greg775

QUOTE (soxfan49 @ Jul 19, 2017 -> 03:34 AM) If they're trying to win games, why is Clippard warming up? Touche. Good line. You got me there. QUOTE (Steve9347 @ Jul 19, 2017 -> 03:43 AM) Agreed. I'm shocked at the response here Nobody's blasting the deal. Sox got Yankees' No. 3 prospect after getting Cubs' 1 and 2 prospects. Like I said in another thread, on paper, the acquisitions have been good. QUOTE (Rowand44 @ Jul 19, 2017 -> 03:47 AM) Is there one person here who thinks we got fleeced? There's some negative reaction on the overall deal(if the 4th player is who is rumored) but nobody here has freaked out even a little bit about the deal. Seems pretty level headed around here for the most part. Exactly. Basically Rutherford is the only piece worth thinking about. You got Rutherford, who projects to be a star, for Frazier (cmon, he's a .200 hitter, awful), Robertson (very good closer but would anybody be surprised if he becomes a setup guy again?), and Kahnle. Well, Kahnle is only 27 and could be awesome, but he also could just be another guy. It's up to Rutherford to fulfil his expectations. If he does so the Sox traded well here. It's basically Robertson and Kahnle for an organization's No. 3 prospect who scouts love. Projected outfield of future: Eloy, Robert, Rutherford. Rutherford is supposed to be good on defense, questionable arm. Hope Robert and Eloy can throw the leather at it. Need defense to win.

QUOTE (kev211 @ Jul 19, 2017 -> 04:30 AM) Clippard was just warming in the Yankees bullpen. They are trying to win games. What are the odds of a guy getting hurt tonight?

QUOTE (Jake @ Jul 19, 2017 -> 04:03 AM) I've given you all the evidence and reasoning that I can. I'm trying to make a distinction between a team like the Sox or Cubs that decides it will prioritize building up its minor leagues over its MLB team (this will always make you lose as a side effect) and the idea that you should make a concerted effort to lose as many games as possible regardless of whether that effort improves your organization. The Cubs would have waited longer to call up Rizzo if they wanted to lose more. They wouldn't have thrown a bunch of money at Edwin Jackson (as it turns out, that helped the losing! oops!). But they let the wins happen because they knew the rebuilding process would keep their draft position in a high-value place regardless. What I think is stupid is the idea of intentionally slow-walking player development, refusing to use the bullpen in a smart way, or dumping decent MLB performers for no return in hopes of generating extra losses. Or, as a general rule, rooting against your team. They'll lose enough without anyone trying to make it happen if you're trading away every veteran who isn't nailed down. I nominate Jake for poster of the day.

QUOTE (Jake @ Jul 19, 2017 -> 03:47 AM) I'm saying they may have squandered fan interest and player development in the service of trying to save the owner money. They were in a rather different position to both Cubs and Sox though because they never really had a big moment where they started trading good veterans to get prospects like Cubs and Sox were able to do to kickstart things. To be clear, my argument wasn't that you go for it every year, but that the reason rebuilding works has little to do with draft position. It's that you stockpile your system by trading veterans and prioritizing the development of your minor leaguers. You will lose and get good draft picks because of that, but there are real benefits to squeezing out a few more wins with the MLB club when it comes to giving the people who watch the games on TV and in the ballpark something worth seeing. From a development standpoint, I think it helps the players to win whenever they can—I also think some pitchers benefit psychologically from not seeing their leads pissed away by awful bullpens. I'm of the opinion that the benefits of winning a little bit more are usually better than picking 2th instead of 5th or whatever. Jake, it may seem you are preaching and nobody's nodding in agreement, so rest assured I agree with you. Tell em, brother! QUOTE (Sox-35th @ Jul 19, 2017 -> 03:50 AM) That's a very long winded way of saying you don't understand tanking and the benefits of the highest possible draft pick. That's okay, you aren't alone. Sox 35, your tone is quite rude. You know, not everybody in the world agrees with everything you say. You may think you know more than Jake, I disagree. Why the mean posts to Jake? QUOTE (Jake @ Jul 19, 2017 -> 03:52 AM) No, I do understand. Look at the Cubs World Series roster and tell me about all the good players they got due to their (not even all that high) draft position. It won't take long because it's pretty much just 1 guy. Their rebuild was successful largely due to the trades, not their draft position. I hope the White Sox pursue it the same way because the draft position ain't worth that much when you know it's going to be a good one either way. Jake the Snake! I agree with Jake's calm, polite positions on this matter. QUOTE (Sox-35th @ Jul 19, 2017 -> 03:53 AM) Where do you get this crap from? Theo all but said the Cubs were going to try to lose and they did. A lot. Maybe read a little more before saying a team that won 61 games in one season was trying to win? Ugh. I believe you are being rude to a very nice poster who is posting opinions that are well reasoned. Why the meanness? QUOTE (Sox-35th @ Jul 19, 2017 -> 03:55 AM) That makes his complete lack of understanding of basic team building strategy all the more disappointing. Says who? he has the right to say what he wants. Don't worry, I won't respond any more to 35th on this issue. I'll let everybody enjoy the trade tonight but I felt the need to speak in support of Jake the Great!

