Chisoxfn

QUOTE(Mr. Showtime @ Jul 21, 2006 -> 05:13 PM) Looks good. Bout time you came out of the woodshed. Its been too long Ian.

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Jul 21, 2006 -> 05:12 PM) If we had last year's starting pitching and this year's offense...we'd be winning at an .800 clip. I'm hoping that this years starting pitching comes out in the 2nd half. I've consistently said that I expect our pitching to really pick things up and I see a pretty hefty streak of winning baseball in our near to immediate future.

QUOTE(Steff @ Jul 21, 2006 -> 02:11 PM) Yay! I second that.

I worked a full day for one of the few times this entire summer.

QUOTE(Pauly8509CWS @ Jul 20, 2006 -> 09:03 AM) Very strange, but Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers were amazing last year at the World, and I've heard good things about the Strokes live shows. I've seen the Strokes live twice (got a friend whose a ridiculous fan of em) and they are awesome live.

This article was written by Cowley who I think is one of the best in the biz at covering the Sox. Coop comments on a quote that Garland made about the staff being fatigued (in general I thought Garland was talking about the team, but I guess Coop took it another way). I really liked Coop's quotes and the firey way he approached the subject. I don't like teams or players making excuses (not that I'm saying Garland is, afterall, he is pitching well right now) and I prefer that they either admit they stink and need to do things better or forget the admitting part and just go out and prove that things are gonna be better. Here's a link to the article and some of my favorite quotes from Coop: http://www.suntimes.com/output/sox/cst-spt-sside20.html

QUOTE(BigSqwert @ Jul 21, 2006 -> 04:27 PM) You never know with relief pitchers. See Cliff Politte. I agree, that said Thornton has the type of arm that as long as he throws strikes he should be in good shape (and stays healthy). The same can be said for Jenks and I really feel the same can be said for Cotts. Many relievers have career years and they can just dissapear due to overuse but I think the real good ones stay relatively consistent and Cotts is a real good one, Jenks is a real good one and Thornton has the makings to be a real good one (we'll see if they can stay healthy though).

Flash I can't make the assumption that we know the exact specifics of why the O's turned down the deal. Maybe the Sox were asking for some other reliever in return because I don't think the deal was a Cabrerra for Garcia straight up swap (especially sine the first couple sentences mention the Sox getting a reliever plus some). The O's have a lot of young arms so what they need are some vets that could potentially pitch and like I said I have no idea what the specifics are and I doubt Rosenthal does either, but I do think the O's could have interest in Garcia and I see the Sox as the type of team that would love Cabrerra in the long term (so would a lot of teams though).

QUOTE(Flash Tizzle @ Jul 21, 2006 -> 03:54 PM) What's upsetting me the most about Vazquez and Garcia are both have been unable to atleast pitch ONE quality outing within two weeks. Not only have their efforts hurt our club, but their value has quickly dominished. All we need is for Garcia or Vazquez to respectively pitch ONE dominating game before the trade deadline. Atleast provide an organization on the fence another thought concerning their value. Wouldn't huirt if the Mets lost 6 or 7 straight entering the trade deadline, either. Here's the question flash, would Vaz or Garcia going out and throwing a complete game shutout (or 8 innings with 1 or 2 runs) make Kenny more willing to move him. Sure he could probably get a lot more value for them after just one really good start (cause teams see that they still have the abilities) but at the same time wouldn't Kenny be thinking the same thing (these guys have proven they could do it in the past and now he showed me that they could very well still do it and do it for us down the stretch). Its really why if Freddy or Javier have a really good start I can't see them dealt and if we don't get a pretty good offer for Freddy I don't see him getting dealt (a Pelfrey or Cabrerra involved in it plus a reliever) since I don't think the deal helps the Sox out as much as having Freddy turning things around could help the club. Just food for thought.

