SoxNet: What To Do With Alexei Ramirez

[NorthSideSox72]

Why isn't Leury Garcia in the mix to temporarily fill the hole at SS, if Alexei is not brought back?

He's a strong defender, with a canon for an arm, and is having a pretty good year at AAA.

THis was talked about over in the FS area too. Sanchez is the far better choice than Garcia, IMO. Garcia's defense just wasn't that good, Sanchez has been better. Sanchez has a much better offensive track record. I see no reason to go with Garcia over Sanchez.

 

Saladino is a pretty good defensive SS. Hahn referred to him as being the best defensive SS in the system aside from Rondon and Alexei. And I think Saladino's bat is much more likely to play than either of the above.

 

So to me, Garcia is probably 3rd or 4th option (if you include Beckham) after Alexei for starting at SS.

 

[Chisoxfn]

L. Garcia in my opinion is another one of those "Four A" players (and the Sox have a bunch of them). Impressive stats in the minor leagues but when they get their chance at the major league level they can't do a thing. Garcia had a chance last year and didn't show much. Sox need to do better than him.

 

Mark

Leury wasn't ever highly touted. He probably will find his way somewhere at some point (for another organization) as he has some useful skills. Problem is, he just isn't near the defensive player the current crop of guys are (Sanchez / Saladino) and both Saladino / Sanchez have better tools, including the hit tool. I don't know if either will hit enough to be starters or be elite enough defensively, but I think they are winning ball players (cliche, yes) from the perspective that they play good defense, are smart and good baserunners, have decent bat control, etc. Micah is the guy with the upside but I am all for giving plenty of at bats to all three to see what we have. Very little risk given our current situation and it gives the Sox front office far more time to evaluate these guys.

 

I'd also like to point out that we aren't talking about top prospects here, so if we can hit on these guys, you get way more upside then selling them to someone else. And there are a plenty of these type of players who turn out to be good, quality players.

[Chisoxfn]

Gordon Beckham supposedly needs to be released. His WAR -0.1.

Eduardo Escobar is the best SS the Sox have produced recently according to you, his WAR -0.5.

 

Facts suck when hyperbole is available. Semien's 0.6 WAR and falling and 28 errors at SS doesn't exactly warrant long term answer at that position. Nor does it suggest he would make a difference on the 2015 White Sox.

The A's were always insane to think Semien could play at short. If you move him to 2B, you have some value, but his value is easily tradeable for a guy like Shark. No matter what has happened with Shark and our season, I still believe we will get better prospects back for Shark then we gave up (even with Shark's performance being down a bit). We also traded from a surplus (we have a million potential 2B candidates).

[Dick Allen]

The A's were always insane to think Semien could play at short. If you move him to 2B, you have some value, but his value is easily tradeable for a guy like Shark. No matter what has happened with Shark and our season, I still believe we will get better prospects back for Shark then we gave up (even with Shark's performance being down a bit). We also traded from a surplus (we have a million potential 2B candidates).

I agree. Out of Micah, Sanchez, Saladino, Leury...just hope a couple of these guys figure it out and become solid starters. It looks at worst, they all, even Leury, could be bench pieces.

[he gone.]

The Sox have been loading up with old guys or the last 6+ years....where has that gotten them?

 

Using career stats to project future production of a 35 year old is madness.

Selling now (low) may not be the right idea; on the other hand, neither is bringing him back for $10 million.

 

Is it madness? Or is it madness to create another hole where there isn't one currently? Career stats are an indicator. Unless someone can tell me who we are putting at SS that has a better chance to produce, will sign a 1 year deal as a stop gap to Anderson, and will cost less money???

 

And don't say Saladino.

Saladino is a nobody. NOBODY. Might sound harsh, but he is a utility player --- just like the dozens that come and go each year in the majors. He won't be in the majors in 2-3 years. He's Brett Morel. He's Leury Garcia. He's Emilio Bonaficio, Darwin Barney, etc. Starting him for 162 games??? Sure, if you are loaded at 3B, 2B, C, DH and he's your only hole and batting 9th with good defense. Unfortunately the Sox have a million other holes. He's laid down a few bunts in his first call up to the bigs -- so what. Just because our team sucks at fundamentals and its refreshing to see doesn't mean hes a MLB caliber starter or player.

 

 

Also I'd be willing to bet that Alexei finishes with a higher BA than Saladino in the majors this year. Or even combined MilB and majors to Alexei. Tyler was batting .255 ..... against people like Scott Carroll, Brad Penny type talent .....

