greg775

QUOTE (Sox-35th @ Jul 18, 2017 -> 04:47 PM) There is a legitimate argument to be made that this rebuild is going so well that certain players in the minors are too good to leave down there. Yet Greg thinks this rebuild is a bad idea. If you're not a prospect guy, you're NOT a baseball fan. Sorry, but a lot of prospects become MLB players and the White Sox have successfully stockpiled so many that it's hard to fathom none of them panning out. The White Sox have the best minor league system in baseball based on raw AND top end talent. This rebuild is going swimmingly. It's almost go so good, the White Sox will only have one shot at a really high draft pick as guys like Moncada, Lopez, and Kopech can't be held down for much longer. I am a fan. If the rebuild works, I get to enjoy the success just as you do. May be unfair, but it's the case. You say if you are not a prospect guy you are not a baseball fan. I don't know about that. Not everybody follows that stuff heavily. Since my team is doing the rebuild, then yes I want Moncada, Eloy, all the pitchers the Sox acquired, Robert, etc., to do well. But frankly I am not interested in hunting for their minor league stats. If their highlight videos are right in front of me, sure I'll click on them. I tend to follow the big league club and wait for the reinforcements. When they come, I have the right to start following them just like any of the people who follow prospects all the way through the minors.

QUOTE (Rowand44 @ Jul 18, 2017 -> 04:44 PM) No. Can't assure that for any team in the history of baseball. This is just garbage. I don't think any mean post is "garbage." There has to be some frustration to go with all the optimism out there.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 18, 2017 -> 03:14 PM) Normally I am all for something like this, but it is starting to become unwatchable. The constant 3 1/2 hour games don't help the cause. Maybe Ricky should make it a point for his team to try to play speedy games. It's hard to believe how long it takes to play 'some' baseball games. I was listening to a millenial on the radio the other day who said he cannot watch baseball, just can't do it. So boring watching guys step out of the batters box and adjust their gloves, coupled by the snail's pace of the game.

QUOTE (pittshoganerkoff @ Jul 18, 2017 -> 02:14 PM) It's obvious that no one here is going to make you see the light, and maybe you'll have your day in 2020 when most of these prospects wash out and you can say "I told you so." That seems to be what you want. But chances are that the Sox will be good...maybe damn good in a couple years. This year and next will be painful, but I can deal with that to get what most of us expect in the future. I won't say I told you so because that won't accomplish anything. I'll just be sad if we always stink.

I am not a prospects guy. I like proven players, though not many hitters are truly elite and not many pitchers are truly elite any more. That said, a lot of you are prospects people so I ask you, since so many gave the rebuild a 9 or 10 in this thread: Taking all the talent the Sox have acquired into consideration and assuming we keep Abreu around as well as Rodon and Anderson ... can you assure me 1 to 3 World Series appearances only taking the guys we acquired and our homegrown minor leaguers into consideration as well as the fact the Sox are sure to get some more good prospects for David Robertson and maybe Melky? Can you assure me 1-3 World Series appearances and/or WS titles? I gave the rebuild 2 so far cause I need proof and I am not a prospects guy.

QUOTE (knightni @ Jul 17, 2017 -> 04:54 PM) I'd estimate that Anderson would barely be in top 15 if he was in our minor league system right now. Sanchez and Saladino were never MLB starting caliber guys to begin with. They'd probably be way down in the 20s on the present list. Intersting comment. Is Anderson a potential bust? A likely bust? I would consider him a top five prospect right now in the organization until he proves unworthy.

QUOTE (knightni @ Jul 17, 2017 -> 04:24 PM) The current mlb team's success or lack-there-of, has zero to do with the success or failure of the rebuild. I don't see how trying to improve yourself through youth is a bad thing. The Sox have certainly had minimal success with less talented minor league guys and above average free agents. The 2000, 2005 and 2008 players - for the most part, never really had super talent. They just hit all cylinders at the right time. But in rating the rebuild you have to realize if the prospects don't lead the Sox to greatness then you have to combine the fact that during the prospects' maturation, the big league club was miserable. It's not like the MLB club will be .500 during the rebuild, which would have meant contending for a division title. The MLB club is miserable, so I feel it does have to do with the overall ranking. The prospects must succeed big time for the rebuild to be a success. As of now you have nothing to go on besides rankings so it is impossible to rank anything regarding the rebuild, except, on paper, Hahn acquired talent that is considered WS worthy. Hence I logically give the rebuild a 4 or 5 though personally at this stage my opinion stands at the 2 I gave it before. You get a 9 of 10 for the gathering of prospects that the baseball world says are can't miss ... but the current result on the field - total crap -- would be a zero. So that's a 4 or 5. Could it be a 9 at some point? Absolutely? But it will be a while.