QUOTE(Colorado Sox Fan @ Jul 21, 2006 -> 08:44 AM) Phil Rogers mentioned the 1960 comparison a couple of days ago. The similarity he raised was: "the pitchers who did great in '59—Early Wynn, Bob Shaw—were expected to do the same thing the next year, but they couldn't. They were worn down from the innings, the complete games, it took to win the pennant. It takes a toll the next year." I like the moves that were made in the offseason. Vasquez looked like a good pickup. Thome is a great addition. The bullpen makeover has been a wash. Difference is, last year we ran away from everyone. This year, Tigers and Twins are fighting it out with us. I liked this comparison and I thought it was an interesting read. I also think the posters that mentioned how trading for Thome isn't what caused this (the losses of Marte/Viz/Duque) are not the reason this team isn't in 1st place right now, rather the ineffectiveness of our starters that were so dominant last year is. If we had last years offense with this years pitching staff we'd be horrible and lucky to be at .500.

QUOTE(soxpride77 @ Jul 21, 2006 -> 03:47 PM) I absolutely agree that Miller is better than Widger, but I would never give up Fields for him. It really doesn't matter anyways. Miller is not available. The Brewers are still in the hunt, and he is an important piece of their team. Don't worry, I'm almost positive Ninetrain was being relatively sarcastic. I do think he was trying to make a point about how bad Widger is and that getting a backup catcher could actually be the kind of shakeup this team needs. A backup should be out there, but I think Kenny wants to make sure he is able to get a good character and clubhouse guy first (and I don't think we'd have to give up anything of major value...heck Arnie Munoz should be able to get you some sort of catcher). In general I'd give up guys like Munoz, phillips (maybe not for a backup catcher) who you will probably lose at the end of the season via the Rule V draft or via minor league free agency.

QUOTE(Kalapse @ Jul 21, 2006 -> 03:32 PM) Actually I believe Matt Thornton is still an automatic resign, he hasn't even hit arbitration yet. Meaning he still has all of his arbitration years remaining. He'll be under Sox control for awhile. Making him an absolute steal for the Sox. Glad Kenny was able to get a guy with his type of ceiling for Borchard. These are the types of deals that Kenny is so good at. He'll take a guy without much value to the Sox and move him for a guy with a lot of upside who needs a change of scenery. Aaron Miles for Juan Uribe Trading for Damaso Marte (giving up Guerrier, whose now with the Twins to get him) Trading for Thornton Heck even when we got Cotts in the Koch trade we did pretty well on that name. But that was a bigger deal and obviously Koch didn't pay off for us.

QUOTE(Felix @ Jul 21, 2006 -> 03:28 PM) I don't think its realistic at all, simply because I think that KW won't trade BA. Aaron Rowand was made available because of Anderson's prescene, and KW traded away his real competition for the future CF in Chris Young, despite the fact that Young is widely considered one of the top 25 prospects in the league, and has a much better future than Anderson. KW is clearly a huge Anderson fan, and to trade him away now, of all times as he's getting better and better at the plate, just doesn't make any sense to me. I tend to agree with you that BA is near untouchable still. That said the right offer comes along and KW will trade anyone (and thats the right decision). I know I wouldn't deal Anderson for just anyone, nor would I deal McCarthy for just anyone. I think both have a chance to be all stars and upper echelon players at there respected positions for a long time.

QUOTE(iamshack @ Jul 21, 2006 -> 03:23 PM) Yeah, Cabrera gave up 4 in the first, and then shut us down for either 5 or 6 innings after that. However, Peter Angelos is ridiculously difficult to deal with. He is also PARANOID when it comes to players and possible injuries. I don't think Freddy would pass his smell test the way he is throwing. Additionally, while the O's may eventually get fed up with Cabrera, they have a pretty deep stable of young pitchers, so I doubt they would really want Garcia back. I wonder if we inquired about Tejada when we asked about Cabrera... Ok good, Cabrerra has a great arm but I think he had an injury or two as well, so its not like they would be giving up a guy with a perfect medical history either. I could buy the idea of this move cause it gets Kenny a guy who could pitch in the pen now (if the Sox thing he's ready for that) yet become a starter a year or two from now (plus we DID have interest in him this off-season). The only thing left is which reliever they'd also get cause I think any deal of Freddy would involve a reliever (unless they think Cabrerra could be pretty good out of the pen now...but thats a bit risky, especially considering his command issues; you get him to throw strikes and stay healthy and this guy is a #1 on a lot of teams or a #2 on good teams). And no there is no guarantee Coop can fix things, but you gotta like that arm. Oh and in regards to the O's rotation...they have Russ Ortiz, so I think they could use a legit veteran. I realize its great to have young starters, but just ask the Tigers how much it means to have a legit vet in the rotation (Kenny Rogers) since they can really teach young guys how to pitch. What about Garcia for Latroy Hawkins and Cabrerra, maybe we throw in a prospect of sorts, even a Sean Tracey type. I could buy reasons why the O's do it and reasons why the Sox do it. The Sox may be giving up a bit, but Cabrerra's upside may be worth that. The one thing that concerns me about Hawkins is that his strikeout numbers are ridiculously low (he was always a strikeout guy for as long as I can remember him).