[knightni]

Is it madness? Or is it madness to create another hole where there isn't one currently? Career stats are an indicator. Unless someone can tell me who we are putting at SS that has a better chance to produce, will sign a 1 year deal as a stop gap to Anderson, and will cost less money???

 

And don't say Saladino.

Saladino is a nobody. NOBODY. Might sound harsh, but he is a utility player --- just like the dozens that come and go each year in the majors. He won't be in the majors in 2-3 years. He's Brett Morel. He's Leury Garcia. He's Emilio Bonaficio, Darwin Barney, etc. Starting him for 162 games??? Sure, if you are loaded at 3B, 2B, C, DH and he's your only hole and batting 9th with good defense. Unfortunately the Sox have a million other holes. He's laid down a few bunts in his first call up to the bigs -- so what. Just because our team sucks at fundamentals and its refreshing to see doesn't mean hes a MLB caliber starter or player.

 

 

Also I'd be willing to bet that Alexei finishes with a higher BA than Saladino in the majors this year. Or even combined MilB and majors to Alexei. Tyler was batting .255 ..... against people like Scott Carroll, Brad Penny type talent .....

[CWSpalehoseCWS]

All these people jumping on the Saladino bandwagon scare me. Also all the people jumping off the Alexei bandwagon scare me. The Sox said they have a 3 year window. They aren't trading Alexei, and especially at a low point.

 

Tell me this: Who is more likely to hit .260, have 30 doubles, 20SB, and 65 RBI's while playing solid D?

 

And who is more likely to hit .240, have 3HR, 10 Doubles, 20SB and 40RBIS?

 

Look at their career stats guys! Just because Saladino put down some successful bunts in his first 10 games doesn't mean he's going to hit .300 and be a savior!! He's just a bright spot on a team that has hit historically bad!!

 

Saladino is 26 years old. In his time in the MINORS his career averages are .261 avg, 9HR, 20 doubles, 22SB

Ramirez will be 35 years old. In his MAJOR league career his averages are .273 avg, 12 or so HR, 30 Doubles, 20SB

*** these numbers are rounded and not exact ... half seasons into account, etc.

 

This board is full of too many Hawks. Super excited when we win a few or a person like Saladino bats .300 over 10 games, and super depressed and fire sale when bad things happen. Alexei's trade value is too low to sell. His $10mm contract is not crazy for his production. He is not a hole on this team. A stop gap signed at $6mm does not give us a better opportunity to win next year. Saladino does not give us a better chance to win next year. Focus on 3B, C, and finding a better option in RF/moving Garcia to DH

 

SHEESH.

 

I don't think it's that people are jumping off the Ramirez bandwagon just because he's down from his career norms. He's 33 yrs. old. How many average/slightly above average MLB regulars continue to put up career-like numbers once they get around his age? Not too many unfortunately.

 

I personally think Ramirez's ability is starting to decline, and the last thing the Sox need is to pay a guy hitting like Ramirez $10M for next year. He's on pace for only 5 HR's this year. That's a HUGE warning sign IMO for a guy who's averaged 14 his whole career. Look at this Link, Ramirez is near the bottom in almost every category. I'm pretty sure the Sox could find a guy who can produce at a similar rate for less, and then allocate the money they saved elsewhere. I hope Ramirez proves me wrong the rest of the year, but I don't think we're ever going to see the Ramirez we've had over the past few years ever again.

 

I agree with you on Saladino. Don't get me wrong, I like Saladino, but I don't see him ever becoming a MLB regular beyond this year. IMO, his minor league stats scream solid bench or utility type player. But you can't disagree that he's brought a little bit of excitement to a very disappointed fanbase, and for a team that has zero ability in producing MLB impact bats.

[Lemon_44]

Good read. Biggest problem is the Sox don't really have anyone to play SS other than Saladino or Sanchez and then that opens up 3B and 2B. Or you could do 3B - Saladino, SS - Sanchez, 2B - Johnson, but then you have a very, very light hitting offense. At this point, I may be more inclined to do that and just turn the page on Alexei. I could totally see him bouncing back next year, but his poor ABs and often lackadaisical demeanor have sort of worn thin on me. I just think it is time to move on if you can get anything of value for him. I don't see the Sox picking up the option.

The Sox already have very, very light hitting offense and this is the lineup I'd like to see given a chance to see what they can do. I think Sanchez has started to look better at the plate the last few weeks and is not necessarily the lost cause some seem to think.