QUOTE (Sox-35th @ Jul 19, 2017 -> 02:20 AM) Actually, no. You do not. You do not like to win games when you tank. 35th, you can't resist commenting bluntly to anybody who suggests they want to win. You are like the old me in posting. Your position on tanking is well known but you post on and on about it. QUOTE (Jake @ Jul 19, 2017 -> 02:23 AM) I stand firmly by the position that losing on purpose is stupid. You want to win even if you're not actively trying to put good players on your MLB roster. The losing is a byproduct of the restocking of the system. You want fans to come out and see wins and you want your players to play well in tough situations whenever they present themselves. If you want to start an "I always want to win" club, I'll join, but I don't think we'll have many members. BTW: I see Rutherford isn't much of a long ball guy despite being 6-foot-3. Does he project to at some point be a power guy? I see he hits doubles and must be pretty fast as he steals some bases. But he is 6-3 which would make you think he'd be a power guy. I do like the fact Rutherford and Eloy are tall. Like to see those type players rather than the grinder sized guys. I realize he's just out of high school and not trying to blast him.

QUOTE (spiderman @ Jul 19, 2017 -> 02:53 AM) Which prospects do the Yankees have in the top 100? Who are their top 10 prospects? Assuming that Kahnle, Robertson and Frazier are dealt to NYY, what should the White Sox expect to receive back? How bout that guy who got 3 hits against the Sox right after he got called up, forget his name. Get him and a catcher prospect and two live arms who are lower level and call it a day.

QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Jul 18, 2017 -> 06:36 PM) What grade do you give the 2009-2016 seasons? I'm busy right now. If you could look up the records for me post here and how many games we finished out, I could assess the grade. I enjoy contending for division titles, not being out of it in May/June. I'm not saying I'm against being great in the future after compiling all the prospects. I am saying it's very painful as a fan to have a team this bad and the wasted seasons have to be considered in assessing a grade to the rebuild. As far as how the Sox performed before the rebuild, I never said the team was doing it right. I know there have been a lot of horrible acquisitions through the years. I do think Robin was to blame for a lot of it as well and some awful acquisitions who didn't pan out.

