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White Sox Acquire James Shields

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It seemed to help Daniel Hudson, Gio Gonzalez (motivation of being traded twice by the same organization) and Brandon McCarthy in the past...getting away from the White Sox and/or Cooper. There's seemingly not much middle ground with him, as we saw last year with Samardzija. You're either in his camp or you're on your own/exiled.

 

Perhaps the prime examples, though...are Kip Wells and Josh Fogg from the Ritchie trade. They both really flourished in Pittsburgh and were a big part of helping to get that organization headed back in the right direction. Fogg had a much longer career than anyone would have predicted.

Edited by caulfield12

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It sure is a good thing we're going to spend $27M on Shields when Detroit just showed the entire division (and league) all you have to do is trot out RH pitching against the Sox to sweep them.

 

My 2 year old daughter can see the Sox need LH hitting...what is the FO doing??

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QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jun 6, 2016 -> 07:20 AM)
It seemed to help Daniel Hudson, Gio Gonzalez (motivation of being traded twice by the same organization) and Brandon McCarthy in the past...getting away from the White Sox and/or Cooper. There's seemingly not much middle ground with him, as we saw last year with Samardzija. You're either in his camp or you're on your own/exiled.

 

Perhaps the prime examples, though...are Kip Wells and Josh Fogg from the Ritchie trade. They both really flourished in Pittsburgh and were a big part of helping to get that organization headed back in the right direction. Fogg had a much longer career than anyone would have predicted.

 

 

In response to your statement, why is Cooper considered one of the best in baseball then?

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QUOTE (Coach @ Jun 6, 2016 -> 07:47 AM)
In response to your statement, why is Cooper considered one of the best in baseball then?

Good question - why is he?

His results don't come close to supporting that level of reverence.

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QUOTE (Coach @ Jun 6, 2016 -> 07:47 AM)
In response to your statement, why is Cooper considered one of the best in baseball then?

 

Because reputation matters most. He's behind the scenes enough that people can't really pin anything on him. Great marketing.

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QUOTE (CB2.0 @ Jun 6, 2016 -> 07:24 AM)
It sure is a good thing we're going to spend $27M on Shields when Detroit just showed the entire division (and league) all you have to do is trot out RH pitching against the Sox to sweep them.

 

My 2 year old daughter can see the Sox need LH hitting...what is the FO doing??

 

Your 2 year old couldn't apparently see that we need pitching too?

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QUOTE (CB2.0 @ Jun 6, 2016 -> 07:24 AM)
It sure is a good thing we're going to spend $27M on Shields when Detroit just showed the entire division (and league) all you have to do is trot out RH pitching against the Sox to sweep them.

 

My 2 year old daughter can see the Sox need LH hitting...what is the FO doing??

 

THANK YOU VERY MUCH. How long have I been beating that drum?

 

LaRoche was not a good choice, in the first place, but now that he's gone and the money from his salary available, Hahn is clearly trying to acquire a middle of the order, left handed bat. I'm confident that he will get someone, but not optimistic about how good he will be.

Edited by Lillian

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QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jun 6, 2016 -> 09:03 AM)
Your 2 year old couldn't apparently see that we need pitching too?

You prioritize the problems and only handle the second biggest problem after fixing the first.

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With grim #MLB trade deadline ahead for starting pitchers, #WhiteSox adopt wise strategy: Don't wait https://t.co/pFuQp7HLeW

https://twitter.com/BNightengale/status/739808167404535808

 

Makes a good point. Basically sox needed a workhorse starter and with there being limited pitchers out there for the deadline possibly and next year it shores up a spot the Sox would be looking for in the future anyway. Even when fulmer comes up and Latos leaves they would have been short in rotation. For the value of shields this year and next 2 if he doesn't opt out should be good for the sox as long as he keeps eating innings and pitches decent.

Edited by WhiteSoxLifer

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QUOTE (Tex @ Jun 6, 2016 -> 09:19 AM)

You prioritize the problems and only handle the second biggest problem after fixing the first.

 

Such is thinking like a 2 year old.

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QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jun 6, 2016 -> 10:03 AM)
Your 2 year old couldn't apparently see that we need pitching too?

 

Sox SP:

 

#6 in MLB in ERA (#1 in AL - also ER and R)

#3 in MLB in CG

#5 in MLB in SHO (#1 in AL)

#7 in MLB in QS

#11 in MLB in BAA

#5 in DIP%

 

You get the idea... And we had Gas Can Danks for the first month.

 

Another SP is nice and all, and I'm glad we didn't get fleeced in the deal, but this was hardly a top priority when you look at it.