[LDF]

 

i have always liked Ramirez and for his contract of $10M for next year is cheap. the reason is, his defense. that alone will solidify the infield defense esp if MJ is at 2b. Saladino, i would like to see more reps of him at 3b and see how he is doing offensively and some reps at ss, same with Sanchez with reps at ss.

 

for a key position of ss, Aelexi brings in a known commodity and a familiar presence.

 

btw, i still think he will rebound next yr.

[Balta1701]

i have always liked Ramirez and for his contract of $10M for next year is cheap. the reason is, his defense. that alone will solidify the infield defense esp if MJ is at 2b. Saladino, i would like to see more reps of him at 3b and see how he is doing offensively and some reps at ss, same with Sanchez with reps at ss.

 

for a key position of ss, Aelexi brings in a known commodity and a familiar presence.

 

btw, i still think he will rebound next yr.

You cannot do both of the things you state in your first paragraph. You will not be able to get both Sanchez and Saladino "reps at SS" while still paying Alexei a lot of money unless Alexei gets hurt. If Alexei's healthy, even if he's terrible like he's been this year, he's going to play 150 games. He's on pace to play ~157 this year. If you want Sanchez or Saladino to get any reps at SS you have to trade Alexei Ramirez or not pick up his option.

[LDF]

You cannot do both of the things you state in your first paragraph. You will not be able to get both Sanchez and Saladino "reps at SS" while still paying Alexei a lot of money unless Alexei gets hurt. If Alexei's healthy, even if he's terrible like he's been this year, he's going to play 150 games. He's on pace to play ~157 this year. If you want Sanchez or Saladino to get any reps at SS you have to trade Alexei Ramirez or not pick up his option.

 

then switch them, this is, from this point onward is a formality on finishing off the season. that is the way i see it. lets see what the sox have for the future.

 

other wise, you do make a solid point.

[Vance Law]

The A's were always insane to think Semien could play at short.

 

They can move him to second once they trade Zobrist, which can't be far away. Acquiring Zobrist was one of the Bill Beane-iest things Beane has done. Grab a guy to flip at the deadline who's an excellent hitter and can play several positions so literally every single baseball team can use him as an upgrade somewhere. Maximum competing suitors.

 

Maybe we can ship them Alexei to fill SS.

Edited July 21, 2015 by Vance Law

[Vance Law]

I don't think it's that people are jumping off the Ramirez bandwagon just because he's down from his career norms. He's 33 yrs. old. How many average/slightly above average MLB regulars continue to put up career-like numbers once they get around his age? Not too many unfortunately.

 

I personally think Ramirez's ability is starting to decline, and the last thing the Sox need is to pay a guy hitting like Ramirez $10M for next year.

 

I agree and wouldn't be upset if he's traded. We'll see what happens. No way they pick up his $10 mil option, but that doesn't preclude them from declining it and signing him to a cheaper deal. I don't yet have a firm opinion on who is a better overall SS in 2016: Saladino or Ramirez.

[The Ginger Kid]

Saladino is a nobody. NOBODY. Might sound harsh, but he is a utility player ---

[VAfan]

Last offseason, I was firmly of the view that Brian Anderson espouses here -- you can't trade Alexei, because it opens up a NEW hole that you then have to fill. Fill the holes you have -- Alexei isn't one of them.

 

Now, I'm not so sure.

 

If you look at his numbers over the last 4 years -- http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/r/ramiral03.shtml -- what it looks like is a guy on a pretty steady decline with one good year thrown in -- 2014.

 

Take out 2014, and you have HRs going from 15, to 9, to 6, to 3 this year.

 

So, I think the Sox need to re-calibrate the expectation of keeping Ramirez, and use the money he was slotted to make somewhere else. And if you aren't going to tender him in the offseason, there's no reason to keep him now. Trade him for whatever you can get.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

Last offseason, I was firmly of the view that Brian Anderson espouses here -- you can't trade Alexei, because it opens up a NEW hole that you then have to fill. Fill the holes you have -- Alexei isn't one of them.

 

Now, I'm not so sure.

 

If you look at his numbers over the last 4 years -- http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/r/ramiral03.shtml -- what it looks like is a guy on a pretty steady decline with one good year thrown in -- 2014.

 

Take out 2014, and you have HRs going from 15, to 9, to 6, to 3 this year.

 

So, I think the Sox need to re-calibrate the expectation of keeping Ramirez, and use the money he was slotted to make somewhere else. And if you aren't going to tender him in the offseason, there's no reason to keep him now. Trade him for whatever you can get.