QUOTE (Tony @ Jul 17, 2017 -> 08:40 PM) The Sox front office went out its way to destroy the roster of the MLB club. You were asked to rate the rebuild, yet in your judging criteria, you are putting the MLB teams winning percentage at the same level of the farm system's talent pool. I think the prospects guarantee the Sox a WS or two. I'm just saying as part of the process, you have to look at the lousiness of this season and tack on however bad the team is the next 2 seasons. I think the prospects make sense on paper and hopefully will star in the big leagues. That will be great if Moncada, Eloy and Robert rake the baseball to go with Avi and Abreu and Anderson hopefully having continued success. QUOTE (Tony @ Jul 18, 2017 -> 05:59 PM) Yet you have no problem handing out grades to things you just admitted you aren't interested or informed about. It's OK to sit some posts out, greg. Well, everybody was asked to vote. I gave it a 2 because I have to combine the current misery with what is coming, which is a few WS titles according to the experts, which will be great. But now I say if you combine both factors the rebuild 'currently' is a 5. That's because the current team is that bad. Remember all seasons are equal. The WS seasons are going to be great. But these horrific seasons have to figure in the overall equation/grade. QUOTE (pittshoganerkoff @ Jul 18, 2017 -> 06:04 PM) No, not everyone follows the prospects. But if you're team is in a rebuild, you have to pay attention to the prospects. And you don't have to go hunting for stats. They are readily available along with their ratings, a write-up, and projection on when they'll reach the majors. 2017 and 2018 are not about the big league club as much as they will be about developing for the future. If you want to ignore the prospects and open your eyes when they reach the majors, that's fine. But you can't say a rebuild is going terribly because of your own ignorance. Well, my paying attention to the prospects is assuming they are great. They are mostly all rated very high, baseball people love them, so that's good enough for me. Now when they get to the bigs is when fans like me get excited and 'judge' them. I trust that the key pieces acquired are difference makers and WS are in the Sox future. I'm not saying the rebuild is going terrible BTW, I'm saying the current big league product is beyond horrific. I think that's OK for me to figure into the overall grade. The prospects Hahn have acquired all make sense and all figure to provide October/November baseball to Chicago hopefully for a 5-8 year window.

QUOTE (Sox-35th @ Jul 18, 2017 -> 04:47 PM) There is a legitimate argument to be made that this rebuild is going so well that certain players in the minors are too good to leave down there. Yet Greg thinks this rebuild is a bad idea. If you're not a prospect guy, you're NOT a baseball fan. Sorry, but a lot of prospects become MLB players and the White Sox have successfully stockpiled so many that it's hard to fathom none of them panning out. The White Sox have the best minor league system in baseball based on raw AND top end talent. This rebuild is going swimmingly. It's almost go so good, the White Sox will only have one shot at a really high draft pick as guys like Moncada, Lopez, and Kopech can't be held down for much longer. I am a fan. If the rebuild works, I get to enjoy the success just as you do. May be unfair, but it's the case. You say if you are not a prospect guy you are not a baseball fan. I don't know about that. Not everybody follows that stuff heavily. Since my team is doing the rebuild, then yes I want Moncada, Eloy, all the pitchers the Sox acquired, Robert, etc., to do well. But frankly I am not interested in hunting for their minor league stats. If their highlight videos are right in front of me, sure I'll click on them. I tend to follow the big league club and wait for the reinforcements. When they come, I have the right to start following them just like any of the people who follow prospects all the way through the minors.

QUOTE (Rowand44 @ Jul 18, 2017 -> 04:44 PM) No. Can't assure that for any team in the history of baseball. This is just garbage. I don't think any mean post is "garbage." There has to be some frustration to go with all the optimism out there.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 18, 2017 -> 03:14 PM) Normally I am all for something like this, but it is starting to become unwatchable. The constant 3 1/2 hour games don't help the cause. Maybe Ricky should make it a point for his team to try to play speedy games. It's hard to believe how long it takes to play 'some' baseball games. I was listening to a millenial on the radio the other day who said he cannot watch baseball, just can't do it. So boring watching guys step out of the batters box and adjust their gloves, coupled by the snail's pace of the game.

QUOTE (pittshoganerkoff @ Jul 18, 2017 -> 02:14 PM) It's obvious that no one here is going to make you see the light, and maybe you'll have your day in 2020 when most of these prospects wash out and you can say "I told you so." That seems to be what you want. But chances are that the Sox will be good...maybe damn good in a couple years. This year and next will be painful, but I can deal with that to get what most of us expect in the future. I won't say I told you so because that won't accomplish anything. I'll just be sad if we always stink.

