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I guess I'll try to get people back to the subject of the thread instead of a TA discussion. He's been pathetic at short this season and at the plate but somewhat understandable considering his personal tragedy. I think because of the tragedy in fact, they should have sent him down long ago just to mourn at his own pace. He deserves time to mourn, folks. Doing it in the high pressure of the big leagues is not so smart for anybody. I hope Tim finds the peace he needs. But back to the rebuild ... I wish you folks were my bosses at the jobs I've had. You are sooo positive and forgiving. I stand by my grade of 2 right now (though I guess I could hike it to 4 or 5 if I look ONLY at how the prospects rate on paper; I don't deny there are bunch of HIGHLY RATED performers in our organization now. But considering some of crazy bad acquisitions of this organization the past several seasons, I don't trust anything about our front office. As I said, many of you guys trust everything about what our front office has done. So I DO NOT give anybody the benefit of the doubt. Here's hoping the core -- Moncada, TA, Rutherford, Robert, and Eloy and all the pitchers we got in the 2 trades -- are GREAT and we are locks to win 2-3 WS in short fashion, maybe more. But I certainly would never give a high grade right now. You guys are so mad at me for saying the current record must be included in any grade. But like I said before, the totally horrid season of this season and next should be considered. I mean it's part of the rebuild and it's ugly, baby. But the current ineptitude HAS TO BE CONSIDERED AS part of the final grade. It just has to be unless your head is buried in the sand. Just my take. But it's my take and I must stand by it.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 20, 2017 -> 08:13 PM) What the good managers have is good players. Torborg was canned from the Marlins mid season, and then they won the WS. Of course they added Miguel Cabrera and Dontrelle Willis to their roster. His career winning pct. as a manager is .006 higher than Robin Ventura's, a guy who was blamed for a lot of things you still see with the same players this year. Bad baserunning, bad defense, stupid throws....Lefty Tanner set the record for consecutive last place finishes by a manager. All these guys did pretty well when they had good players. Ozzie Guillen was a genius when the Sox won and he wanted all the attention. When he did the exact same thing when they were not so good, he was an ego maniac. No one wins with bad players, some lose with some good ones, but the locker room stuff, IMO, is now self regulated. Players make much more money than the manager for the most part. If you have talent and the right players leading your clubhouse you're fine. If you are looking for your manager to be that guy, IMO, it will be brief and there are 2 or 3 guys tops that could get it done. Very good post. You actually are right. The bunting is very annoying and I think it's the sign of a manager with wrong philosophy about baseball, but what you say IMO is 100 percent true.

Somebody I know who has a condition that would force her to fork over about 50,000 a month was cussing out Moran tonight. Did he change his position? News stories are too damn complicated. Write them simpler like fricking sports stories. My pet peeve. You can't understand stories on health care and for instance, North Korea or the Middle East without being an expert. What did Moran do tonight that was so bad? She is furious.

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Jul 20, 2017 -> 04:24 AM) It isn't that he didn't run it out -- it's that he didn't run out of the box. I don't think it was a lack of hustle as much as a mental error. He made contact, assumed it was a sacrifice, then started to run hard when he realized he could be doubled up. Dumb play, but a specific kind. He'll probably learn from that. Surely Rick Renteria will grab him tomorrow and discuss what he needs to do in that situation. I bet u if Renteria meets with him about it he'll probably never make that mistake again. It has to be addressed, though. I mean if he was 33 years old, no, let it go. But a youngster has to discuss what was going thru his head and Ricky R must talk to him bout it, right?

Didn't see the Anderson bunt. Are u all positive he didn't run it out? That's a no no from a youngster. Wonder if the media will ask Renteria about it. Probably would be a tough question to ask considering the game means nothing at this stage of the season. Probably no need to cause a scene but if he didn't hustle ... scary.

