like he did earlier this year when he was starter.  He knows himself better than the White Sox at this point and my guess...if he is not injured....was that he had scaled it back to the TN days trying to go 2.1 innings and Renteria and Cooper were being overly cautious and not trusting him.  I am not certain there is fault there as they as a staff have worked with him for two weeks and he is as green as a player can get.  

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4 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Hey I gave you credit in my recent post of  the pitching and game plan analysis for alerting me in the game thread that LaStella had a bit of a history for getting Catchers Interference calls. Since it was during the game I wasn't prepared to look it up then and see what you were talking about. I don't think anyone  said anything at the time in the game thread asking what you meant.  So kudos for that tip.

Appreciate it, drove me nuts when rooting against the Cubs

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Yeah I don't think I'll ever really understand this move... If we were going to pull him so quickly why didn't we just start the game with someone we were really confident in?  I also was mad when they gave Bummer they yank so quick. This was a very strange way to manage a game.

Didn't Matt Foster start a game? I know he had a bad game, but I thought it would have made more sense to go with someone like him in advance of the game.

All that being said... if your best guys are going to walk a ton of guys that's not really on Ricky.

But alas...

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17 minutes ago, ChiSox1917 said:

Bingo

everyone saying pulling dunning wasnt a mistake are flat out wrong, and so wrong its mind boggling.  First off dunning WAS NOT pitching bad.  Seriously, go back and watch the 15 pitches he threw.  Second, if youre going to have that short a leash with an opener, dont open with the one guy in the pen that can give you the most innings.  Absolutely stupid bullpen management by rickey

I guess I'm flat out wrong then according to you. Just because you think he wasn't pitching bad doesn't mean he wasn't. 4 hitters 2 hits . That's a .500 opposition batting average. That's bad. He also hung one pitch and missed his spots a couple times. He knew the plan going in. He knew he could be pulled early. That's just how it works in a do or die game. Should he have stayed in and given up a 3 run HR just to convince you he was pitching bad. Did his previous 2 starts not convince you that maybe the short leash was warranted ? The plan was to get some innings from him but scoreless innings hopefully or at the very least a scoreless 1st inning.. He didn't help himself by giving up 2 hits in 4 batters. How did this hurt the SOx more than the Crochet injury ? Do Heuer or Foster do any better ? You tell me who should ve started and how it would ve been better ?  What's that ? You can't ? Why not ? Oh yea you're just a fan without a crystal ball that sees how things would've gone in an alternate universe 2nd guessing a decision that led to the Sox having a 72.4% win probability after Laureano struck out in the bottom of the 4th.

Edited by CaliSoxFanViaSWside
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"Sox having a 72.4% win probability after Laureano struck out in the bottom of the 4th. "

 

Which is bulshit given the fact that 5 innings were left against a team that was starting to hit in their home ballpark and Crochet and Bummer were already used.

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11 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

I guess I'm flat out wrong then according to you. Just because you think he wasn't pitching bad doesn't mean he wasn't. 4 hitters 2 hits . That's a .500 opposition batting average. That's bad. He also hung one pitch and missed his spots a couple times. He knew the plan going in. He knew he could be pulled early. That's just how it works in a do or die game. Should he have stayed in and given up a 3 run HR just to convince you he was pitching bad. Did his previous 2 starts not convince you that maybe the short leash was warranted ? The plan was to get some innings from him but scoreless innings hopefully. He didn't help himself by giving up 2 hits in 4 batters. How did this hurt the SOx more than the Crochet injury ? Do Heuer or Foster do any better ? You tell me who should ve started and how it would ve been better ?  What's that ? You can't ? Why not ? Oh yea you're just a fan without a crystal ball that sees how things would've gone in an alternate universe 2nd guessing a decision that led to the Sox having a 72.4% win probability after Laureano struck out in the bottom of the 4th.

Yes, you are wrong.  Reading your thought process post was like taking a look into the mind of a panicked little league coach.  Managing the game in the first inning as if its a 1 run game with the guy on the mound that can eat the most innings for you is flat out stupid and frankly inexcusable.

As for how dunning was pitching, he was not missing his spots by much, and as stated earlier, 13 of his 14 first pitches were either right on or barely off the edges of the strike zone.  Thats pretty damn good command.  Two soft hits in a sample size of 4 batters is nothing.  Sometimes guys get hits on good pitches (la stella).  All pitchers get into jams in a game from time to time, even when theyre pitching well.  Dunnings stuff was moving and he was living right on the edges of the zone.  If a manager sees that, he needs to give him a couple innings, not pull him after throwing his first bad pitch.  
 

im also not second guessing anything.  Was screaming at the tv when rickey was coming out to take him out.  Only nerds whove never played baseball think that what rickey did was a good move

Edited by ChiSox1917
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2 minutes ago, ChiSox1917 said:

Yes, you are wrong.  Reading your thought process post was like taking a look into the mind of a panicked little league coach.  Managing the game in the first inning as if its a 1 run game with the guy on the mound that can eat the most innings for you is flat out stupid and frankly inexcusable.