I am not a prospects guy. I like proven players, though not many hitters are truly elite and not many pitchers are truly elite any more. That said, a lot of you are prospects people so I ask you, since so many gave the rebuild a 9 or 10 in this thread: Taking all the talent the Sox have acquired into consideration and assuming we keep Abreu around as well as Rodon and Anderson ... can you assure me 1 to 3 World Series appearances only taking the guys we acquired and our homegrown minor leaguers into consideration as well as the fact the Sox are sure to get some more good prospects for David Robertson and maybe Melky? Can you assure me 1-3 World Series appearances and/or WS titles? I gave the rebuild 2 so far cause I need proof and I am not a prospects guy.

QUOTE (knightni @ Jul 17, 2017 -> 04:54 PM) I'd estimate that Anderson would barely be in top 15 if he was in our minor league system right now. Sanchez and Saladino were never MLB starting caliber guys to begin with. They'd probably be way down in the 20s on the present list. Intersting comment. Is Anderson a potential bust? A likely bust? I would consider him a top five prospect right now in the organization until he proves unworthy.

QUOTE (knightni @ Jul 17, 2017 -> 04:24 PM) The current mlb team's success or lack-there-of, has zero to do with the success or failure of the rebuild. I don't see how trying to improve yourself through youth is a bad thing. The Sox have certainly had minimal success with less talented minor league guys and above average free agents. The 2000, 2005 and 2008 players - for the most part, never really had super talent. They just hit all cylinders at the right time. But in rating the rebuild you have to realize if the prospects don't lead the Sox to greatness then you have to combine the fact that during the prospects' maturation, the big league club was miserable. It's not like the MLB club will be .500 during the rebuild, which would have meant contending for a division title. The MLB club is miserable, so I feel it does have to do with the overall ranking. The prospects must succeed big time for the rebuild to be a success. As of now you have nothing to go on besides rankings so it is impossible to rank anything regarding the rebuild, except, on paper, Hahn acquired talent that is considered WS worthy. Hence I logically give the rebuild a 4 or 5 though personally at this stage my opinion stands at the 2 I gave it before. You get a 9 of 10 for the gathering of prospects that the baseball world says are can't miss ... but the current result on the field - total crap -- would be a zero. So that's a 4 or 5. Could it be a 9 at some point? Absolutely? But it will be a while.

QUOTE (harkness @ Jul 17, 2017 -> 02:19 PM) pretty impossible to rate it at this point. If you are objective that's absolutely true. There's no way to give it anything HIGHER than a 5. Why? Cold hard evidence. The current FACTS are the Sox have a horrible baseball team on the field right now. So in that regard the rebuild is frankly a zero. However, in the prospect world, the prospects push it to a 9. So average it out and you get a 4 or 5. The facts are that the team stinks right now and for some time to come. But the experts say the prospects guarantee a future WS or several WS. So you have to average both factions, folks. Like harkness said it is hard to impossible to rate it at this point because the prospects are amazing according to the analysts; the current team is so bad it is beyond belief. If the prospects don't pan out, the current team's lousiness would forevermore deem the rebuild a failure.

QUOTE (FT35 @ Jul 17, 2017 -> 02:55 PM) Exactly. Many people have confused our rebuild with a "fire sale." This is not a fire sale as much as an asset reallocation project. We are simply transferring present value to the highest probability of future value. I can't believe I just read this. I never heard anybody speak corporatese in real life, outside of a meeting of suits. An asset relocation project? I'm speechless, but you should be working for the White Sox and making big bucks.