 

Everything you stated is the reason why many here wanted him traded during the off season. Only special players or guys on PED's continue to maintain a high level of play approaching their mid 30's.

 

There's no question the Sox may have to do some creative financing in the off season to improve this team and that $10M might come in handy.

 

Despite the rant by BA Alexei is hitting terribly and some of us could be saying " I told you so" about trading him after last season and now he want's to keep him yet another year ? Time is never on your side as a professional athlete. It must be awful nice to be so clear about the future of ballplayers. I would imagine what BA might've thought of Jose Iglesias' minor league hitting stats and his chances of being more than just a slick glove at the ML level.

Edited July 22, 2015 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[Eminor3rd]

Last offseason, I was firmly of the view that Brian Anderson espouses here -- you can't trade Alexei, because it opens up a NEW hole that you then have to fill. Fill the holes you have -- Alexei isn't one of them.

 

Now, I'm not so sure.

 

If you look at his numbers over the last 4 years -- http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/r/ramiral03.shtml -- what it looks like is a guy on a pretty steady decline with one good year thrown in -- 2014.

 

Take out 2014, and you have HRs going from 15, to 9, to 6, to 3 this year.

 

So, I think the Sox need to re-calibrate the expectation of keeping Ramirez, and use the money he was slotted to make somewhere else. And if you aren't going to tender him in the offseason, there's no reason to keep him now. Trade him for whatever you can get.

 

Ok, but all of that begs the following questions:

 

- Where do you put that $9m that will make a difference?

- Who plays SS that is likely to produce more?

- What do you gain by selling now (at the lowest possible value) versus later (at potentially higher value)?

[he gone.]

Ok, but all of that begs the following questions:

 

- Where do you put that $9m that will make a difference?

- Who plays SS that is likely to produce more?

- What do you gain by selling now (at the lowest possible value) versus later (at potentially higher value)?

 

 

Exactly. I'm not running around saying Alexei is great. He is declining. He isn't going to put up amazing numbers. I'd argue though to quit looking at his "power/HR" numbers and focus on this doubles, SB and defense. That's where his real value is. Also as stated above -- who fills his spot then? Again, remember this is for hopefully one year between somebody and Anderson in an ideal world. So see the list below, see who would sign a year deal, and then guess how much money you save vs. where you'd apply that money and on who? Just don't see how buying him out improves the team next year.

 

Joaquin Arias (31)

Mike Aviles (35)

Willie Bloomquist (38)

Asdrubal Cabrera (30)

Ian Desmond (30)

Stephen Drew (33)

Alcides Escobar (29) – $5.25MM club option with a $500K buyout

Maicer Izturis (35) – $3MM club option with a $1MM buyout

Cliff Pennington (32)

Alexei Ramirez (34) – $10MM club option with a $1MM buyout

Sean Rodriguez (31)

Jimmy Rollins (37)

Brendan Ryan (34) – $1MM player option

 

 

Again, not running around saying Alexei is a savior -- saying other holes to fill, let's not create one and lets not trade him at his lowest value. Ideally I'd like to buy him out and then sign him on a $6mm deal, but not against just giving him his $10mm

[shysocks]

Ok, but all of that begs the following questions:

 

- Where do you put that $9m that will make a difference?

- Who plays SS that is likely to produce more?

- What do you gain by selling now (at the lowest possible value) versus later (at potentially higher value)?

$9M is never going to make much of a difference so that's kind of an unfair question, but just because you're more than nine million dollars away from competing doesn't mean it can't be spent wisely.

 

Why not give it to Juan Uribe? At his age I can't see it costing much more - if any - than that, even though he's still posting good numbers. You get a player who can take most of the games at third and, if pushed, can probably still play around the diamond. He'll leave room for whatever youth we might have in mind.

 

I know people are probably wary of bringing in journeymen because of how it's gone with Bonifacio, but for every 2015 Bonifacio there's a 2014 Bonifacio. A lot depends on the direction the team wants to go and if it's really locked into this 3-year plan that Kenny just invented.

[LDF]

Ok, but all of that begs the following questions:

 

- Where do you put that $9m that will make a difference?

- Who plays SS that is likely to produce more?

- What do you gain by selling now (at the lowest possible value) versus later (at potentially higher value)?

 

unless the sox deals with the idea that saladino, mj, or sanchez will take over, a ss in the fa market is going to cost more in money and yrs..... with Aelxei the sox know they still have hm for 1 more yr and 1 more yr for the continue development of anderson.