QUOTE (harkness @ Jul 17, 2017 -> 02:19 PM) pretty impossible to rate it at this point. If you are objective that's absolutely true. There's no way to give it anything HIGHER than a 5. Why? Cold hard evidence. The current FACTS are the Sox have a horrible baseball team on the field right now. So in that regard the rebuild is frankly a zero. However, in the prospect world, the prospects push it to a 9. So average it out and you get a 4 or 5. The facts are that the team stinks right now and for some time to come. But the experts say the prospects guarantee a future WS or several WS. So you have to average both factions, folks. Like harkness said it is hard to impossible to rate it at this point because the prospects are amazing according to the analysts; the current team is so bad it is beyond belief. If the prospects don't pan out, the current team's lousiness would forevermore deem the rebuild a failure.

QUOTE (FT35 @ Jul 17, 2017 -> 02:55 PM) Exactly. Many people have confused our rebuild with a "fire sale." This is not a fire sale as much as an asset reallocation project. We are simply transferring present value to the highest probability of future value. I can't believe I just read this. I never heard anybody speak corporatese in real life, outside of a meeting of suits. An asset relocation project? I'm speechless, but you should be working for the White Sox and making big bucks.

QUOTE (Tony @ Jul 17, 2017 -> 03:34 AM) The "issue" with Garcia is if he were to keep these numbers up, when the Sox are "projected" to be ready to go, he will be 28-29 and very expensive to extend. With that said, I wouldn't be so quick on the "trade Avi" front. The Sox have invested a ton of time into him, and they still don't really know what they have in him. Because of that, I'd argue he has more value to the Sox than 29 other teams. Is the plan to only win 2-4 WS titles with young guys? Hope they are SO talented we just blow away the opposition? It seems to me teams that win WS often have a few veterans to splice in with the young studs. Royals had Zobrist and Wade Davis and some other older guys. Didn't the Giants have a few oldies like Uribe? The Cubs had Zobrist too as well as some veteran pitchers. If the Sox are unwilling to pay big bucks to anybody (like the Royals) they are going to have to copy the Royals financial strategy when they won their one title. That's all they are getting out of their run, though they did get in two WS. So the Sox already signed Anderson for a few years just as the Royals signed a handful of guys a few years back like Perez for a while. My question is ... are the Sox going to win 2-4 WS with only young players who will be winning the WS before they reach free agency? Will the Sox revolutionize baseball by winning WS titles with one of the lowest payrolls in history? Or will they have to suck it up and actually pay the piper on some guys like a good closer, a good setup man, a veteran starter to go with all the young ones, and a Zobrist type guy to go with the younguns. Will Abreu or Avi be around? It seems to me everybody is suggesting we will win multiple WS with these young superstars and will be able to do it on the cheap. Every time somebody mentions $$ even for a guy like Avi or Rodon, people say no way we'll be able to sign 'em or want to sign 'em. The Cubs spent some $$$ to go with their youth. The Royals didn't.

QUOTE (Lip Man 1 @ Jul 16, 2017 -> 11:33 PM) To clarify: I'd like them to lose; with the youngsters, the ones who may still be around in two years showing some progression, some ability to grasp and execute the fundamentals. I'd like the vets to act like major league players and to play well enough that another team may be interested in them in trade. I love Lip Man!

QUOTE (elrockinMT @ Jul 16, 2017 -> 07:37 PM) You just can't be happy or satisfied with this team and any lead they may have. It is now 5-5 because of defensive lapses and Holland giving up homers You deserve credit for following each game as something that deserves to be tracked. Kind of silly to follow the games falling apart now that we dealt Q and really have one trainwreck rotation. Seriously can u envision us winning more than 20 games out of the final 70? This team doesn't have much to work with on the pitching/defense side of things. I guess we ultimately could outslug some teams. It's impressive u follow the games, El Rockin. What's our rotation gonna be next year? What do I have to look forward to?

QUOTE (kitekrazy @ Jul 16, 2017 -> 10:36 PM) At least where you can stomach watching them. I don't think I've watched an inning yet this year. Tempted to get MiLB. I definitely am not interested in watching an inning of Holland, Pelfrey or Shields on the mound. I usually go back at night and watch the Sox highlights on mlb. But I can't watch those 3 guys pitch one pitch. Really makes me sad.

QUOTE (striker @ Jul 17, 2017 -> 03:35 AM) Kahnle + Garcia to the Cardinals Isn't Garcia projected to be part of the rebuild? He's gonna be 28-29 when we are good again. Is Abreu gonna be the only piece we keep along with Anderson? If we are WS winners with an ENTIRELY rebuilt lineup and entirely new starting rotation and relief corps that will be wild.