QUOTE(Gregory Pratt @ Jul 21, 2006 -> 03:16 PM) I'm surprised by the Garland love, and by the lack of any mention of Randy Johnson. I think you're right on about Pedro, Jason. I thought for a long time RJ was over-rated a bit. Sure he was good and sure he got a ton of strikeouts but for a long time he completely choked in the big games (IIRC he was pretty bad with the Mariners in the post-season). However he had a few absolutely sickening years (in a good way). But thats coming from the person who thinks Nolan Ryan is a bit over-rated. No doubt the guy had an amazing arm and was a strikeout machine, but I think at times he was overly interested in getting the strikeout and because of that he gave up a few more runs than he should have. I should note that when I saw Ryan pitch it was more towards the end of his career for the most part (such a long career it was too).

Was it Cabrerra that had a rough start against the Sox in the first inning, but than pitched real well the rest of the game? If so sign me up on Cabrerra but I don't see what we'd offer them. I could see the O's having interest in a guy like Freddy, especially if they think he'll be fine a year from now. You got to have a few quality vets to go with there young rotation, but the Sox would also have to get a bullpen piece from the O's.

QUOTE(Frankensteiner @ Jul 21, 2006 -> 03:09 PM) I hear what you're saying, but is it worth it to be stubborn about his value when you're in the middle of a pennant race? As you said, he might be fine next year, but what about his 86 mph meat balls when we're chasing the Tigers? This team is built to win now; we should take advantage of it. McCarthy would probably give us a better chance at winning but there's no way Ozzie starts him with Garcia still on the team. And I disagree about being sure of Garcia regaining his velocity. We should decide whether or not we're interested in winning trades or winning in the playoffs. I don't think McCarthy necessarily gives us a better chance. I think its a major crap shoot because of the amount of starts its going to take Brandon to build his stamina, mixed in with the amount of added stress that would put on the pen. At least I know Freddy is in the condition to throw innings and if he gets shelled so be it. I do think a lot of this will come down to whats going on with Freddy and the Sox know more about that than we do. So if he is moved there will be a reason behind it, especially if we don't get what I'd consider fair value for him (and we know thats more than what some people feel it should be). As far as the poster suggesting a vaz trade, I wouldn't be for that as I'd trade Garcia before I traded anyone else on the staff. I can see where moving Garcia and getting Bmac in the rotation (assuming you get value for Garcia) could pay off, its risky but it could pay off, but keeping Garcia while also trying to get Bmac's stamina back up is a risky proposition.

QUOTE(danman31 @ Jul 21, 2006 -> 03:11 PM) I liked Maddux before he went back to the Cubs. Tim Hudson is probably right behind him. Jon Garland #3. Kind of a sad list lol. I didn't realize you liked Garland so much. Garlands one of my fav's to watch, but not quite ahead of guys like Liriano and Santana. Mulder is another one I like (similarities to Buehrle). Another couple of my fav's were Langston/Finley/Abbott (watched them for a few years in Anaheim; As a kid I really modeled my pitching styles after them; please no abbot jokes; and yes I'm a lefty which is part of the reason I liked that trio so much)

No particular order: Greg Maddux Roger Clemens Pedro Martinez (in his prime, never saw anyone better in my lifetime and I'm convinced that at his best no one was ever better) Next Class: Mark Buehrle Johan Santana