This game reminds me of Little League when we, the best team in the league, would play the worst team -- the one in which the manager let everybody play an equal amount of innings. The Dodger hitters are figuratively attacking the baseball as our beloved Bears Mt. Greenwood Little League team did in destroying the miserable Larks. Boy, the Sox have a bad team. Good crowd tonight, however. Kudos to the fans. Read this entire game thread. As a current dismayed fan, I've enjoyed reading some negativity for a change. The game thread delivers some negativity which has calmed me down tonight.

No offense to you guys, but this is a great concession to those of us who don't care about trades and want to win now. We get Moncada on the big league club which pleases us and from what I can tell on this board, most people are upset Moncada will not remain in the minors for much more seasoning. After all, the move truly should make no sense to you guys that love the trades and the rebuild. We're not going to contend this year. We're not going to contend next year, yet Moncada will be playing major league baseball as Anderson is doing. Thank you, Mr. Hahn for giving those of us who aren't particularly fond of trades a bone so to speak. Thank u. Let's do a little drill to prove my point. Please be honest. Answer this question. Are you happy Moncada is joining the White Sox? Yes or no. My answer: Yes (1-0 yes).

QUOTE (SoxAce @ Jul 19, 2017 -> 04:23 AM) Seriously people are getting the term blue chip confused. Eloy Jimenez is a blue chip prospect. Rutherford currently isn't and again I'm probably the 3rd or 4th biggest Rutherford fan here. No. 3 prospect in Yankee system, first round draft pick, selected 18th overall. I think that's blue chip. Projected to have power, currently more line drives. Will he be the next Eric Hosmer? The next David Justice, who also was 6-3? Or gulp, Jeff Francoeur??

QUOTE (Lillian @ Jul 19, 2017 -> 04:17 AM) The next major move this team makes should be to hire some exceptional coaches, for the farm system, to develop all of this talent. Other teams have ended up with great players, with less potential than the Sox now have. Let's just hope that they don't waste it. That isn't going to happen though. Isn't Buddy Bell still in charge? Arguably he is very mediocre.

I'm glad Moncada is being called up. For the few of us who want to win now, he has to help a little bit. I mean does anybody think this team can win 20 games the rest of the season? I don't.

QUOTE (Jake @ Jul 19, 2017 -> 04:13 AM) There is a very real chance that in 3-5 years, this will be a trade that Yankees fans bring up in every single conversation about Cashman's f*** ups Good to see some Yankee fans lamenting losing Rutherford on Twitter. Some like the trade; many are lamenting the loss of Rutherford saying they should have gotten Q for Rutherford not David, Frazier and K.

For better or worse, the Sox are now are set on developing their outfield of Former Cub Eloy, International Signee Robert and former Yankee Rutherford. If everybody pans out Avi could be DH and Tito Polo could be the fourth outfielder. Lot of candidates in the system for 4th outfielder. They now will develop an infield of Burger/Davidson (trade the one who doesn't make it), Anderson ss, Moncada 2b and Abreu. There is a young catcher in the system. The rotation: we all know there are 8-10 guys battling for that with Rodon and Fulmer hopefully leading the way with the guys we acquired in trades from the Nats including the fireballer. Hopefully the Sox when they are ready to contend will spend money on some bodies in the bullpen and maybe a DH and a veteran starter. If the starting pitching is as good as people think it can be and Moncada, Anderson and all 3 outfielders are all stars and IF the Sox acquire some good bodies for the bullpen via free agency (including a closer) there is your WS winning team. Or 2-3-4 WS winning team.

