fire walker

[JohnCangelosi]

I'm f***ing glad that Greg Walker is there at 8 am every day, I'm sure he and Pierre take turns picking up the donuts for everyone, but just because you're there early and work harder than everyone else doesn't make FAILURE disappear.

 

In fact, it makes you look worse.

The proof is in the pudding with this offense, it speaks for itself. Walker needs to go.

[Cali]

So, Ozzie, if nothing is working, perhaps a change is in order?

[greg775]

The proof is in the pudding with this offense, it speaks for itself. Walker needs to go.

 

He's right.

The facts say bye bye.

[LVSoxFan]

When it gets to the point where opposing pitchers are talking about how the Sox just hack away at everything, as I read recently, I think it's safe to say the entire approach is an epic fail.

[Dick Allen]

What would the realistic expection for improvement be if Walker were to be replaced? I just find some of the argument laughable. Yesterday someone said Walker tells them to take fastballs down the middle, then said it was Walker's fault when they "just miss" cookies. If a guy can't hit a "cookie" no one is going to make him a major league hitter.

 

Go through the line up.

AJ is hitting about .290 with limited power. Who will get him to improve.

Konerko having a MVP type season. A new hitting coach makes him Albert Pujols?

Beckham-struggling. His swing has to get shorter, and I think it will, but many of the same people who will blame Walker for his struggles are already calling him a bust and want to dump him.

Ramirez, doing what he always does which was a lot better than most scouts thought when the Sox signed him.

Morel-no power, doesn't get on base, but a rookie, may improve.

Pierre, nearing the end of the line. Always streaky, a new hitting coach will make him better?

Rios- total headcase. Toronto happily dumped him. Sucked for the Sox except for first half of 2010 when he was outstanding. Seems to not care. Is pinning his lack of success on Walker fair?

Quentin-doing a lot better than a lot of people calling for Walker's head thought he would do.

Dunn-easily the worst power hitter in baseball so far this season. Thought he may be out of it with a single that I'm sure if you asked the RF, he would have told you he should have caught, and an obviously wind aided HR Monday night. He's back to looking horrible. Does a new voice turn him around? I don't see how a hitting coach could have that much negative effect on a player, especially if he's well liked and respected like Walker is.

 

 

 

 

I just look at the teams that people mention fire coaches and don't see a huge jump in performance afterward. I think we should be concentrating the blame on the players rather than a hitting coach.

[caulfield12]

What would the realistic expection for improvement be if Walker were to be replaced? I just find some of the argument laughable. Yesterday someone said Walker tells them to take fastballs down the middle, then said it was Walker's fault when they "just miss" cookies. If a guy can't hit a "cookie" no one is going to make him a major league hitter.

 

Go through the line up.

AJ is hitting about .290 with limited power. Who will get him to improve.

Konerko having a MVP type season. A new hitting coach makes him Albert Pujols?

Beckham-struggling. His swing has to get shorter, and I think it will, but many of the same people who will blame Walker for his struggles are already calling him a bust and want to dump him.

Ramirez, doing what he always does which was a lot better than most scouts thought when the Sox signed him.

Morel-no power, doesn't get on base, but a rookie, may improve.

Pierre, nearing the end of the line. Always streaky, a new hitting coach will make him better?

Rios- total headcase. Toronto happily dumped him. Sucked for the Sox except for first half of 2010 when he was outstanding. Seems to not care. Is pinning his lack of success on Walker fair?

Quentin-doing a lot better than a lot of people calling for Walker's head thought he would do.

Dunn-easily the worst power hitter in baseball so far this season. Thought he may be out of it with a single that I'm sure if you asked the RF, he would have told you he should have caught, and an obviously wind aided HR Monday night. He's back to looking horrible. Does a new voice turn him around? I don't see how a hitting coach could have that much negative effect on a player, especially if he's well liked and respected like Walker is.

 

 

 

 

I just look at the teams that people mention fire coaches and don't see a huge jump in performance afterward. I think we should be concentrating the blame on the players rather than a hitting coach.

 

 

 

I think a lot of it's the concern that even players like B. Lillibridge fashion themselves home run hitters and never bother to adjust their swings based on the count or situational hitting.

 

Brent is an example of a player whose "progress" up until recently would seem to be a feather in Walker's hat. But his lack of contact with the bases loaded in recent weeks and his immense struggles against RHP has set off alarm bells.