[Eminor3rd]

$9M is never going to make much of a difference so that's kind of an unfair question, but just because you're more than nine million dollars away from competing doesn't mean it can't be spent wisely.

 

Why not give it to Juan Uribe? At his age I can't see it costing much more - if any - than that, even though he's still posting good numbers. You get a player who can take most of the games at third and, if pushed, can probably still play around the diamond. He'll leave room for whatever youth we might have in mind.

 

I know people are probably wary of bringing in journeymen because of how it's gone with Bonifacio, but for every 2015 Bonifacio there's a 2014 Bonifacio. A lot depends on the direction the team wants to go and if it's really locked into this 3-year plan that Kenny just invented.

 

At this point, is Juan Uribe less of an age-related risk than Alexei Ramirez? And if $9m doesn't make much of a difference, why can't we have both?

 

If I thought what we're seeing from Alexei was his true-talent now, I wouldn't argue to keep him. But I'm also not saying that he's going to get back to his prime numbers. But there are a confluence of factors here:

 

1) There is evidence that suggests that he will produce MORE going forward than he has this year.

2) There is NOT evidence to suggest that our internal replacement candidates will produce more than Alexei going forward.

3) $9m is still a relative pittance to pay for a decent veteran stopgap SS

4) The $9m spent doesn't appear likely to preclude us from making any of the other potential veteran stopgap signings (like Uribe) that look likely based on the FA class.

 

Now, if $9m turns out to be the difference between getting Weiters or not, this calculus may change. But I'm guessing that a lot of your will agree with me that Weiters at Boras rates in a weak positional FA class may be way too big of a risk anyway.

 

I wanted to trade Alexei over the offseason because (a) he was at peak value, (b) I thought Leury Garcia or Carlos Sanchez could fill the gap reasonably well, and © I thought the team was another year away from starting to make a run at the WC. Now, 8 months later, ALL of that has changed. Alexei's value has never been lower, Sanchez/Garcia have failed to produce, and RH's plan is clearly to compete immediately. Based on that plan, I just don't think we have a better option than giving Alexei a chance to bounce back.

[Eminor3rd]

unless the sox deals with the idea that saladino, mj, or sanchez will take over, a ss in the fa market is going to cost more in money and yrs..... with Aelxei the sox know they still have hm for 1 more yr and 1 more yr for the continue development of anderson.

 

Exactly -- I'm not advocating extending Alexei or anything, I just don't see a better option for 2016.

[LDF]

At this point, is Juan Uribe less of an age-related risk than Alexei Ramirez? And if $9m doesn't make much of a difference, why can't we have both?

 

If I thought what we're seeing from Alexei was his true-talent now, I wouldn't argue to keep him. But I'm also not saying that he's going to get back to his prime numbers. But there are a confluence of factors here:

 

1) There is evidence that suggests that he will produce MORE going forward than he has this year.

2) There is NOT evidence to suggest that our internal replacement candidates will produce more than Alexei going forward.

3) $9m is still a relative pittance to pay for a decent veteran stopgap SS

4) The $9m spent doesn't appear likely to preclude us from making any of the other potential veteran stopgap signings (like Uribe) that look likely based on the FA class.

 

Now, if $9m turns out to be the difference between getting Weiters or not, this calculus may change. But I'm guessing that a lot of your will agree with me that Weiters at Boras rates in a weak positional FA class may be way too big of a risk anyway.

 

I wanted to trade Alexei over the offseason because (a) he was at peak value, (b) I thought Leury Garcia or Carlos Sanchez could fill the gap reasonably well, and © I thought the team was another year away from starting to make a run at the WC. Now, 8 months later, ALL of that has changed. Alexei's value has never been lower, Sanchez/Garcia have failed to produce, and RH's plan is clearly to compete immediately. Based on that plan, I just don't think we have a better option than giving Alexei a chance to bounce back.

 

 

wow !!!! excellent.

 

just simple excellent.

[Dick Allen]

If the SS position can't be obviously upgraded this next offseason,you decline Alexei's option and sign him much cheaper perhaps with incentives where he gets paid if he performs. His fielding has been better, and he has hit slightly better lately. Perhaps he is coming out of his funk. I don't think he has declined physically as much as some think.

[LDF]

If the SS position can't be obviously upgraded this next offseason,you decline Alexei's option and sign him much cheaper perhaps with incentives where he gets paid if he performs. His fielding has been better, and he has hit slightly better lately. Perhaps he is coming out of his funk. I don't think he has declined physically as much as some think.

 

nice thinking. a real option there.