As for how dunning was pitching, he was not missing his spots by much, and as stated earlier, 13 of his 14 first pitches were either right on or barely off the edges of the strike zone.  Thats pretty damn good command.  Two soft hits in a sample size of 4 batters is nothing.  Sometimes guys get hits on good pitches (la stella).  All pitchers get into jams in a game from time to time, even when theyre pitching well.  Dunnings stuff was moving and he was living right on the edges of the zone.  If a manager sees that, he needs to give him a couple innings, not pull him after throwing his first bad pitch.  
 

im also not second guessing anything.  Was screaming at the tv when rickey was coming out to take him out.  Only nerds whove never played baseball think that what rickey did was a good move

And this is when we all knew the argument failed.

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1 minute ago, ChiSox1917 said:

Ok rickey

When you need resort to about half a dozen insults to make up for a lack of substance, the explanation is clear.

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6 hours ago, ChiSox59 said:

The Rodon IBB was also a bad call. I think he preferred Rodon not having to throw another pitch and was confident Foster could get out of it (he had been so good all year), but it was head scratcher in hindsight. Maybe cost them the game. Problem is, no IBB there and Rodon has to face that batter. In hindsight it’s easy to say that was the right call - and I think it was - but I can at least understand RR logic. In real-time I didn’t hate it. 

He HAD to do it to meet the 3 batter minimum. Period. 

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Just now, southsider2k5 said:

When you need resort to about half a dozen insults to make up for a lack of substance, the explanation is clear.

You should go back and read my post rather than trying to be cute with your responses thinking theyre clever

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It was the plan before the game started. I can almost guarantee it wasn’t RRs plan. Lots of smart people agreed with the plan. This is not RRs fault for following the plan.

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11 minutes ago, ChiSox1917 said:

Yes, you are wrong.  Reading your thought process post was like taking a look into the mind of a panicked little league coach.  Managing the game in the first inning as if its a 1 run game with the guy on the mound that can eat the most innings for you is flat out stupid and frankly inexcusable.

As for how dunning was pitching, he was not missing his spots by much, and as stated earlier, 13 of his 14 first pitches were either right on or barely off the edges of the strike zone.  Thats pretty damn good command.  Two soft hits in a sample size of 4 batters is nothing.  Sometimes guys get hits on good pitches (la stella).  All pitchers get into jams in a game from time to time, even when theyre pitching well.  Dunnings stuff was moving and he was living right on the edges of the zone.  If a manager sees that, he needs to give him a couple innings, not pull him after throwing his first bad pitch.  
 

im also not second guessing anything.  Was screaming at the tv when rickey was coming out to take him out.  Only nerds whove never played baseball think that what rickey did was a good move

 

2 minutes ago, ChiSox1917 said:

You should go back and read my post rather than trying to be cute with your responses thinking theyre clever

Maybe you should?

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15 minutes ago, tray said:

"Sox having a 72.4% win probability after Laureano struck out in the bottom of the 4th. "

 

Which is bulshit given the fact that 5 innings were left against a team that was starting to hit in their home ballpark and Crochet and Bummer were already used.

Hey tray thats what the odds said and the odds are based on solid info about having a 3 run lead at that time in the game.Could you have predicted Heuer, Foster and Marshall all with undrer 3.00 ERA would all be terrible ? Did you predict the Crochet injury ?

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25 minutes ago, ChiSox1917 said:

Yes, you are wrong.  Reading your thought process post was like taking a look into the mind of a panicked little league coach.  Managing the game in the first inning as if its a 1 run game with the guy on the mound that can eat the most innings for you is flat out stupid and frankly inexcusable.

As for how dunning was pitching, he was not missing his spots by much, and as stated earlier, 13 of his 14 first pitches were either right on or barely off the edges of the strike zone.  Thats pretty damn good command.  Two soft hits in a sample size of 4 batters is nothing.  Sometimes guys get hits on good pitches (la stella).  All pitchers get into jams in a game from time to time, even when theyre pitching well.  Dunnings stuff was moving and he was living right on the edges of the zone.  If a manager sees that, he needs to give him a couple innings, not pull him after throwing his first bad pitch.  
 

im also not second guessing anything.  Was screaming at the tv when rickey was coming out to take him out.  Only nerds whove never played baseball think that what rickey did was a good move

While I agree that Dunning got an unnecessarily early hook and that it probably cost them the game, you're coming off as very grumpy here.

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