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Chicago White Sox

Mazara and Right Field Thread

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1 hour ago, The Hawk said:

 My point on Moncada was tongue in cheek. Mazara was before this silly season, an average major league right fielder offensively and defensively. NO question that Moncada is the better major league player. But, they both got sick and their performance slipped greatly. Its not like they have gotten old and can't rebound. They both are young. As for buying similar expectations on the free agent market, I kind of doubt it. I think that $4.5-5.5M is pretty reasonable.

  

Actually that isn't true. Before this season Mazara was a bad defensive RF and a barely below average hitter. The hope was he would have a break out year, and not a breakdown. 

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9 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Actually that isn't true. Before this season Mazara was a bad defensive RF and a barely below average hitter. The hope was he would have a break out year, and not a breakdown. 

And I'm not sure strep throat caused him the power outage. Timing and lack of practice may have been a factor. The bottom line is, I think they try to get better in RF. 

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2 hours ago, The Hawk said:

 My point on Moncada was tongue in cheek. Mazara was before this silly season, an average major league right fielder offensively and defensively. NO question that Moncada is the better major league player. But, they both got sick and their performance slipped greatly. Its not like they have gotten old and can't rebound. They both are young. As for buying similar expectations on the free agent market, I kind of doubt it. I think that $4.5-5.5M is pretty reasonable.

  

The difference is, Mazara was already at a point of his team giving up on him before COVID hit him and his performance slipped. The Sox need to find something better.

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1 hour ago, The Hawk said:

We will see. When they brought Mazara in it wasn't to be a world beater. Just better than the mess that they had in 2019. Then their guy got sick. I look at it this way. I liken what happened with Mazara to signing him and having him break his leg right out of the gate. They get no production out of him. Is it his fault that he broke his leg? Probably not, right? This, to me, is the same kind of thing. What I liked about Mazara was that he battled through what he was obviously going through. He started to go to left field and just make contact. HE made adjustments and played a decent right field through it all.

   That being said, he's going to have to prove himself. Maybe as someone has suggested, they sign him to an incentive laden contract where he can recoup whatever money he would lose if they didn't tender him. Baseball is a tough business and this is part of it. I just think that he deserves a second chance. He is still very young.

They didn’t their 2nd round pick for him expecting to be the same replacement level guy he had been with the Rangers.  They thought they were getting a guy with untapped potential. That didn’t materialize last season, Mazara is now in the last year of team control, and the team is ready to win.  The time to take a chance on a project like Nomar was last year or honestly two seasons ago.  There really is no logic in bringing him back as things stand.

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6 hours ago, southsider2k5 said:

Actually that isn't true. Before this season Mazara was a bad defensive RF and a barely below average hitter. The hope was he would have a break out year, and not a breakdown. 

 

     He was never a bad defensive RF. He can run and cover the gaps okay and has a very strong arm. He also was an over-all average offensive player who averaged 20 Home runs per season despite being platooned a bit. And at his young age, many thought that he'd have an upside including myself. 

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5 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

They didn’t their 2nd round pick for him expecting to be the same replacement level guy he had been with the Rangers.  They thought they were getting a guy with untapped potential. That didn’t materialize last season, Mazara is now in the last year of team control, and the team is ready to win.  The time to take a chance on a project like Nomar was last year or honestly two seasons ago.  There really is no logic in bringing him back as things stand.

 We will see because neither of our votes count and right field is not a critical need for this team no matter what they choose to do. I say that his illness was the reason why he had the season that he did because there really is no plausible reason why a guy loses his ability to hit for power like he did unless it is physical somehow. Not at his age anyway.

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16 minutes ago, The Hawk said:

 We will see because neither of our votes count and right field is not a critical need for this team no matter what they choose to do. I say that his illness was the reason why he had the season that he did because there really is no plausible reason why a guy loses his ability to hit for power like he did unless it is physical somehow. Not at his age anyway.

Of course his illness was the reason for his dreadful season, but he was never good before then and there is no absolutely reason to give him another look when he’s in his last season of team control.  And RF is mostly definite a critical need, even if we ultimately accept a lesser option there in order to prioritize pitching.

Edited by Chicago White Sox

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23 minutes ago, The Hawk said:

 

     He was never a bad defensive RF. He can run and cover the gaps okay and has a very strong arm. He also was an over-all average offensive player who averaged 20 Home runs per season despite being platooned a bit. And at his young age, many thought that he'd have an upside including myself. 

He was always a poor defensive RF. In 2019, poor defensive OFs like Reddick graded out better than him. Fangraphs and DRS both graded him out as poor in every season of his career - well below average. So if you're going to draw a difference between "well below average" and "bad", good luck with that.