Edited by CB2.0

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QUOTE (CB2.0 @ Jun 6, 2016 -> 09:44 AM)
Sox SP:

 

#6 in MLB in ERA (#1 in AL - also ER and R)

#3 in MLB in CG

#5 in MLB in SHO (#1 in AL)

#7 in MLB in QS

#11 in MLB in BAA

#5 in DIP%

 

You get the idea... And we had Gas Can Danks for the first month.

 

Another SP is nice and all, and I'm glad we didn't get fleeced in the deal, but this was hardly a top priority when you look at it.

 

Yes but when you have 2 questions marks in gonzalez and Latos plus a wild a times Rodon you need a steady pitcher to go along with sale and Quintana that can eat innings and somewhat save the pen. Was it a priority no but sox would have been needing a starter anyway for now and future.

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Gonzalez has done nothing but get better with every start. Hard to find many on this team you can say THAT about.

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QUOTE (CB2.0 @ Jun 6, 2016 -> 09:44 AM)
Sox SP:

 

#6 in MLB in ERA (#1 in AL - also ER and R)

#3 in MLB in CG

#5 in MLB in SHO (#1 in AL)

#7 in MLB in QS

#11 in MLB in BAA

#5 in DIP%

 

You get the idea... And we had Gas Can Danks for the first month.

 

Another SP is nice and all, and I'm glad we didn't get fleeced in the deal, but this was hardly a top priority when you look at it.

 

Team stats aren't the most accurate measure here, especially ones that include the bullpen. Those skew away from what our rotation really is. The simple fact being that the rotation is made up of 5 individuals. We have two really great starters in Sale and Q. We have one Jekyl and Hyde starter in Rodon. We have two mediocre to bad starters in Gonzalez and Latos. 3 out of 5 days there is a pretty good chance we are getting a 5 inning performance, which has been killing the pen for about the last month. There is no doubt we needed another SP who gets us 7 IP per night.

 

You can argue if something was a "priority" or not. But deals in MLB don't work like that. If the Sox don't deal for Shields when there do, there is a pretty good chance he isn't there when they get whatever is their first "priority" taken care of. This isn't OOTP. The Padres ownership just publicly trashed Shields. They wanted him out of SD yesterday. Either you make the deal, or lose the opportunity. Realistically there is a pretty high chance that Shields is the best SP dealt this season.

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QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jun 6, 2016 -> 10:57 AM)
Team stats aren't the most accurate measure here, especially ones that include the bullpen. Those skew away from what our rotation really is. The simple fact being that the rotation is made up of 5 individuals. We have two really great starters in Sale and Q. We have one Jekyl and Hyde starter in Rodon. We have two mediocre to bad starters in Gonzalez and Latos. 3 out of 5 days there is a pretty good chance we are getting a 5 inning performance, which has been killing the pen for about the last month. There is no doubt we needed another SP who gets us 7 IP per night.

 

You can argue if something was a "priority" or not. But deals in MLB don't work like that. If the Sox don't deal for Shields when there do, there is a pretty good chance he isn't there when they get whatever is their first "priority" taken care of. This isn't OOTP. The Padres ownership just publicly trashed Shields. They wanted him out of SD yesterday. Either you make the deal, or lose the opportunity. Realistically there is a pretty high chance that Shields is the best SP dealt this season.

 

Reality is that the Sox STARTERS have provided the 2nd highest number of innings in the league (only Texas has gotten more). I agree the bullpen needs help, but maybe they're getting gassed for other reasons beyond the rotation, because the numbers don't prove this.

 

And BTW - Shields has been as much of an "innings eater" as Dr. Jekyl.

 

 

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QUOTE (CB2.0 @ Jun 6, 2016 -> 10:10 AM)
Reality is that the Sox STARTERS have provided the 2nd highest number of innings in the league (only Texas has gotten more). I agree the bullpen needs help, but maybe they're getting gassed for other reasons beyond the rotation, because the numbers don't prove this.

 

And BTW - Shields has been as much of an "innings eater" as Dr. Jekyl.

 

Look at May on a game by game basis. We have had a ton of short performances since the calendar left April. It has even happened to Sale and Q lately.

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Anything that has been a concern recently has to keep being a concern. That is the nature of baseball. Sure Rodon has not bothered you in a few starts. Or Miguel G either. But that doesnt mean starting pitching is solved.

 

Gonzalez has been beating the peripherals but these have not been impressive outings. Rodon is feast or famine. Latos all famine lately.

 

Starting pitching NEEDED help. No question. Shields could be the third least meltdown prone pitcher on the current staff. At worst he's fourth. That fills a need.