 

The players like Morel or Vizquel who try to do things the right way have almost zero pop in their bat, same with Juan Pierre. Or I guess some will blame the lack of pop out of Morel on Walker, too.

 

And then there's the horrid hitting with RISP over the last couple of weeks. We've had a couple of huge comeback wins, but more recent teams like 05-06-08 and last year during the streak, you absolutely expected them to get a base hit. Of course, it's contagious. Listening to games, you're afraid when they get runners to 2nd and 3rd with less than 2 outs (or bases loaded) that they're more likely to be 0 or 1 runs than 2+.

 

Somehow, that "fail fail fail" mindset needs to be erased from their minds and reset back to 0.

 

Especially against the Twins.

 

 

[RockRaines]

What would the realistic expection for improvement be if Walker were to be replaced? I just find some of the argument laughable. Yesterday someone said Walker tells them to take fastballs down the middle, then said it was Walker's fault when they "just miss" cookies. If a guy can't hit a "cookie" no one is going to make him a major league hitter.

 

Go through the line up.

AJ is hitting about .290 with limited power. Who will get him to improve.

Konerko having a MVP type season. A new hitting coach makes him Albert Pujols?

Beckham-struggling. His swing has to get shorter, and I think it will, but many of the same people who will blame Walker for his struggles are already calling him a bust and want to dump him.

Ramirez, doing what he always does which was a lot better than most scouts thought when the Sox signed him.

Morel-no power, doesn't get on base, but a rookie, may improve.

Pierre, nearing the end of the line. Always streaky, a new hitting coach will make him better?

Rios- total headcase. Toronto happily dumped him. Sucked for the Sox except for first half of 2010 when he was outstanding. Seems to not care. Is pinning his lack of success on Walker fair?

Quentin-doing a lot better than a lot of people calling for Walker's head thought he would do.

Dunn-easily the worst power hitter in baseball so far this season. Thought he may be out of it with a single that I'm sure if you asked the RF, he would have told you he should have caught, and an obviously wind aided HR Monday night. He's back to looking horrible. Does a new voice turn him around? I don't see how a hitting coach could have that much negative effect on a player, especially if he's well liked and respected like Walker is.

 

 

 

 

I just look at the teams that people mention fire coaches and don't see a huge jump in performance afterward. I think we should be concentrating the blame on the players rather than a hitting coach.

Well then I assume you believe our lineup is league avg. Because if you think they are better, than the hitter need to improve and since they've been under achieving, the axe falls on the coach.

[caulfield12]

Overperforming: Konerko, AJ, Lillibridge until 3 weeks ago

 

As expected: Quentin, Ramirez, Vizquel, Castro

 

Underperforming: Teahen, Morel, Beckham, Dunn, Rios, Pierre (I was tempted to put him in "as expected" but just can't because of defense and dubious SB/CS totals)

Edited July 7, 2011 by caulfield12

[SoxAce]

Well then I assume you believe our lineup is league avg. Because if you think they are better, than the hitter need to improve and since they've been under achieving, the axe falls on the coach.

 

Nick Swisher agrees.

[Buehrle>Wood]

I just look at the teams that people mention fire coaches and don't see a huge jump in performance afterward. I think we should be concentrating the blame on the players rather than a hitting coach.

So basically once again the best defense for Walker is trying to deflect the blame for him. The argument goes that nothing will change, and perhaps that's even right, so what the hell is wrong with getting rid of walker then?

 

[Pale Sox]

When is his contract up? End of the year, right?

[Dick Allen]

I think a lot of it's the concern that even players like B. Lillibridge fashion themselves home run hitters and never bother to adjust their swings based on the count or situational hitting.

 

Brent is an example of a player whose "progress" up until recently would seem to be a feather in Walker's hat. But his lack of contact with the bases loaded in recent weeks and his immense struggles against RHP has set off alarm bells.

 

The players like Morel or Vizquel who try to do things the right way have almost zero pop in their bat, same with Juan Pierre. Or I guess some will blame the lack of pop out of Morel on Walker, too.

 

And then there's the horrid hitting with RISP over the last couple of weeks. We've had a couple of huge comeback wins, but more recent teams like 05-06-08 and last year during the streak, you absolutely expected them to get a base hit. Of course, it's contagious. Listening to games, you're afraid when they get runners to 2nd and 3rd with less than 2 outs (or bases loaded) that they're more likely to be 0 or 1 runs than 2+.

