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White Sox Acquire Nick Swisher from Athletics

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QUOTE(BearSox @ Jan 5, 2008 -> 10:56 PM)
Oh wow, they had similar stats. OMG, wow, that is amazing... I don't give a s***. Petit is a nice guy to have in the rotation and someone I can see being a no. 3, but DLS was much more raw and put up those stats with only 2 pitches. With good coaching and the addition of a changeup, DLS will be an ace. Plain and simple. He has close to the best stuff in all of the minors.

And I suppose you watch him pitch on a daily basis to make this assumption that he has the best stuff in minors and that you know all the other minor league pitchers, give me a break.

 

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I don't care, make fun of me all you want. People called me crazy a couple years ago for wanting Teahan over Crede, we all saw how that turned out... granted it was on a different board.

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QUOTE(BearSox @ Jan 5, 2008 -> 10:16 PM)
I don't care, make fun of me all you want. People called me crazy a couple years ago for wanting Teahan over Crede, we all saw how that turned out... granted it was on a different board.

You have a 50% chance of being right about any transaction. Even ones that never happen. This is a deal that needs to be evaluated in a couple of years.

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QUOTE(SoxFan1 @ Jan 5, 2008 -> 02:26 AM)
Not to be interrogating or anything, buy just curious, how much of DLS have you actually seen? I've only seen him in the ML ASG...

I just want my question answered. Yeesh.

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QUOTE(SoxFan1 @ Jan 5, 2008 -> 11:52 PM)
I just want my question answered. Yeesh.

Taken from TalkBears:

QUOTE(BearSox @ Jan 5, 2008 -> 12:17 AM)
I saw DLS in that summer minor league all-star game, I forget the name of it, and DLS has pure nasty stuff.

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QUOTE(RME JICO @ Jan 6, 2008 -> 02:09 AM)
Taken from TalkBears:

So from 1 inning of work, in which he struck out 2, walked 1, and gave up a HR, we've concluded he has some of the nastiest stuff in all of baseball and is a future ace...hmmm.

 

Quick note: just from memory off the top of my head, Franklin Morales was the best pitcher in that game.

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QUOTE(SoxFan1 @ Jan 6, 2008 -> 01:20 AM)
Quick note: just from memory off the top of my head, Franklin Morales was the best pitcher in that game.

 

Was one of my favorite spects. His stuff is really good.

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QUOTE(SoxFan1 @ Jan 6, 2008 -> 01:20 AM)
So from 1 inning of work, in which he struck out 2, walked 1, and gave up a HR, we've concluded he has some of the nastiest stuff in all of baseball and is a future ace...hmmm.

 

Quick note: just from memory off the top of my head, Franklin Morales was the best pitcher in that game.

 

It doesn't take much to see if someone has a live arm or not, and De Los Santos' had the livest arm at the game.

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QUOTE(BearSox @ Jan 6, 2008 -> 01:55 AM)
It doesn't take much to see if someone has a live arm or not, and De Los Santos' had the livest arm at the game.

 

A live arm is not the forecast of future success. The minor leagues are filled with electric arms. I have a stinking suspicion that scouting reports, and working the count were not high on the list for the exhibition game that you watched. It was more of see fastball, hit fastball hard swing for the fence. On the pitchers side it was throw fastball as hard as you can, and impress hard contigent of GMs and scouts in attendance. No matter how great his live arm is, major leaguers can hit anyones fastball. All you need to do is to look at Verlander and Zumaya. We can hit their electric stuff pretty well.

 

DLS needs a tertiary pitch. If he develops it, it will help him become a major league starter. If he fails, he will become a bullpen guy. Now eventually he will face some guys who will hit him. How he reacts to that, makes adjustments and develops is what will determine what he will become. Now I like DLS and I like Gio. But as a fan of this team, projecting anything out of one of our prospects is funny. My big b**** with this trade is not what we got back, Swisher will rake here its where our system is at the moment and how it can impact future moves. This move in a vacuum is fine. This move made with some of the previous moves, including Uribe and others is a bit puzzling. Its kind of hard to see what is behind the curtin. Now if we move Konerko and Crede and Uribe things start to feel better in the long run. I may not agree with all of Kenny's moves, but for what its worth. He is trying something. At least it will be better than watching last years team.

Edited by southsideirish71

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Just on your post there SSI71, on your point about projecting anything about our prospects, I agree that over the years our prospects certainly haven't delivered.