QUOTE(Frankensteiner @ Jul 21, 2006 -> 02:57 PM) I think the Phillies will beat you to the punch with the "thanks but no thanks." I mean, Garcia can't even get us Duaner Sanchez right now. You're really overvaluing Garcia at this point. Thats fine, I'd rather keep him than give him away for free. I've seen enough out of him that makes me think he'll still be the pitcher he has been. Maybe not this year, but I see him being fine over the long haul and I actually have some confidence after the final couple innings of his start against the Yanks. My thoughts are don't ever sell low, so if you could get respectable value for Garcia fine, otherwise hold onto him because this is a guy thats been pretty damn good his entire career and still has plus breaking stuff and I'd have to think (unless he's hurt) he'll get that velocity back (especially if some of what he's doing is by choice). I'm not sure if the velocity will come back this year, because I think he was out of shape and than when you mixed that in with him getting ready earlier than usual for WBC play it really mixed for a bad combination.

QUOTE(NorthSideSox72 @ Jul 21, 2006 -> 01:13 PM) Avoiding rap music. And country.

QUOTE(Heads22 @ Jul 21, 2006 -> 02:12 PM) Maybe it's last year, but I just trust Neal more. Ya, I still go with Neal, especially since he owns Righties and lefties. Thorty is pretty darn good too though.

QUOTE(Kalapse @ Jul 21, 2006 -> 02:44 PM) Yes, I totally agree with all of this, there's just no way I want him in the rotation this year. I think he'd be perfect in the long relief role though and would love to pickup a pitcher with his upside but not at the expense of two starting pitchers. I'd trade Garcia for any reliever as long as it meant we also got a pretty good prospect in return. Garcia is a proven commodity and I wouldn't deal him for nothing. If all we are getting is a Tom Gordon in return than i say thanks but no thanks. If we get a guy that can help us now, plus a good arm for the Future (since Kenny likes knowing he has 6 starters and thats a good thing) than its a viable move. Tom Gordon isn't going to get this team into the post-season, 5 quality starting pitchers will (I understand moving Bmac to the rotation and replacing Freddy may help that cause, but Freddy is more proven and Brandon going out and starting for a while would be rough on the pen since he wouldn't have near the durability or stamina needed to go deep into games).

QUOTE(Kalapse @ Jul 21, 2006 -> 01:12 PM) Chone Figgins is infinately better than Podsednik even with the down season Figgins is having AVG and OBP wise, he still has 37 SBs at 79% which is awesome especially compared to Podsednik's 29 and 70%. Figgins plays every position and all of them well with an excellent arm, his defense is FAR superior to Podsednik's in LF as well. Figgins is in a pathetic lineup this year, you plug him in between Anderson and Iguchi and you have yourself an elite leadoff man with offense, defense and especially versatility. I'm with Kalapse. As someone thats seen Figgins play on a regular basis for a few years, I can safely tell you that he is vastly better than Pods. Think of it as comparing a guy like Adam Dunn to Albert Pujols....sure Dunn hits Hr's at a similar rate but he doesn't do anything else as good. Figgins is better defensively (and can play multiple positions) and offensively he is a bit more versatile, especially considering he's a switch hitter who is a better bunter than Pods (still not a great bunter, but Pods SUCKS at bunting). Than you have the baserunner and the comparison isn't even close, Pods has been lousy on the bases since about the all star break of last year and this year most of his steals have came in games where he gets 3 of em. He can't steal on a consistent basis anymore and doesn't have near the success rate that a Figgins has. Figgins also has better bat control. In short, I'd be all over a Figgins trade, even if it means regulating Anderson to defensive replacement duties on the season (although I'm sure the Angels would want him). Also I must admit that 3 way deal is relatively realistic although the Sox are giving up a whole heck of a lot. Still I don't see the Angels trading away there leadoff hitter. If they could get Podsednik, Fields and someone else, maybe (especially if they could turn that someone else along with a prospect or two of there's into a Alfonso Soriano).

Dontrell's peripheal numbers aren't very good, but I do think he has good stuff. However he's in a major pitchers park and obviously playing in a league that isn't near as good offensively.