 

Somehow, that "fail fail fail" mindset needs to be erased from their minds and reset back to 0.

 

Especially against the Twins.

 

Wasn't Rudy Jaramillo the standard for hitting coaches? How are the Cubs hitting with RISP?

 

Leo Mazzone was a guy who got a lot of credit in Atlanta, even more than Cooper got in Chicago. He left for more cash in Baltimore, suddenly he didn't have talented pitchers with decent brains in their heads and he's out of baseball.

 

If the Sox fire Walker or he quits, Soxtalk will be wanting to replace the new guy in a month unless the personnel changes.

 

 

 

[TheBigHurt]

What would the realistic expection for improvement be if Walker were to be replaced? I just find some of the argument laughable. Yesterday someone said Walker tells them to take fastballs down the middle, then said it was Walker's fault when they "just miss" cookies. If a guy can't hit a "cookie" no one is going to make him a major league hitter.

 

Go through the line up.

AJ is hitting about .290 with limited power. Who will get him to improve.

Konerko having a MVP type season. A new hitting coach makes him Albert Pujols?

Beckham-struggling. His swing has to get shorter, and I think it will, but many of the same people who will blame Walker for his struggles are already calling him a bust and want to dump him.

Ramirez, doing what he always does which was a lot better than most scouts thought when the Sox signed him.

Morel-no power, doesn't get on base, but a rookie, may improve.

Pierre, nearing the end of the line. Always streaky, a new hitting coach will make him better?

Rios- total headcase. Toronto happily dumped him. Sucked for the Sox except for first half of 2010 when he was outstanding. Seems to not care. Is pinning his lack of success on Walker fair?

Quentin-doing a lot better than a lot of people calling for Walker's head thought he would do.

Dunn-easily the worst power hitter in baseball so far this season. Thought he may be out of it with a single that I'm sure if you asked the RF, he would have told you he should have caught, and an obviously wind aided HR Monday night. He's back to looking horrible. Does a new voice turn him around? I don't see how a hitting coach could have that much negative effect on a player, especially if he's well liked and respected like Walker is.

 

 

 

 

I just look at the teams that people mention fire coaches and don't see a huge jump in performance afterward. I think we should be concentrating the blame on the players rather than a hitting coach.

 

*SIGH*

 

So because maybe TWO guys are hitting really well that means the coach should be glorified for that... but the rest of the guys being abysmal should be overlooked? Meanwhile, SO hilarious how a lot of people's SOLE LOGIC for not trying a new coach when things OBVIOUSLY aren't working is, "I don't think it will make a difference." Worst argument ever. And being "liked and well respected" doesn't mean the man is good at his job. And even FURTHER, who is gonna come out and say, "Yeah, our hitting coach sucks" if he thinks so? As far as "People here will want a new one after the new one is here for a while," good job basing your argument on an assumption. And that is irrelevant anyways because a lot of "people here" clamor for a player to be traded/whatever after having one single week of bad play. THIS, however, has been YEARS. I see little to no logic at all in your posts so far, sorry. As someone above said, everyone on the other side is deflecting blame to try to refute it. Utterly silly.

 

GMAFB. Nothing but cop-outs, assumptions and excuses on the other side of this argument. When things don't work, eventually you need to make a change. And regardless of future results, it still doesn't change the fact that at that present time a change needed to be made.

 

But to hell with logic.

Edited July 7, 2011 by TheBigHurt

[caulfield12]

Dick Allen, it's fair to say you'd have to blame KW for this mess, right?

 

What would you do if you were Reinsdorf and scared to wake up tomorrow morning with the Twins coming to town...?

[Dick Allen]

So basically once again the best defense for Walker is trying to deflect the blame for him. The argument goes that nothing will change, and perhaps that's even right, so what the hell is wrong with getting rid of walker then?

As long as the roster remains the same, so will the ultimate results. Placing the blame where it shouldn't accomplishes nothing. As long as Juan Pierre leads off, Brent Morel hits second, and the current version of Adam Dunn hits third and Alex Rios not interested, IT DOESN"T MATTER WHO THE f*** THE HITTING COACH IS, YOU AREN"T GOING TO SCORE MANY RUNS.

