Chisoxfn

QUOTE(qwerty @ May 24, 2005 -> 11:34 AM) I have been looking too. Maybe it disappeared like that other thing we were looking for before? This is starting to piss me off. Anyway, why is it that on some of the old posts you can only see have of a thread? About half of the posts are not there and are blank. An example is this one. http://www.soxtalk.com/forums/index.php?sh...1&st=&p=entry I just went through that link and could see all the posts on all 5 pages? The only posts that should be missing was that month period where I screwed up doing an update and we had about a months worth of offseason posts that weren't backed up.

QUOTE(JDsDirtySox @ May 24, 2005 -> 01:47 PM) Put me down for Definitely wanting this deal to happen (though I know it never will). To get Eric Chavez would be amazing. I am a huge Joe Crede fan (unlike most of you), and I am excited by the thoughts of BMac in the rotation... but to add a guy like Chavez would be top notch. A Left Handed Heart of the Order Hitter who is the best defensive 3rd baseman in the AL. Bring On This Trade!!! I know its never gonna happen. I fall in your lines. I no longer like Crede though, but I think we all know I'm probably fan numero uno of Bmac. The guys a stud, that being said, Chavez would give this lineup some serious punch while the rotation still would have its front 5. If someone went down than Kenny would have the task of acquiring another starter, but that could be done (the Sox have a lot of chips now). Chavez is not only a stellar offensive 3rd baseman, but he's also a stellar defensive one and is just on the brink of entering his prime. Now I would counter and do everything I could not to give up Bmac, whether it would mean Crede, Anderson, Tracey or Crede, Anderson, Tracey and Diaz. I got a feeling Beane is going to want a bat (A's seem to have an assload of pitching prospects, although they could still take more pitching).

QUOTE(dasox24 @ May 24, 2005 -> 12:32 PM) Torra sounds good to me. Baseball America seems to like him, rating him as having the 5th best fastball and breaking ball, and 2nd best command of college pitchers in the draft. Plus, you gotta love the ERA (1.13) and WHIP (0.75), and he's got a good frame (6'3'', 225). Another guy that I like a lot is Stephen Head from Ole Miss. He's a lefty 1B/OF with some pop. His avg. is down a little this year at .308, but he doesn't have Seth Smith (high round pick last year) protecting him this year either. He's still got 16 HR's, though, and 58 RBI. Head is a guy who probably should of just went pro out of high school. It looks like he'll get picked around the same range. Two way player if I think right (also closes???). Projects more as a hitter though and definately has the pop. Slotted to go somewhere between the 2nd and 3rd round (more likely the 2nd and you never know a team could take him in the supplemental round).

Ya, I saw it last night too. I enjoyed it

QUOTE(quickman @ May 24, 2005 -> 10:00 AM) he is not arbitration eligble? I assumed he was, but lately I've seen everyone posting that he's a free agent so I just assumed I was wrong and that he doesn't have any more arb left.

QUOTE(AddisonStSox @ May 24, 2005 -> 09:59 AM) Jas, I see what you're saying, but why would a team be willing to trade for a guy with White Sox self-admitted swing issues if he's going to be a FA in the off-season anyway. It just dosen't make sense. The Sox are stuck with Joe in 2005. Unless he nets another 3B, trading Joe just doesn't make any sense. I'm just awe-struck by this Crede-trade talk. Bite the bullet and hope he produces some form of offense in this, his last year with the Sox. Am I alone in these thoughts? Yes, when your contending you don't just bite the bullet. Crede has value because a team could get him, see whether they can fix his swing and than offer him a deal and get him signed. I highly doubt he's going to be getting big money so why not. Plus he's a guy that could grow in with a team who still think he's got some talent and he does have talent. He's just never going to go anywhere unless someone really adjusts his swing. If a team was getting Crede, a prospect like Tracey, and than a guy like Munoz/Diaz they are getting two guys that would probably be on the major league team from day one (Crede/Munoz or Diaz) and than a guy with good potential. Now I wouldn't give up all that for Polanco, but if you get yourself another quality player in return I would.

QUOTE(AddisonStSox @ May 24, 2005 -> 09:57 AM) Get the f outta here. What the hell are you going to do at 3B in the meantime? This is just crazy talk. If you dealt Crede, you'd be getting another 3b in return, ie Polanco.

QUOTE(AddisonStSox @ May 24, 2005 -> 09:54 AM) ...so quick to send off Crede. Joe is this team's third-baseman. Does anyone really foresee Crede playing for another team by season's end? I sure don't. Yes, I guarantee he will be. He's a FA at the end of the year and his swing his god awful. Crede shouldn't be the starter but the Sox are stuck cause they don't have any other options. Crede still has value though and him packaged with a prospect or two could get you more than just a stop gap 3rd baseman. I'm done with Crede, absolutely done with him.

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ May 24, 2005 -> 08:53 AM) Also keep in mind that there's a clause in Clemens's contract that stipulates that if he's traded from the Astros, he's owed another $3 million. So if a team wants him they're not paying 7 or 8 million, they're paying like $11 million. And in my mind it would be well worth a world series ring with the way he's pitching this year. That being said, I don't think Houston will be dealing him.