QUOTE (soxfan49 @ Jul 19, 2017 -> 03:34 AM) If they're trying to win games, why is Clippard warming up? Touche. Good line. You got me there. QUOTE (Steve9347 @ Jul 19, 2017 -> 03:43 AM) Agreed. I'm shocked at the response here Nobody's blasting the deal. Sox got Yankees' No. 3 prospect after getting Cubs' 1 and 2 prospects. Like I said in another thread, on paper, the acquisitions have been good. QUOTE (Rowand44 @ Jul 19, 2017 -> 03:47 AM) Is there one person here who thinks we got fleeced? There's some negative reaction on the overall deal(if the 4th player is who is rumored) but nobody here has freaked out even a little bit about the deal. Seems pretty level headed around here for the most part. Exactly. Basically Rutherford is the only piece worth thinking about. You got Rutherford, who projects to be a star, for Frazier (cmon, he's a .200 hitter, awful), Robertson (very good closer but would anybody be surprised if he becomes a setup guy again?), and Kahnle. Well, Kahnle is only 27 and could be awesome, but he also could just be another guy. It's up to Rutherford to fulfil his expectations. If he does so the Sox traded well here. It's basically Robertson and Kahnle for an organization's No. 3 prospect who scouts love. Projected outfield of future: Eloy, Robert, Rutherford. Rutherford is supposed to be good on defense, questionable arm. Hope Robert and Eloy can throw the leather at it. Need defense to win.

QUOTE (kev211 @ Jul 19, 2017 -> 04:30 AM) Clippard was just warming in the Yankees bullpen. They are trying to win games. What are the odds of a guy getting hurt tonight?

QUOTE (Jake @ Jul 19, 2017 -> 04:03 AM) I've given you all the evidence and reasoning that I can. I'm trying to make a distinction between a team like the Sox or Cubs that decides it will prioritize building up its minor leagues over its MLB team (this will always make you lose as a side effect) and the idea that you should make a concerted effort to lose as many games as possible regardless of whether that effort improves your organization. The Cubs would have waited longer to call up Rizzo if they wanted to lose more. They wouldn't have thrown a bunch of money at Edwin Jackson (as it turns out, that helped the losing! oops!). But they let the wins happen because they knew the rebuilding process would keep their draft position in a high-value place regardless. What I think is stupid is the idea of intentionally slow-walking player development, refusing to use the bullpen in a smart way, or dumping decent MLB performers for no return in hopes of generating extra losses. Or, as a general rule, rooting against your team. They'll lose enough without anyone trying to make it happen if you're trading away every veteran who isn't nailed down. I nominate Jake for poster of the day.

QUOTE (Jake @ Jul 19, 2017 -> 03:47 AM) I'm saying they may have squandered fan interest and player development in the service of trying to save the owner money. They were in a rather different position to both Cubs and Sox though because they never really had a big moment where they started trading good veterans to get prospects like Cubs and Sox were able to do to kickstart things. To be clear, my argument wasn't that you go for it every year, but that the reason rebuilding works has little to do with draft position. It's that you stockpile your system by trading veterans and prioritizing the development of your minor leaguers. You will lose and get good draft picks because of that, but there are real benefits to squeezing out a few more wins with the MLB club when it comes to giving the people who watch the games on TV and in the ballpark something worth seeing. From a development standpoint, I think it helps the players to win whenever they can—I also think some pitchers benefit psychologically from not seeing their leads pissed away by awful bullpens. I'm of the opinion that the benefits of winning a little bit more are usually better than picking 2th instead of 5th or whatever. Jake, it may seem you are preaching and nobody's nodding in agreement, so rest assured I agree with you. Tell em, brother! QUOTE (Sox-35th @ Jul 19, 2017 -> 03:50 AM) That's a very long winded way of saying you don't understand tanking and the benefits of the highest possible draft pick. That's okay, you aren't alone. Sox 35, your tone is quite rude. You know, not everybody in the world agrees with everything you say. You may think you know more than Jake, I disagree. Why the mean posts to Jake? QUOTE (Jake @ Jul 19, 2017 -> 03:52 AM) No, I do understand. Look at the Cubs World Series roster and tell me about all the good players they got due to their (not even all that high) draft position. It won't take long because it's pretty much just 1 guy. Their rebuild was successful largely due to the trades, not their draft position. I hope the White Sox pursue it the same way because the draft position ain't worth that much when you know it's going to be a good one either way. Jake the Snake! I agree with Jake's calm, polite positions on this matter. QUOTE (Sox-35th @ Jul 19, 2017 -> 03:53 AM) Where do you get this crap from? Theo all but said the Cubs were going to try to lose and they did. A lot. Maybe read a little more before saying a team that won 61 games in one season was trying to win? Ugh. I believe you are being rude to a very nice poster who is posting opinions that are well reasoned. Why the meanness? QUOTE (Sox-35th @ Jul 19, 2017 -> 03:55 AM) That makes his complete lack of understanding of basic team building strategy all the more disappointing. Says who? he has the right to say what he wants. Don't worry, I won't respond any more to 35th on this issue. I'll let everybody enjoy the trade tonight but I felt the need to speak in support of Jake the Great!