[Swingandalongonetoleft]

Overperforming: Konerko, AJ, Lillibridge until 3 weeks ago

 

As expected: Quentin, Ramirez, Vizquel, Castro

 

Underperforming: Teahen, Morel, Beckham, Dunn, Rios, Pierre (I was tempted to put him in "as expected" but just can't because of defense and dubious SB/CS totals)

I don't think the Sox have anyone overperforming, Lillibridge for a short stretch, but he reverted to what he is- bench guy. I'd like to believe that Konerko is what he is. Similarly for AJ (how hard is it to see him as a .290-ish hitter?). For underperform, I thought going into the season that Morel would be worse- He's bad, but I definitely could have seen worse. The reason he hurts more that he should is Dunn and Rios. Hopefully Pierre has his second half run. I expected more out of Alexei. He's had moments, but he's also not new to MLB anymore.

 

It is at the point where maybe you shut down Dunn. There is a sizable investment here, and you're flirting with .500 with almost no contribution from him at all... Blame his appendix, bite the bullet on a plane ticket for Dayan, and give him some time to adjust to the grind of not playing the field and only hitting (notsomuch). I know finances are tight...(heard somewhere that the Sox are one of the more significant Dodger creditors).

Edited July 7, 2011 by Swingandalongonetoleft

[Dick Allen]

*SIGH*

 

So because maybe TWO guys are hitting really well that means the coach should be glorified for that... but the rest of the guys being abysmal should be overlooked? Meanwhile, SO hilarious how a lot of people's SOLE LOGIC for not trying a new coach when things OBVIOUSLY aren't working is, "I don't think it will make a difference." Worst argument ever. And being "liked and well respected" doesn't mean the man is good at his job. And even FURTHER, who is gonna come out and say, "Yeah, our hitting coach sucks" if he thinks so?

 

GMAFB. Nothing but cop-outs and excuses on the other side of this argument. When things don't work, eventually you need to make a change. And regardless of future results, it still doesn't change the fact that at that present time a change needed to be made.

 

But to hell with logic.

Logic is on my side. Firing a guy not responsible for the woes of the team accomplishes nothing.

[Pale Sox]

Logic is on my side. Firing a guy not responsible for the woes of the team accomplishes nothing.

He's the hitting coach. He is directly responsible for the offensive woes. That's pretty much his job description.

[Dick Allen]

Overperforming: Konerko, AJ, Lillibridge until 3 weeks ago

 

As expected: Quentin, Ramirez, Vizquel, Castro

 

Underperforming: Teahen, Morel, Beckham, Dunn, Rios, Pierre (I was tempted to put him in "as expected" but just can't because of defense and dubious SB/CS totals)

But for what everyone would blame Walker for, Pierre is performing as expected. Teahen doesn't play, Morel is a rookie. Its Beckham, Dunn and Rios. Beckham, maybe you can blame that on Walker, but I think its a cop out.

 

What's amazing is in a roundabout way, Walker's biggest detractors actually make him out to be quite an influence. They actually think Sox hitters do exactly as he says. They must think Walk gets a kick out of reading about the calls for his head all the time.

[TheBigHurt]

Logic is on my side. Firing a guy not responsible for the woes of the team accomplishes nothing.

 

Total bull. A guy toting assumptions, cop-outs and excuses as an argument is not a person with logic on his side; that is NOT logic. It is, in fact, the very opposite. If the hitting coach is responsible for nothing, then every team may as well cut theirs and free some payroll.

 

So then you willingly admit Cooper is not AT ALL responsible for any success any of our pitchers have had.

Edited July 7, 2011 by TheBigHurt

[Dick Allen]

He's the hitting coach. He is directly responsible for the offensive woes. That's pretty much his job description.

If the personnel was in place to be a real great offensive team, I would agree with you, but again look at the line up. It would be like judging the manager of the Pittsburgh Pirates the past 20 years on the win loss record.

[Dick Allen]

Total bull. A guy toting assumptions, cop-outs and excuses as an argument is not a person with logic on his side; that is NOT logic. It is, in fact, the very opposite. If the hitting coach is responsible for nothing, then every team may as well cut theirs and free some payroll.

 

So then you willingly admit Cooper is not AT ALL responsible for any success any of our pitchers have had.

Is he responsible for any of the failure? If Daniel Hudson were a hitter and hit like he pitched for the Sox last season, all the Walker bashers would have used Hudson's success after he left as proof Walker had to go.