QUOTE (Heads22 @ Jul 16, 2017 -> 09:13 PM) You asked the same thing about Dunn...maybe Holland likes playing baseball? If everyone that was mediocre retired, you wouldn't have the sport. But he's so bad. At least turn into a lefty specialist where you face only one batter per game. That year Dunn was hitting about .155 he did deserve the same question. A pitcher could have hit as well as Dunn and a position player could turn out the same crap on the mound Holland is trotting out there. At some point it's embarrassing. Can't believe a fan would want to subject themselves to watching Holland pitch. I guess when it's Holland, Shields and Pelfrey you have to be a huge fan of baseball to head to the Cell when they are pitching.

If you were Holland, what would be your motivation to not just retire? I know $$ means everything but he might get hurt out there. He's that bad. At the very least, become a specialist who faces one lefty when needed. Surely this post isn't offending anybody. There can't be any Holland fans on this board can there? Nice to see Avi bust out. If we lose, 0-3 since the trade; Cubs 3-0. Not that that matters, but interesting.

Q has really found a groove at this point of the season. He's been pitching as well as anybody out there the last few starts.

QUOTE (soxforlife05 @ Jul 16, 2017 -> 01:07 AM) How is it possible to overvalue a front of the rotation starter on the best non pre-arb deal in baseball? Left handed, no serious injury history, late bloomer/less mileage on the arm, good teammate? That is a priceless asset. Did Buehrle look dominant all the time throughout his career? Nope. LF is the easiest position to fill on the entire lineup. He doesn't play a premium position. If he's not a Stanton like player its a fail. FWIW Stanton was putting up 30-40 HR/yr seasons in A ball. He's also very far away from the majors. A ball teams don't even do scouting reports. I don't hate getting Jimenez but he's far from proven. Doesn't look like a dominant player to me yet. Needs to add some size and strength and then we can talk about 40 HR. Cease had TJS. You don't want pitchers with an injury history headlining these deals and he's another low minors guy to boot. We already have another TJS starter in Giolito but at least we got ML ready arm in Lopez and a good low minors arm in Dunning. I'd argue we got more for Eaton. It's probably a bad sign that I liked this deal way more than the Sale and Eaton deals. Cause I can be WRONG a lot. Just ask my wallet on the few excursions I make to Vegas. The reason I liked it is I do undervalue Q a bit. He was rather horses*** the first eight weeks of the season. I know we made excuses on here for him, errors, etc., some balls fell in, ducksnorts or whatever. But until he turned into the old Q with the 10 Ks and I think he was dominant one other recent game, Q was looking like just an OK pitcher. Remember the speculation that teams weren't at all convinced he was even a contender to be staff ace. Don't get me wrong. I do like Q, but ... Anyhow, I watched tape on Eloy and I liked the eye test (my eye test love has been wrong before). And even though prospect ratings are kinda bogus, I can fall for them as well and if Cease is the Cubs' No. 2 prospect behind Eloy, that's a team's 1-2 prospects for a very good, but not great pitcher. Anyhow, this is all wait and see. I will never change my opinion on prospects. They bust a lot. Just look at the list of Sox prospects that have busted that somebody put on one of these threads. I really don't know what you wanted to get for Q. Now if you wanted to simply keep him, I can accept that. But from everything we were reading, teams weren't lining up to give a ton of great prospects for Q.

QUOTE (WBWSF @ Jul 15, 2017 -> 09:03 PM) Another benefit of a low payroll is you have very little on the books in terms of long term contracts. Its easier to sell a team when you a team with a low payroll and no long term contracts on the books. When JR bought the team from Veeck in 1981 he walked into a situation with a low payroll and no long term contracts. Both of my sources tell me that JR will sell the White Sox within the next 2 years. There are at least 2 groups of people who want to buy the team. They will be buying a team with a low payroll and no long term contracts. Sweet on the team being sold. But ... if the Sox do this right and are a WS contender in 2 years and will be a contender for a 5-year window, why the hell would Jerry want to sell that?? Jerry loves baseball and if the Sox get dominant and he is healthy, he'll wanna smoke those victory cigars in the Bard's Room.

I haven't followed this tonight so I don't know if Frazier is still with the Sox. But Sox appear to have caught a break. The Boston and national media have picked up on the Frazier rumors and they are pretty much demanding the Red Sox pull the trigger and give up two prospects between 20 and 30 in the Boston organization for him. They've got the advanced stats rolling and Frazier would have 15 more hits if he played at Fenway this year thus would have a very good batting average, etc. Let them play the stat game all they want. This is good news for the Sox (if he hasn't been traded yet) cause the pressure is on the Bosox to acquire Frazier by fans and media. And as we all know, Mr. Frazier ain't all that.