QUOTE (Sox-35th @ Jul 19, 2017 -> 02:20 AM) Actually, no. You do not. You do not like to win games when you tank. 35th, you can't resist commenting bluntly to anybody who suggests they want to win. You are like the old me in posting. Your position on tanking is well known but you post on and on about it. QUOTE (Jake @ Jul 19, 2017 -> 02:23 AM) I stand firmly by the position that losing on purpose is stupid. You want to win even if you're not actively trying to put good players on your MLB roster. The losing is a byproduct of the restocking of the system. You want fans to come out and see wins and you want your players to play well in tough situations whenever they present themselves. If you want to start an "I always want to win" club, I'll join, but I don't think we'll have many members. BTW: I see Rutherford isn't much of a long ball guy despite being 6-foot-3. Does he project to at some point be a power guy? I see he hits doubles and must be pretty fast as he steals some bases. But he is 6-3 which would make you think he'd be a power guy. I do like the fact Rutherford and Eloy are tall. Like to see those type players rather than the grinder sized guys. I realize he's just out of high school and not trying to blast him.

QUOTE (spiderman @ Jul 19, 2017 -> 02:53 AM) Which prospects do the Yankees have in the top 100? Who are their top 10 prospects? Assuming that Kahnle, Robertson and Frazier are dealt to NYY, what should the White Sox expect to receive back? How bout that guy who got 3 hits against the Sox right after he got called up, forget his name. Get him and a catcher prospect and two live arms who are lower level and call it a day.

QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Jul 18, 2017 -> 06:36 PM) What grade do you give the 2009-2016 seasons? I'm busy right now. If you could look up the records for me post here and how many games we finished out, I could assess the grade. I enjoy contending for division titles, not being out of it in May/June. I'm not saying I'm against being great in the future after compiling all the prospects. I am saying it's very painful as a fan to have a team this bad and the wasted seasons have to be considered in assessing a grade to the rebuild. As far as how the Sox performed before the rebuild, I never said the team was doing it right. I know there have been a lot of horrible acquisitions through the years. I do think Robin was to blame for a lot of it as well and some awful acquisitions who didn't pan out.

QUOTE (Tony @ Jul 17, 2017 -> 08:40 PM) The Sox front office went out its way to destroy the roster of the MLB club. You were asked to rate the rebuild, yet in your judging criteria, you are putting the MLB teams winning percentage at the same level of the farm system's talent pool. I think the prospects guarantee the Sox a WS or two. I'm just saying as part of the process, you have to look at the lousiness of this season and tack on however bad the team is the next 2 seasons. I think the prospects make sense on paper and hopefully will star in the big leagues. That will be great if Moncada, Eloy and Robert rake the baseball to go with Avi and Abreu and Anderson hopefully having continued success. QUOTE (Tony @ Jul 18, 2017 -> 05:59 PM) Yet you have no problem handing out grades to things you just admitted you aren't interested or informed about. It's OK to sit some posts out, greg. Well, everybody was asked to vote. I gave it a 2 because I have to combine the current misery with what is coming, which is a few WS titles according to the experts, which will be great. But now I say if you combine both factors the rebuild 'currently' is a 5. That's because the current team is that bad. Remember all seasons are equal. The WS seasons are going to be great. But these horrific seasons have to figure in the overall equation/grade. QUOTE (pittshoganerkoff @ Jul 18, 2017 -> 06:04 PM) No, not everyone follows the prospects. But if you're team is in a rebuild, you have to pay attention to the prospects. And you don't have to go hunting for stats. They are readily available along with their ratings, a write-up, and projection on when they'll reach the majors. 2017 and 2018 are not about the big league club as much as they will be about developing for the future. If you want to ignore the prospects and open your eyes when they reach the majors, that's fine. But you can't say a rebuild is going terribly because of your own ignorance. Well, my paying attention to the prospects is assuming they are great. They are mostly all rated very high, baseball people love them, so that's good enough for me. Now when they get to the bigs is when fans like me get excited and 'judge' them. I trust that the key pieces acquired are difference makers and WS are in the Sox future. I'm not saying the rebuild is going terrible BTW, I'm saying the current big league product is beyond horrific. I think that's OK for me to figure into the overall grade. The prospects Hahn have acquired all make sense and all figure to provide October/November baseball to Chicago hopefully for a 5-8 year window.