QUOTE (Tony @ Jul 17, 2017 -> 03:34 AM) The "issue" with Garcia is if he were to keep these numbers up, when the Sox are "projected" to be ready to go, he will be 28-29 and very expensive to extend. With that said, I wouldn't be so quick on the "trade Avi" front. The Sox have invested a ton of time into him, and they still don't really know what they have in him. Because of that, I'd argue he has more value to the Sox than 29 other teams. Is the plan to only win 2-4 WS titles with young guys? Hope they are SO talented we just blow away the opposition? It seems to me teams that win WS often have a few veterans to splice in with the young studs. Royals had Zobrist and Wade Davis and some other older guys. Didn't the Giants have a few oldies like Uribe? The Cubs had Zobrist too as well as some veteran pitchers. If the Sox are unwilling to pay big bucks to anybody (like the Royals) they are going to have to copy the Royals financial strategy when they won their one title. That's all they are getting out of their run, though they did get in two WS. So the Sox already signed Anderson for a few years just as the Royals signed a handful of guys a few years back like Perez for a while. My question is ... are the Sox going to win 2-4 WS with only young players who will be winning the WS before they reach free agency? Will the Sox revolutionize baseball by winning WS titles with one of the lowest payrolls in history? Or will they have to suck it up and actually pay the piper on some guys like a good closer, a good setup man, a veteran starter to go with all the young ones, and a Zobrist type guy to go with the younguns. Will Abreu or Avi be around? It seems to me everybody is suggesting we will win multiple WS with these young superstars and will be able to do it on the cheap. Every time somebody mentions $$ even for a guy like Avi or Rodon, people say no way we'll be able to sign 'em or want to sign 'em. The Cubs spent some $$$ to go with their youth. The Royals didn't.

QUOTE (Lip Man 1 @ Jul 16, 2017 -> 11:33 PM) To clarify: I'd like them to lose; with the youngsters, the ones who may still be around in two years showing some progression, some ability to grasp and execute the fundamentals. I'd like the vets to act like major league players and to play well enough that another team may be interested in them in trade. I love Lip Man!

QUOTE (elrockinMT @ Jul 16, 2017 -> 07:37 PM) You just can't be happy or satisfied with this team and any lead they may have. It is now 5-5 because of defensive lapses and Holland giving up homers You deserve credit for following each game as something that deserves to be tracked. Kind of silly to follow the games falling apart now that we dealt Q and really have one trainwreck rotation. Seriously can u envision us winning more than 20 games out of the final 70? This team doesn't have much to work with on the pitching/defense side of things. I guess we ultimately could outslug some teams. It's impressive u follow the games, El Rockin. What's our rotation gonna be next year? What do I have to look forward to?

QUOTE (kitekrazy @ Jul 16, 2017 -> 10:36 PM) At least where you can stomach watching them. I don't think I've watched an inning yet this year. Tempted to get MiLB. I definitely am not interested in watching an inning of Holland, Pelfrey or Shields on the mound. I usually go back at night and watch the Sox highlights on mlb. But I can't watch those 3 guys pitch one pitch. Really makes me sad.

QUOTE (striker @ Jul 17, 2017 -> 03:35 AM) Kahnle + Garcia to the Cardinals Isn't Garcia projected to be part of the rebuild? He's gonna be 28-29 when we are good again. Is Abreu gonna be the only piece we keep along with Anderson? If we are WS winners with an ENTIRELY rebuilt lineup and entirely new starting rotation and relief corps that will be wild.

QUOTE (Heads22 @ Jul 16, 2017 -> 09:13 PM) You asked the same thing about Dunn...maybe Holland likes playing baseball? If everyone that was mediocre retired, you wouldn't have the sport. But he's so bad. At least turn into a lefty specialist where you face only one batter per game. That year Dunn was hitting about .155 he did deserve the same question. A pitcher could have hit as well as Dunn and a position player could turn out the same crap on the mound Holland is trotting out there. At some point it's embarrassing. Can't believe a fan would want to subject themselves to watching Holland pitch. I guess when it's Holland, Shields and Pelfrey you have to be a huge fan of baseball to head to the Cell when they are pitching.

If you were Holland, what would be your motivation to not just retire? I know $$ means everything but he might get hurt out there. He's that bad. At the very least, become a specialist who faces one lefty when needed. Surely this post isn't offending anybody. There can't be any Holland fans on this board can there? Nice to see Avi bust out. If we lose, 0-3 since the trade; Cubs 3-0. Not that that matters, but interesting.

Q has really found a groove at this point of the season. He's been pitching as well as anybody out there the last few starts.