 

The hitting has been bad but the most readily available hitting talent right now isnt going to improve things greatly. Is a Jay Bruce going to 100% outhit Avisail? If anything i'd like the idea of keeping Coats in LF and Melky can DH. For a stretch here. Then you have the chance of having an elite defense, elite starting staff...and on the rest you pray for good bounces.

 

Til some bats come available in the market that you want and can get.

Edited by Jose Paniagua

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QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jun 6, 2016 -> 11:16 AM)
Look at May on a game by game basis. We have had a ton of short performances since the calendar left April. It has even happened to Sale and Q lately.

 

Ok. Here's the front 4 for April/May since #5 has been a revolving door.

 

April:

Sale - 38.0 IP

Quintana - 30.2 IP

Rodon - 29.1

*Danks - 22.1

 

May:

Sale - 40.2 IP

Quintana - 41.1 IP

Rodon - 30.1

Latos - 26.1

 

Where am I missing "tons"?

 

Look - Shields may fill a need as an ok #4, but we got a hot start playing some offensively anemic teams. For me, I just see hitting and our razor thin bench of talent as a way bigger problem.

Edited by CB2.0

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QUOTE (Jose Paniagua @ Jun 6, 2016 -> 10:20 AM)
Starting pitching NEEDED help. No question. Shields could be the third least meltdown prone pitcher on the current staff. At worst he's fourth. That fills a need.

When your credential is not melting down, that's just not enough for a championship team. And as it is, his Seattle meltdown was a lot worse than any Sox starter has put up this year (except maybe for Danks - I try to forget).

Now if he can settle down to a dependable 3/4: 7 innings, giving up 3 runs, than fine. Hope he does.

Edited by GreenSox

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QUOTE (CB2.0 @ Jun 6, 2016 -> 10:20 AM)
Ok. Here's the front 4 for April/May since #5 has been a revolving door.

 

April:

Sale - 38.0 IP

Quintana - 30.2 IP

Rodon - 29.1

*Danks - 22.1

 

May:

Sale - 40.2 IP

Quintana - 41.1 IP

Rodon - 30.1

Latos - 26.1

 

Where am I missing "tons"?

 

You still haven't looked at what I said. Game by game, not aggregate. The most simple way to put this is that a 9 inning outing plus a 5 inning outing, is not equal to a 7 inning outing and a 7 inning outing, even though they are equal in aggregate.

 

But since you aren't seeing it, I will do the work for you.

 

Look at Miguel Gonzalez game log. He is averaging 5.5 innings per start, which means the bullpen must cover parts of 4 innings on average in his outings. In 6 starts, he has pitched into the 7th, once.

 

Mat Latos has one start since April 19 where he pitched into the 7th inning. He had one start in May where he made it through 6 full innings.

 

Carlos Rodon has been better than them, but only has only pitched into the 7th inning twice since April. He has two 7 inning starts this year, but he also has an outing of 1/3 of an inning.

 

Now factor in that these guys are all in a row in the rotation, so you are looking at the pen covering 10 to 12 innings over the course of 3 days when these guys are starting. Instead of seeing two relievers in short stints, you are seeing the worst of the pen in extending outings at more impactful times of the games they pitch in. It makes a difference, and it does add up.

 

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Oh right - we need James Shields and his 6.1 IP/GS; 4.5 ERA because our string of #4/5s (Danks, Latos, Gonzalez, Johnson) haven't averaged 7.

 

Glad we got that need filled.

 

 

 

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QUOTE (CB2.0 @ Jun 6, 2016 -> 10:59 AM)
Oh right - we need James Shields and his 6.1 IP/GS; 4.5 ERA because our string of #4/5s (Danks, Latos, Gonzalez, Johnson) haven't averaged 7.

 

Glad we got that need filled.

 

That is half an inning more, and it will go up once he isn't pinch hit for in the American League. You can see that pretty clearly in his pitches per start numbers and his IP/Start in the NL vs AL.

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QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jun 6, 2016 -> 11:07 AM)
That is half an inning more, and it will go up once he isn't pinch hit for in the American League. You can see that pretty clearly in his pitches per start numbers and his IP/Start in the NL vs AL.

And the number is also skewed due to the one disastrous start, given that the season is still young and each start greatly impacts the average.

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The only thing his IP/Start #s in NL vs AL show is that he got absolutely SHELLED pitching in the NL and in probably the most friendly home park in baseball. His HR9 and BB9 pretty much doubled while his H9 stayed the same and his K9 went up (that's the NL thing going both ways).

 

Maybe the "rigors of hitting" in 93 PA made him give up meatballs and lose control.

Edited by CB2.0

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