He has also never once been an average RF offensively. That's why he was never once an average starter in the big leagues despite 20 HR per season. His career OBP was .320 coming into this season and that's just blah at that position. He was a poor guy to trade for in the first place and giving up anything for him, let alone a recent 2nd round pick, was a classic Rick Hahn overpay. Regardless of whether or not his season this year was COVID destroyed, he's not getting offered arbitration next year and a team that wants to match up with the Dodgers shouldn't go into the season with a gaping hole like Mazara slotted into RF.

If you don't have the money to sign both a RF and a strong starting pitcher (and probably some bullpen help), then you have to start making trades for veterans (and God Help Us All if Rick Hahn is doing that).

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37 minutes ago, The Hawk said:

 

     He was never a bad defensive RF. He can run and cover the gaps okay and has a very strong arm. He also was an over-all average offensive player who averaged 20 Home runs per season despite being platooned a bit. And at his young age, many thought that he'd have an upside including myself. 

Hes put up negative fielding numbers every year of his career. 

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15 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

He was always a poor defensive RF. In 2019, poor defensive OFs like Reddick graded out better than him. Fangraphs and DRS both graded him out as poor in every season of his career - well below average. So if you're going to draw a difference between "well below average" and "bad", good luck with that.

He has also never once been an average RF offensively. That's why he was never once an average starter in the big leagues despite 20 HR per season. His career OBP was .320 coming into this season and that's just blah at that position. He was a poor guy to trade for in the first place and giving up anything for him, let alone a recent 2nd round pick, was a classic Rick Hahn overpay. Regardless of whether or not his season this year was COVID destroyed, he's not getting offered arbitration next year and a team that wants to match up with the Dodgers shouldn't go into the season with a gaping hole like Mazara slotted into RF.

If you don't have the money to sign both a RF and a strong starting pitcher (and probably some bullpen help), then you have to start making trades for veterans (and God Help Us All if Rick Hahn is doing that).

 

     I just flat disagree with you about Mazara being a poor defensive outfielder. He covers the gap and has a strong and accurate arm. I care less what Fangraphs and DRS have to say. As for OBP, I don't think that it is the definitive measure of a player's offensive worth. This kid came into the league very young and averaged 20 home runs a season along with solid RBI numbers. That outfielder that they gave up was no certainty either of ever being major league worthy.

   We will see what they do with Mazara and right field. My bet is that they will platoon Engel and him next season. How the money is going to get decided in filing the position doesn't concern me. I don't see the Sox having a "gaping hole" in right field in any way. I think that Mazara will rebound. Its just a guess but I think that both he and Moncada were physically impaired last year and that this year will be different.

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15 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Of course his illness was the reason for his dreadful season, but he was never good before then and there is no absolutely reason to give him another look when he’s in his last season of team control.  And RF is mostly definite a critical need, even if we ultimately accept a lesser option there in order to prioritize pitching.

How many outfielders do you think there have been who have averaged 20 HRs in their career by the age of 26 years old. Hell, some outfielders don't even break into baseball by age 25 or 26. I'd say that it is worth giving him another look. Its not like that they are paying him a lot of money in terms of what the going rate is for power hitting outfielders 

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47 minutes ago, The Hawk said:

 

     I just flat disagree with you about Mazara being a poor defensive outfielder. He covers the gap and has a strong and accurate arm. I care less what Fangraphs and DRS have to say. As for OBP, I don't think that it is the definitive measure of a player's offensive worth. This kid came into the league very young and averaged 20 home runs a season along with solid RBI numbers. That outfielder that they gave up was no certainty either of ever being major league worthy.

Couple things:

1. Are you related to Mazara? I ask this because overall, he kinda sucks. 

2. With respect to the  bolded, if you don't like DRS, look at the Inside Edge numbers. Mazara gets to exactly NONE of the "unlikely" chances (10% - 40% types). This illustrates that he has no range. His arm is mediocre as well.

3. In sum, he's a poor-fielding corner OF who needs a platoon partner, a defensive sub late in games, and a pinch runner. There are plenty of players with fewer flaws that are available for less money.

Edited by Two-Gun Pete
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31 minutes ago, The Hawk said:

How many outfielders do you think there have been who have averaged 20 HRs in their career by the age of 26 years old. Hell, some outfielders don't even break into baseball by age 25 or 26. I'd say that it is worth giving him another look. Its not like that they are paying him a lot of money in terms of what the going rate is for power hitting outfielders 

Why are you evaluating a guy on one metric and ignoring every other data point?  Also, the Rangers’ stadium was a pretty favorable hitters parks which obviously aided those numbers.