 

But I think eventually, as you've said we're going to have to let some of these young guys come up from our system and play. We can't keep signing FA's, and then trade for other prospects or young guys from opposing teams more than 80% of the time. And we've had a couple e.g B-Mac etc. over the years, but we need more than that. I guess that's why I was just so hesitant to include DLS in any deal. Yes he's raw, and he's only 2 pitches, but this guy could have ended up being the best prospect we've ever had to come up and dominate (if everything pans out for him).

 

But having a better system mainly comes with better drafting, and we obviously need to improve that.

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QUOTE(Heads22 @ Jan 5, 2008 -> 06:50 PM)
What are you talking about? That post was probably the first time I mentioned ZIPS at all. I've never mentioned one word about its credibility, just that it had a pretty optimistic prediction about a guy who was in AA last year.

There was a post the other day not from you but wa stating ZIPS projections for the 2008 White Sox. It was pretty ugly. I wasn't going after you, but the board in general takes projections with a grain of salt if they are bad, but gospel if they are good.

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QUOTE(BearSox @ Jan 5, 2008 -> 10:56 PM)
Oh wow, they had similar stats. OMG, wow, that is amazing... I don't give a s***. Petit is a nice guy to have in the rotation and someone I can see being a no. 3, but DLS was much more raw and put up those stats with only 2 pitches. With good coaching and the addition of a changeup, DLS will be an ace. Plain and simple. He has close to the best stuff in all of the minors.

 

FDLSINAA

 

FWIW, I've never seen such an outrageous argument from anyone else on the board. Most aces have 4 good pitches, control of them, composure on the mound, and durability. DLS has 2 good pitches, who knows about how well he can control them, and there's no idea of his composure nor durability. To suggest that a pitcher has "close to the best stuff in all of the minors" when it is admitted earlier in the post that he has "only two pitches," you begin to understand how ridiculous the argument is to begin with. DLS has years and years of work to do before he becomes anything near an ace.

 

He looks more like Francisco Rodriguez than Pedro Martinez right now, and both of those are huge stretches to begin with.

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QUOTE(witesoxfan @ Jan 6, 2008 -> 02:18 PM)
FDLSINAA

 

FWIW, I've never seen such an outrageous argument from anyone else on the board. Most aces have 4 good pitches, control of them, composure on the mound, and durability. DLS has 2 good pitches, who knows about how well he can control them, and there's no idea of his composure nor durability. To suggest that a pitcher has "close to the best stuff in all of the minors" when it is admitted earlier in the post that he has "only two pitches," you begin to understand how ridiculous the argument is to begin with. DLS has years and years of work to do before he becomes anything near an ace.

 

He looks more like Francisco Rodriguez than Pedro Martinez right now, and both of those are huge stretches to begin with.

 

bringin the old "INAA" out of the closet. LOL.

 

I hear that Sweeney has the livest swing in the whole wide world. Series

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QUOTE(kyyle23 @ Jan 6, 2008 -> 02:43 PM)
bringin the old "INAA" out of the closet. LOL.

 

I hear that Sweeney has the livest swing in the whole wide world. Series

It seems ripping Sweeney is the thing to do now. I really don't understand. The guy has a beautiful swing and has been hurt. Granted his numbers were dissappointing in 2007, but he's only 22. Josh Fields gets so much love on this board, when he was 22 he hit .250 with 16 homers in AA.

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QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Jan 6, 2008 -> 06:10 PM)
It seems ripping Sweeney is the thing to do now. I really don't understand. The guy has a beautiful swing and has been hurt. Granted his numbers were dissappointing in 2007, but he's only 22. Josh Fields gets so much love on this board, when he was 22 he hit .250 with 16 homers in AA.

Not just on this board, Sweeney has basically made the rounds of several MiLB scouting reports as being Mr. 5 o'clock, a guy who hits in BP but cant hit like that in games. I always like Sweeney's swing and his hitting approach. I think he will still end up being a nice MLB player some day if he hits like he can, if not, hes a 4th OF'er bumping around the league.

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QUOTE(RockRaines @ Jan 6, 2008 -> 06:16 PM)
Not just on this board, Sweeney has basically made the rounds of several MiLB scouting reports as being Mr. 5 o'clock, a guy who hits in BP but cant hit like that in games. I always like Sweeney's swing and his hitting approach. I think he will still end up being a nice MLB player some day if he hits like he can, if not, hes a 4th OF'er bumping around the league.

You read too much Keith Law. :D

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QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Jan 6, 2008 -> 06:10 PM)
It seems ripping Sweeney is the thing to do now. I really don't understand. The guy has a beautiful swing and has been hurt. Granted his numbers were dissappointing in 2007, but he's only 22. Josh Fields gets so much love on this board, when he was 22 he hit .250 with 16 homers in AA.