QUOTE (Sox-35th @ Jul 18, 2017 -> 04:47 PM) There is a legitimate argument to be made that this rebuild is going so well that certain players in the minors are too good to leave down there. Yet Greg thinks this rebuild is a bad idea. If you're not a prospect guy, you're NOT a baseball fan. Sorry, but a lot of prospects become MLB players and the White Sox have successfully stockpiled so many that it's hard to fathom none of them panning out. The White Sox have the best minor league system in baseball based on raw AND top end talent. This rebuild is going swimmingly. It's almost go so good, the White Sox will only have one shot at a really high draft pick as guys like Moncada, Lopez, and Kopech can't be held down for much longer. I am a fan. If the rebuild works, I get to enjoy the success just as you do. May be unfair, but it's the case. You say if you are not a prospect guy you are not a baseball fan. I don't know about that. Not everybody follows that stuff heavily. Since my team is doing the rebuild, then yes I want Moncada, Eloy, all the pitchers the Sox acquired, Robert, etc., to do well. But frankly I am not interested in hunting for their minor league stats. If their highlight videos are right in front of me, sure I'll click on them. I tend to follow the big league club and wait for the reinforcements. When they come, I have the right to start following them just like any of the people who follow prospects all the way through the minors.

QUOTE (Rowand44 @ Jul 18, 2017 -> 04:44 PM) No. Can't assure that for any team in the history of baseball. This is just garbage. I don't think any mean post is "garbage." There has to be some frustration to go with all the optimism out there.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 18, 2017 -> 03:14 PM) Normally I am all for something like this, but it is starting to become unwatchable. The constant 3 1/2 hour games don't help the cause. Maybe Ricky should make it a point for his team to try to play speedy games. It's hard to believe how long it takes to play 'some' baseball games. I was listening to a millenial on the radio the other day who said he cannot watch baseball, just can't do it. So boring watching guys step out of the batters box and adjust their gloves, coupled by the snail's pace of the game.

QUOTE (pittshoganerkoff @ Jul 18, 2017 -> 02:14 PM) It's obvious that no one here is going to make you see the light, and maybe you'll have your day in 2020 when most of these prospects wash out and you can say "I told you so." That seems to be what you want. But chances are that the Sox will be good...maybe damn good in a couple years. This year and next will be painful, but I can deal with that to get what most of us expect in the future. I won't say I told you so because that won't accomplish anything. I'll just be sad if we always stink.

I am not a prospects guy. I like proven players, though not many hitters are truly elite and not many pitchers are truly elite any more. That said, a lot of you are prospects people so I ask you, since so many gave the rebuild a 9 or 10 in this thread: Taking all the talent the Sox have acquired into consideration and assuming we keep Abreu around as well as Rodon and Anderson ... can you assure me 1 to 3 World Series appearances only taking the guys we acquired and our homegrown minor leaguers into consideration as well as the fact the Sox are sure to get some more good prospects for David Robertson and maybe Melky? Can you assure me 1-3 World Series appearances and/or WS titles? I gave the rebuild 2 so far cause I need proof and I am not a prospects guy.