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7 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Why are you evaluating a guy on one metric and ignoring every other data point?  Also, the Rangers’ stadium was a pretty favorable hitters parks which obviously aided those numbers.

His road and home stats those years were very similar. 

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On 10/24/2020 at 5:10 AM, poppysox said:

Throwing strikes has been a problem for many Sox pitchers.  Hope the new guy has an answer to this problem.

I agree. A kid who I think may surprise a lot of Sox fans and advance quickly and ahead of the higher draft picks is the Steiver kid. I saw him in 2019 and someone really made a good change in his delivery it appears at their Shaumberg facility because his stride is now straight toward the plate and everything follows correctly. This is what I have been yelling about this year about Cease and what he does, especially with his fast ball. What I like about Steiver is also that he throws everything with the same release point and he has some good "giddiup" on his two seam fastball.

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16 minutes ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

Couple things:

1. Are you related to Mazara? I ask this because overall, he kinda sucks. 

2. With respect to the  bolded, if you don't like DRS, look at the Inside Edge numbers. Mazara gets to exactly NONE of the "unlikely" chances (10% - 40% types). This illustrates that he has no range. His arm is mediocre as well.

3. In sum, he's a poor-fielding corner OF who needs a platoon partner, a defensive sub late in games, and a pinch runner. There are plenty of players with fewer flaws that are available for less money.

   Funny stuff. Nope. I'm not related to Mazara:) I literally do not pay any attention to defensive statistics regarding outfielders. Infielders, I do. But with outfielders, NOPE. THose stats are for geeks. Also, I literally watched 95% of the White Sox pre-season and regular season and play-off games this year and I think that I understand who is and isn't a good outfielder. To me, Mazara is an average defensive outfielder. He runs with long strides and covers the gaps fine. He also must give way to a guy in Robert who starts calling for the ball as soon as it gets hit just about all of the time:)

   I get it. You hate Mazara. Probably never wanted the Sox to trade for him in the first place. And since he got sick and never produced to what he was before he got sick, this just further amplifies your quest to get rid of him. Its all good. Neither of our opinions mean a thing and they will do what they will do. I think that he will get another chance because he got sick. We wouldn't be even having this conversation if Mazara would have put up the same average numbers he put up before.

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52 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Why are you evaluating a guy on one metric and ignoring every other data point?  Also, the Rangers’ stadium was a pretty favorable hitters parks which obviously aided those numbers.

Ever see some of Mazara's home runs? He hits them "FAR". If you guys want to research outfield and hitting data points, more power to you. I watch the player himself and make my own assessment. IF all things were equal and Mazara didn't get Strep Throat and lose weight and strength, do you think that he wouldn't have hit somewhere in the area of 20 home runs last year in a regular season. If you do, I'd have to disagree with you based on our ball park and better line-up than the Rangers had.

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1 hour ago, The Hawk said:

   Funny stuff. Nope. I'm not related to Mazara:) I literally do not pay any attention to defensive statistics regarding outfielders. Infielders, I do. But with outfielders, NOPE. THose stats are for geeks. Also, I literally watched 95% of the White Sox pre-season and regular season and play-off games this year and I think that I understand who is and isn't a good outfielder. To me, Mazara is an average defensive outfielder. He runs with long strides and covers the gaps fine. He also must give way to a guy in Robert who starts calling for the ball as soon as it gets hit just about all of the time:)

   I get it. You hate Mazara. Probably never wanted the Sox to trade for him in the first place. And since he got sick and never produced to what he was before he got sick, this just further amplifies your quest to get rid of him. Its all good. Neither of our opinions mean a thing and they will do what they will do. I think that he will get another chance because he got sick. We wouldn't be even having this conversation if Mazara would have put up the same average numbers he put up before.

Dude, I'm glad you don't take my joking personally. 

But, your argument is the equivalent of:

1. Fangraphs is wrong,

2. DRS is wrong,

3. INSIDE Edge is wrong. 

The Hawk's Magnificent Eye Test, and ONLY The Hawk's Magnificent Eye Test matters.

Look, if there was only one source that shows that Mazara sucks, that would be one thing. But when you willfully ignore PILES of evidence,  you become the MLB fan equivalent of antivaxxers or COVID hoaxers.

 

Also, no one "hates" Mazara, thats a cop-out. When the overwhelming majority of evidence says he sucks, it probably means that he sucks.

Edited by Two-Gun Pete

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I just don't want to see the Sox go down the path they've gone before with guys like Beckham and Viciedo, starting a player long after it's become obvious he isn't a starting-caliber player. If the Sox want to be taken seriously as competitors, they can't keep hoping and praying that some guy with 2000 MLB PA is suddenly going to figure it all out. 