QUOTE(YASNY @ May 24, 2005 -> 07:41 AM) I'm looking at Polanco as a replacement. I don't think they'll bench Crede for him, permanently. Polanco is decent, but he's on the downside of his career, so his career stats are not what you expect in the future. I know Ozuna is 30 or so years old, but I just don't believe Polanco would be enough of an upgrade to justify trading 3 players and adding his salary. Getting rid of Timo would be a bonus though. If the Sox made that deal, I think that Crede would be a part of it and if Tracey was involved it would be a larger scale move in the sense of Billy Wanger (maybe...Sox seem to be playing for this year and Wagner has a ridiculous contract but will be free at seasons end). If you could work out a Crede/Tracey/One More Good prospect and than a mid tier guy like Diaz/Munoz for Polanco, Wagner and a few million in cash I'd pull the trigger.

QUOTE(aboz56 @ May 24, 2005 -> 08:28 AM) If you look at the prospect handbook, it says he has two average to above average pitches in the fastball and slider and that his changeup has a chance to be average. Not a very glowing review. Also he is not ranked anywhere in the top 100 prospects by Baseball America. Also, Cleveland, the WORST hitting team in the AL, nailed him. The only reason he isn't ranked there is because of the whole age scenery. For whatever reason whan that happens very rarely do prospects get as much love in the books. I've seen Santana pitch more than a few times and the kid is a stud. He'd be the 2nd best prospects in the Sox system (in terms of pitching) and would definately give Brandon a run for his money (better pure stuff) but nowhere near the pitching prowess of Brandon (although Santana does have solid command and his changeup has only gotten better since those reports).

QUOTE(qwerty @ May 23, 2005 -> 10:51 PM) Joe randa... then no one else that we would care about. I know someone else mentioned a hypothetical in regards to one of Tex/Blalock but I'd be willing to give up most of the farm and a pitcher of Contreras caliber if the Rangers were interested. It gives the Sox both a short term and long term hitter and as long as Bmac wasn't one of the prospects the Sox could pencil him into the rotation. Aubrey Huff is another possibility. I'd like it if KW could keep Anderson and Bmac, aside from that I'd be more than willing to move everyone else and I could even understand moving the two big studs for the right guy. Of course the stop gap scenario also works, but if this team is in contention mode and even better competing for the best record in baseball near the deadline, and Crede is hitting in the .230 to .240 range I'd at least call up Texas, Oakland (Chavez), Detroit (Inge isn't all that bad and would be cheaper), TB (huff, although he isn't that grand defensively) and find out what it would take to get those guys.

QUOTE(tempe85 @ May 23, 2005 -> 10:45 PM) Wow I actually read this was the first time all year the Sox were shut out.... that's impressive (for both the Sox and Santana). My Angels have been shut out.... let's see.... hmm... frig I lost count at 20. LOL Haha, heck, its only the 2nd time all year that the Sox haven't had the lead at one point in the game. But ya Angels offense has been atrocious. I shuddered when they signed Cabrerra and Finley instead of opting for Beltran. I just didn't think it made sense. They gave both of them too much money and if your gonna divy up that type of money I'd rather of had Beltran and Eckstein (who I wasn't the ultimate fan of, but he's gonna cost half the price per season without giving up a long term deal and put up better offensive numbers while playing good d, albeit not great d). I don't know how many games you get to tempe, but the other thing I notice about the Angels...they have the slowest working pitching staff in the bigs (no doubt about it). I'm always at the games wondering who I got to bribe to get some guys that flat throw strikes (I'm so excited I can see Buehrle pitch, he's as good as it gets to watch, imo...well him and Mulder). Angels are going to make it but the team isn't as good as last years. They have better pitching simply because Colon is pitching like the Colon of old, but Washburn and Lackey aren't near as good as they are pitching (I can't stand Washburn, he's a 1 pitch pitcher) while Lackey hasn't been anything since that playoff run (he usually has one hot streak a season). Byrd is solid and Escobar has dynomite stuff (and only Clemens gets worse run support, lol).

This is a battle of the fastest pitcher in the majors against what I would deem the slowest pitcher in the majors (Contreras is right there with Colon though). If its any consolation one of my friends thats going to tomorrows game has a hex on Colon. He's seen him pitch 9 times and he's pitched awfully in every game but one. Whenever he goes to the Angles games, they lose...so I told him he was definately going when the Sox were in town

QUOTE(Gene Honda Civic @ May 23, 2005 -> 10:41 PM) You say that like it's a bad thing.... That's actually an improvement. Lol, I was about to say that. He hit something like .190 in April Cheat I think a whole lot of us are going to be really happy in a week when Gload and Thomas are back...it means no Walker and no Timo. And if its somehow Willie that gets demoted, I may just cry

QUOTE(NUKE_CLEVELAND @ May 23, 2005 -> 10:36 PM) Yup and those 0-2, 1-2 counts are coming from us letting a first pitch fastball right over go by for strike 1. Now forgive me, I didn't see the 1st 4 innings so I don't know what Santana was throwing than but from the time I turned the game on Santana was also throwing 1st pitch changeups for strikes and when he was throwing that fastball he wasn't throwing it down the tube. He was painting the corner on the 1st pitch fastball and when a guy locates his fastball, its not a pitch you want to swing at (especially on the 1st pitch, imo). Now I'm with cheat and tempe in terms of advance scouting. Since everyone seems to say he was pitching all day on the outside portion, which means you gotta start noticing that and adjusting to it. If this is what he does down in the minors as well as in the majors you should at least have that idea. The Sox definately didn't have that idea. Thats not to take anything away from Santana though, its not easy pinpointing your stuff like he was tonight and he was throwing his fastball, change, and sliders for strikes.