 

Just start naming the hitters that leave the White Sox and all of a sudden start hitting. I found one guy in the 8 years Walker has been the hitting coach and he didn't work with Walker. Nick Swisher. That is it. Some have had success, but they had the same success under Walker. No one became appreciably better like everyone thinks every White Sox hitter will be once Walker leaves and they are all sprayed with pixie dust.

[caulfield12]

*SIGH*

 

So because maybe TWO guys are hitting really well that means the coach should be glorified for that... but the rest of the guys being abysmal should be overlooked? Meanwhile, SO hilarious how a lot of people's SOLE LOGIC for not trying a new coach when things OBVIOUSLY aren't working is, "I don't think it will make a difference." Worst argument ever. And being "liked and well respected" doesn't mean the man is good at his job. And even FURTHER, who is gonna come out and say, "Yeah, our hitting coach sucks" if he thinks so?

 

GMAFB. Nothing but cop-outs and excuses on the other side of this argument. When things don't work, eventually you need to make a change. And regardless of future results, it still doesn't change the fact that at that present time a change needed to be made.

 

But to hell with logic.

 

 

Having worked in a public/"inner city" high school for four quite painful years, there's just that "institutionalized group think" that 1) it's been tried in the past, 2) other school districts tried similar reforms, 3) it doesn't matter, the superintendent who came in to reform the schools will be gone and everything will change "back to normal" eventually. In the process of becoming cynical and apathetic about change, NOTHING EVER CHANGES.

 

This current administration with KW, Ozzie and the coaching staff just seems to have grown stale. It's pretty obvious they need a fresh approach, a new outlook, a rallying point for everyone to believe in. Whatever you want to call it, a vision or mission statement. I know the D-Backs get cited a lot, but the coaching staff over there has instilled the idea that "other teams might be more talented, but we're not going to lose games because we don't hustle. We're going to come out and put pressure on the opponent, make them beat us....and in the process, more often than not, they'll make mental/physical mistakes and we'll get some wins that could have gone either way." It's another way of restating the "Twins Way."

 

It's not even whether Walker or Guillen or KW are "nice persons" or "good at their jobs," it just FEELS like the time for a change has arrived.

 

 

[BigSqwert]

Having worked in a public/"inner city" high school for four quite painful years, there's just that "institutionalized group think" that 1) it's been tried in the past, 2) other school districts tried similar reforms, 3) it doesn't matter, the superintendent who came in to reform the schools will be gone and everything will change "back to normal" eventually. In the process of becoming cynical and apathetic about change, NOTHING EVER CHANGES.

 

This current administration with KW, Ozzie and the coaching staff just seems to have grown stale. It's pretty obvious they need a fresh approach, a new outlook, a rallying point for everyone to believe in. Whatever you want to call it, a vision or mission statement. I know the D-Backs get cited a lot, but the coaching staff over there has instilled the idea that "other teams might be more talented, but we're not going to lose games because we don't hustle. We're going to come out and put pressure on the opponent, make them beat us....and in the process, more often than not, they'll make mental/physical mistakes and we'll get some wins that could have gone either way." It's another way of restating the "Twins Way."

 

It's not even whether Walker or Guillen or KW are "nice persons" or "good at their jobs," it just FEELS like the time for a change has arrived.

[Dick Allen]

Having worked in a public/"inner city" high school for four quite painful years, there's just that "institutionalized group think" that 1) it's been tried in the past, 2) other school districts tried similar reforms, 3) it doesn't matter, the superintendent who came in to reform the schools will be gone and everything will change "back to normal" eventually. In the process of becoming cynical and apathetic about change, NOTHING EVER CHANGES.

 

This current administration with KW, Ozzie and the coaching staff just seems to have grown stale. It's pretty obvious they need a fresh approach, a new outlook, a rallying point for everyone to believe in. Whatever you want to call it, a vision or mission statement. I know the D-Backs get cited a lot, but the coaching staff over there has instilled the idea that "other teams might be more talented, but we're not going to lose games because we don't hustle. We're going to come out and put pressure on the opponent, make them beat us....and in the process, more often than not, they'll make mental/physical mistakes and we'll get some wins that could have gone either way." It's another way of restating the "Twins Way."

 

It's not even whether Walker or Guillen or KW are "nice persons" or "good at their jobs," it just FEELS like the time for a change has arrived.

I agree with this, except for maybe Ozzie, getting rid of one guy does nothing. Either clean house or keep everything the same.