QUOTE (Alexeihyeess @ Jul 15, 2017 -> 06:12 PM) There is no doubt a business rationale for rebuilding an cutting payroll. It just so happens that what is best for the business and what is best for the ballclub have aligned and the Sox have taken the correct path. But it's naïve to say they embarked on these trades for the sole reason of improving the team's chances of long term on-field success. There is an ulterior motive. A rebuild and the publicity prospects receive nowadays definitely take the pressure off teams. No matter how bad the on-field product, you can talk about how in 2 years the team will be dominant for a minimum 4-year window. Years ago, when a team sucked, it sucked.The fans wore paper bags and attendance sucked and without big TV deals, teams allegedly struggled. Now with all these prospects, a team like the Sox will be praised incessantly no matter what happens on the field currently. When you say White Sox now, the baseball world doesn't even think of the current lousy team, it immediately thinks of the dominance that is coming. Strange world we live in.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Jul 15, 2017 -> 07:01 PM) Btw, our starter was changed from Holland to Pelfrey tonight... I would love to see anybody in the Sox system replace Holland, Pelfrey and Shields in the rotation. I might get sick of the replacements as well, but damn, what a waste of space as they say. Not trying to flame, but can you think of a worse rotation in modern Sox history? Seriously, Holland, Pelfrey and Shields have absolutely no major league value, do they? Do any metrics of any kind suggest value? All three of them can in no way go deep in games. If they were smart they'd pull an Eckersley and ask to be relievers in AAA and see if they can learn that trade to extend their careers. If any of you are fans of those three I'd love to hear your comments. It's not nice to call people names so I'll just call all three "eminently expendable."

QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Jul 15, 2017 -> 04:44 PM) What's really going to make or break our rebuild is our ability to develop our young hitters. And in that area, I'm only giving us a 4/10 so far. Look at the K rates below for four of our top hitting prospects coming into the season: Moncada = 28.1% Collins = 27.3% Basabe = 24.6% Adolfo = 29.4% Those are horrific and there really hasn't been big signs of improvement. And honestly, nothing has really changed under Chris Getz, which greatly concerns me. Good post on the strikeout rates. The Royals announcers were saying the other day, however, that all hitters and teams care about now are home runs and that strikeouts are not considered bad any more. Just something to consider. Throughout baseball won't strikeouts continue to progress at an alarming rate with hitters only trying to mash it out of the park? That's why there are so many shifts. All they are trying to do is hit home runs and if they don't strike out and don't hit the home run, they usually just pull a grounder or pull a weak fly ball thus the annoying shifts.

QUOTE (WBWSF @ Jul 15, 2017 -> 04:55 PM) This is not a rebuild. Its simply a salary dump. The main objective is to have the White Sox with the lowest payroll in MLB in 2018 and 2019. When you have income of over $260 million a year and a payroll less than $50 million, you're looking at some enormous profits for the owners. JR did the same thing in 1998+1999. The team barely drew 1.3 million in attendance each of those years but they were 2 of the teams most profitable years with the low payrolls. If the so call rebuild works out, fine. Either way JR and his investors will be making some serious money. I realize that the White Sox are a business. The objective of any business is too make money.Still, I would rather have the team making money with a winning team than what we're going to be subjected to the next few years. Not a bad post, but in a debate, you would lose because of the Robert signing. That was a big-buck signing. I am sure it is easier for the owners to stomach a rebuild if they are saving money in the process. Your post is interesting as didn't the Miami Marlins do what you suggest after winning it all and they never really started spending money again, did they? But as far as this just being a salary dump. IF that was true and I don't think it is true (it is a nice part of the rebuild for the owners, though, making it less painful if they are making tons of $$$), then this rebuild would totally prove interesting. Cause if their sole purpose is lowest possible payroll, then as the young guys advance and make the minimum possible dollars, the Sox would have to dump all of the ones who pan out as they near free agency. Interesting post, but I think the Robert signing proves they want to win. Because they didn't have to get involved with him if they wanted to only reap huge profits. They still would be seen publicly as a team rebuilding step by step even without the Robert $$$s being spent.

QUOTE (Steve9347 @ Jul 14, 2017 -> 12:02 PM) Guys. GUYS! We have Yoan Moncada, Eloy Jimenez, and Luis Robert in our system. Three BLUE CHIP MOTHERF*CKERS. Oh, but we ALSO have STUD F*CKING ARMS, TOO. The future is bright. This is so much better than signing bad white players from the Reds and finishing 10 games under .500 while "competing". I hope those arms develop into 4 good to great starters out of the bunch and I'm including Rodon/Fulmer in the group. They were first-round picks. Hopefully Kopech, Rodon are a strong 1-2 punch for years. Pitching and defense is still key.