Look at Ray Ray Run

I literally just posted an article from 2019 in which Fangraphs says "WE ADDED FRAMING TO OUR WAR calculations." ??? This is my last post and time saying this; I posted the baseball reference chart to show YOU that baseball reference does NOT include framing in their defensive war (dWAR) calculations. THey only account for it in their DRS calculation. You cited defensive war (dWAR), not DRS or overall WAR. edit; I would have been a terrible teacher apparently.

edit: Duplicate below.

No, I cited that graph to show you where baseball reference specifically states that framing is ONLY accounted for on their cite in DRS. They specifically state that stat. You are citing dWAR which is an entirely different statistic. lol

Believe it or not, Baseball reference has no reason to update their list when fangraphs makes changes because they're competition! https://blogs.fangraphs.com/war-update-catcher-framing/ My goodness, have a nice night man.

bWAR now captures framing; because instead of taking their dWAR rating they now use a DRS calculation in their WAR calculation. This was updated recently. The problem is this guy is citing dWAR from B-Ref and doesn't understand that calculation does NOT include framing and does not use the updated DRS calculation that does include framing. I honestly get that this shit can be complicated, but Jeeze man to constantly tell me I'm wrong over and over when the guy is just misunderstanding is wild stuff ha.

I honestly think you have to be trolling me by now. On Bref - you can hover over the stat and it will tell you what it includes. When you hover over Rdrs (Defensive runs saved) it tells you it specifically INCLUDES framing. When you hover over dWAR it SPECIFICALLY states it uses the OLD DRS calculation that DOES NOT include framing. Can you please stop quoting me now, my head is starting to hurt. Regarding fangraphs, I AM NOT citing Fangraphs fWAR. I am specifically citing their DEF rating which includes framing. Jaysus christ man. There is no gotcha moment here; you just simply do not even understanding what you're citing.

Yes, DRS, not dWAR.

Wrong on what claim? Bref uses framing in their DRS calculation somewhere not their defensive WAR calculations. https://www.baseball-reference.com/about/war_explained_comparison.shtml

Grandal was tied for 4th among catchers, with McCann, in DRS in 2020. In fangraphs defensive rankings grandal ranked 2nd, mccann 12th. In 2019, mccann ranked 51st out of alpl catchers in fangraphs rankings, grandal was 4th. That year mccann did edge out grandal in DRS (2, 0).

Hes also using b-ref defensive WAR which doesn't account for framing.

Your memory needs some work as everything you're typing is wrong,

Dave dombrowski acquired mookie betts? Wuhhhht? No, he didn't. You are badly misremebering db's time in Boston.

Its like hiring someone to build your home, and after its done you install a new door and then everyone starts telling the world that you built the home. Thats dave.

This is not at all what Dave does. Theo literally builds rosters. Dave assumed a loaded team and assured they had only one chance to win.

Lol the red Sox just had to trade mookie betts because of the choices Dave made. Again, he didn't build a thing in Boston.

Such a weird take. Dave didn't build a single thing in Boston. Instead he left them where they are today. Anyone can potentially win if they're handed a loaded roster and pretend like the only year that matters is next year. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to think chris sale was good when he traded for him.

I cannot believe another professional baseball organization is hiring Dave dombrowski to destroy their entire system

My favorite is he'll just glance over these actual facts because his eyes saw what they saw lol.

I pointed out why it was relevant, because Grandal didn't get to catch the best pitcher of this generation because he had a PERSONAL catcher and despite that, the dodgers pitchers in total still performed better with grandal catching over the duration of his time there. Listen, im one who thinks grandal is slightly overrated. I've made that argument plenty but hes better than James mccann and over the duration of his deal I dont think it'll even be all that close.

No, because grandal had zero. Listen man, im always happy to have baseball discussions pertaining things I dont agree on but you're just being dishonest at this point and its a waste of time. Have a good one.

Again, these analysis take much more than surface level stats. Ill try and find my post, but you need to look at each pitchers individual performance. Of course a teams starting catcher is more likely to have an era lower than the team era because he tends to catch the BETTER pitchers on the team. And stop using a 60 game sample to draw your conclusions for catcher impact. Its just dishonest. Last year McCann caught the best pitcher on the team the majority of his starts. Of course he's gonna be better in that area. Jaysus.

There's literally nothing worse than hypotheticals with no actual basis to support the conclusion.

What? And show me these stats. I laid out the stats before. All you've done is say the same is true for McCann. There's no contradiction. You've been intellectually dishonest throughout this entire conversation; going as far as to say mccann has been statistically better offensively when it's an easily refutable fallacy.

No, they perform better because he steals more strikes than any catcher in the game consistently. Stealing strikes literally directly relates to reducing expected runs. And no one should analyze catcher ERA over the span of a 60 game season, and doing so is simply distroting statistics to fit a narrative.

Mccann made more errors last year, and had more catchers interferences, in 20ish games behind the plate than any catcher should have in a year.