 

I didnt really rip ryan Sweeney. I dont have a problem with him, i really liked him as a prospect and think he has nice future in Baseball. I was more pointing out BearSox' evaluation of all minor league prospects with his super keen eye and skills at pointing out which prospect will succeed and which will fail.

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QUOTE(kyyle23 @ Jan 6, 2008 -> 06:39 PM)
I didnt really rip ryan Sweeney. I dont have a problem with him, i really liked him as a prospect and think he has nice future in Baseball. I was more pointing out BearSox' evaluation of all minor league prospects with his super keen eye and skills at pointing out which prospect will succeed and which will fail.

I could be wrong, I've been wrong before... but I've also been right. If I am totally 100% wrong about this whole thing, I will fess up and admit it. But I just don't think I am and I have a feeling about DLS and Sweeney that will really make us regret this. I didn't know predictions were not allowed.

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QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Jan 6, 2008 -> 06:23 PM)
You read too much Keith Law. :D

Ha, I saw he regurgitated that POV in his chat.

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QUOTE(BearSox @ Jan 6, 2008 -> 06:41 PM)
I could be wrong, I've been wrong before... but I've also been right. If I am totally 100% wrong about this whole thing, I will fess up and admit it. But I just don't think I am and I have a feeling about DLS and Sweeney that will really make us regret this. I didn't know predictions were not allowed.

It would be pretty hard for us to regret this trade. DLS would have to shed his 2 pitch arsenal and would have to end up being better than a BP arm which alot of scouts think he is destined to be. At the same time Gio must be a contributing member of the Oakland A's for the next several years, and better than league avg, at the same time Sweeney must produce more than a reserve OF'er. All of that has to happen to offset the production of Swisher until 2012 and possibly beyond, or Swisher + any draft picks he brings us when he leaves.

 

If they all perform like many scouts who review our minor league system envision, Sweeney will be a 4th Of'er hitting for basically zero power, Gio would be a #3 or #4 starter, and DLS has the ability to be a serviceable to dominant major league closer. That may make them more valuable than a middle of the order hitting entering his prime on sheer volume alone, but it would be a very close contest.

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Or Sweeney could become a Rusty Greer type of hitter (.300 with 15-20HR's a season), Gio becomes a #2 starter, and DLS becomes an ace by developing his change-up in the next season or 2 in the minors.

 

It's impossible to project what these young guys are going to do.

 

Who knew that after Brian Anderson hit over .300 in 2005 at Charlotte, he would hit close to .200 for the White Sox in 2006? Who knew that Josh Fields would hit over 20 HR's in 2007 in the majors?

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QUOTE(DBAH0 @ Jan 6, 2008 -> 07:04 PM)
Or Sweeney could become a Rusty Greer type of hitter (.300 with 15-20HR's a season), Gio becomes a #2 starter, and DLS becomes an ace by developing his change-up in the next season or 2 in the minors.

 

It's impossible to project what these young guys are going to do.

 

Who knew that after Brian Anderson hit over .300 in 2005 at Charlotte, he would hit close to .200 for the White Sox in 2006? Who knew that Josh Fields would hit over 20 HR's in 2007 in the majors?

Exactly. Of course in prospects generally they do not reach their ceilings, so the PROBABILITY of not producing at that level is greater. Which at this point makes it a good trade, and MOST LIKEY will continue to be a good trade.

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I loved Gio and think he will be the best of the bunch but I also loved Robert Valido and thought he would be awesome (at least by next year...I don't think that's happening).

 

But I doubt I will regret this trade because I still don't regret the Chris Young trade. I think Vasquez is better for this team and would take a starting pitcher of his caliber (if he continues to pitch like he did last season) at the reasonable salary rather than have a 30/30 CF. And I'm being serious. You have to trade something to get something. Nick Swisher gives us what we need, has a nice contract and is still very young.

 

Nick Swisher doesn't just make us better in 2008, he makes us better in 2009 and 2010, when the guys that we traded for him might or might not be ready. In the meantime, we can either have a competitive team or trade big names for prospects and retool via the draft with our revamped scouting. For all those that talk about rebuilding...when do we actually try to start winning? I think Kenny has made us a lot younger in MLB ready players over the past two seasons and I think that can help make it more palatable to watch the Sox rather than what we dealt with in the late '80s, pulling for Ivan Calderon, Baines and Guillen to carry this franchise.

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I didn't realize this until now, but Swisher is below average-average hitter vs. righties for his career, but he feasts on lefties... I guess the lefty part is good, but it's night and day with him when it comes to as a lefty or righty.

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