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1 hour ago, The Hawk said:

Ever see some of Mazara's home runs? He hits them "FAR". If you guys want to research outfield and hitting data points, more power to you. I watch the player himself and make my own assessment. IF all things were equal and Mazara didn't get Strep Throat and lose weight and strength, do you think that he wouldn't have hit somewhere in the area of 20 home runs last year in a regular season. If you do, I'd have to disagree with you based on our ball park and better line-up than the Rangers had.

Probably, but my point is even with 20 HRs he has been a below average hitter in his career so who cares?

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1 hour ago, The Hawk said:

   Funny stuff. Nope. I'm not related to Mazara:) I literally do not pay any attention to defensive statistics regarding outfielders. Infielders, I do. But with outfielders, NOPE. Hose stats are for geeks. Also, I literally watched 95% of the White Sox pre-season and regular season and play-off games this year and I think that I understand who is and isn't a good outfielder. To me, Mazara is an average defensive outfielder. He runs with long strides and covers the gaps fine. He also must give way to a guy in Robert who starts calling for the ball as soon as it gets hit just about all of the time:)

   I get it. You hate Mazara. Probably never wanted the Sox to trade for him in the first place. And since he got sick and never produced to what he was before he got sick, this just further amplifies your quest to get rid of him. Its all good. Neither of our opinions mean a thing and they will do what they will do. I think that he will get another chance because he got sick. We wouldn't be even having this conversation if Mazara would have put up the same average numbers he put up before.

I don't want to be paying Mazara 6 million for what we have seen, but like you, it won't bother me to see him play when healthy.  When we don't pick up his option...he should be available on a 3 million type of deal.  His defense was satisfactory and he was coming around with the bat.  As you point out...Moncada didn't look so well last year either.  Both guys recovering and obviously weakened considerably.  If we pour every extra dime into pitching (both starting & relief) that will suit me just fine.  There are no right fielders available that strike me as can't miss for moderate money...and Engel seems to contribute whenever he gets a chance to play.  Times like now I am glad we don't have Harper.  Plenty of money to go get the Bauer's of the World.

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59 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Probably, but my point is even with 20 HRs he has been a below average hitter in his career so who cares?

Nope. One year in his short career he hit 20 HRs and drove in over 100 RBIs. IN 2019, out of about 35 guys in the Al who played right field at all, only 7 hit more home runs(19)  or drove in more runs than he did( 68). And he hit .268 which was better than 2/3rds of them did. The guy was a legit all around right fielder. He did have some trouble with left handed pitchers and did get platooned a bit. So what?  lot of young players have that done in their early careers.

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3 minutes ago, The Hawk said:

Nope. One year in his short career he hit 20 HRs and drove in over 100 RBIs. IN 2019, out of about 35 guys in the Al who played right field at all, only 7 hit more home runs(19)  or drove in more runs than he did( 68). And he hit .268 which was better than 2/3rds of them did. The guy was a legit all around right fielder. He did have some trouble with left handed pitchers and did get platooned a bit. So what?  lot of young players have that done in their early careers.

And yet he posted a 94 wRC+ which means he was a below average hitter.  I don’t know what to tell you other than Mazara has never been good.

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1 hour ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

Dude, I'm glad you don't take my joking personally. 

But, your argument is the equivalent of:

1. Fangraphs is wrong,

2. DRS is wrong,

3. INSIDE Edge is wrong. 

The Hawk's Magnificent Eye Test, and ONLY The Hawk's Magnificent Eye Test matters.

Look, if there was only one source that shows that Mazara sucks, that would be one thing. But when you willfully ignore PILES of evidence,  you become the MLB fan equivalent of antivaxxers or COVID hoaxers.

 

Also, no one "hates" Mazara, thats a cop-out. When the overwhelming majority of evidence says he sucks, it probably means that he sucks.

 

     I told you. I do not care a whit about defensive stats for outfielders. If you want to give them credence go for it. To begin with, stats do not even begin to be able to measure the ground which an outfielder has to cover typically, the kind of shifts that his team employs, the ability of his center fielder, etc. This takes watching the player which in this case I do a lot of.  With infielders it is different. There, defensive stats do matter but even there you need to take some of them with a grain of salt based on the way the team positions its defensive players. 

     In his four previous years in baseball, Mazara was beyond any doubt a decent average major league right fielder all around. Not a star but average. He averaged 20 home runs and about 75 RBIs a season while hitting in the .260s. That is decent production for anyone let alone a 26 year old player with 4 years of major league baseball under his belt. You say he sucks. I say that you are wrong. As far as being anti-vaxx or Covid hoaxing, you're probably wrong about that also.

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