QUOTE(1919 @ May 23, 2005 -> 10:09 PM) Hey Tannerfan, Give Vizcaino a break. How about sending Crede to parts unknown? Did he deserve the error tonight or what? Welcome Aboard

QUOTE(NUKE_CLEVELAND @ May 23, 2005 -> 09:17 PM) Its amazing how observant fans can identify things like this but certain hitting coaches, who have the luxury of film and scouting reports, and a good many of the players cannot. Easier said than done. I pitched for a reason when I played. It was because I coudln't hit worth a lick. I understood what you should do with different pitches and could recognize them, but for the life of me I coudln't do anything aside from pull the ball (its why I was such an awful hitter). Hitting a baseball is the hardest thing of any sport, imo. You have to adjust between a 94 MPH fastball or an 80 MPH offspeed pitch (changeup) plus a curve or slider. Good luck. Walker has preached and does preach going opposite way. Now Crede and a few others may not be great hitters, but that isn't because Crede isn't doing the work (its because his swing just isn't a fit for the majors, imo) nor is it because Walker is telling him to pull the ball (no hitting coach would preach that).

QUOTE(tempe85 @ May 23, 2005 -> 09:18 PM) I am an Angels fan but don't worry I don't plan to cause a rukus Anyways I think it was just a combination of him being really good and that no one knows anything about him in the majors (no scouting reports) which allowed him to have a really good game. Hey no worries from me. My dad and I have season tickets to the Angels (they are my 2nd favorite team...next to my beloved Sox). Plus its always good hearing good insite from fans of other teams. Tomorrow I got a feeling the Sox will put up a bit of a fight but the Angels don't give up. They are a lot like the Twins in the sense that they do all the little things to help them win. For example they came up with clutch hits whenever they were needed and it was the difference. I guess this was Santana's last start as I know Hudler/Pyschioc mentioned that Escobar was going to come off the DL. On an Angel related sidenote, can you even stand listening to Hudler? A few years back when Hudler was recovering from his aneurism (I think thats what he had) Mark Langston was in the booth and man was that just a total joy to listen to as opposed to Hud.

QUOTE(NUKE_CLEVELAND @ May 23, 2005 -> 10:06 PM) As opposed to how many breaking pitches away that guys like Crede waved at and missed? Watching the highlights (if you can call them that ) again on MLBTV I counted 7 strikeouts on off speed stuff between 80-85. 6 of those Ks were junk low and away. Thats what happens when a guy is locating and your always finding yourself down in the count 1-2, 0-2. Your in a defensive mode and the breaking pitch looks like it may be close and bam you swing and it ends up being outside.

Hey Tempe...welcome aboard I'm guessing your an Angel fan? Just going off the tempe (considering thats where the Angels play there spring ball). Anyway your right and I know a lot of people just looked at his ERA and thought chump. Santana isn't just the best minor league pitchers in the Angels system but he's one of the best in the bigs. I still think he's up a little early but he's in the same class as the Sox Brandon McCarthy in the sense that he has the ability to come up and make an immediate impact.

QUOTE(DonkeyKongerko @ May 23, 2005 -> 09:07 PM) I swear some of you guys must cream yourselves every time we get a hit to the opposite field. That and the genius scouting report on Santana of him being a "crappy pitcher" has me believing you guys were just waiting for a chance like this to spew all this built up hatred for pull hitters. From TV, I couldn't tell how "hittable" Santana's fastball was but maybe you can tell me since you seem to have faced him before. I won't argue that some of these guys' approaches suck (see Crede, Uribe) but jeez. Yeah I guess corpseball is back because we finally got shutout by a pitcher with wicked stuff on the West Coast. Well personally I creamed myself when Konerko jammed himself to go opposite field. When Konerko is doing that you know he's very close to breaking out. I absolutely love it when a guy is going opposite field because when he's doing that he's going to start getting pitched inside and get pitches to drive. That being said it wouldn't of mattered today. Santana's fastball had juice on it and wasn't straight. Plus when your hitting your spots its gonna be tough regardless of what kind of stuff you have. Nothing the Sox could of done with this one, except have JG throw a shutout too However, I do think its quite obvious (even for me and I love Crede) to notice that Crede flat out won't cut it in the majors. He may turn into a .240 hitter with 20 HR's but thats about as good as it will get unless he makes some drastic changes to his swing. Slow, slow, slow. And than there is Everett who has looked terrible this entire month. I don't have the splits, but all I have is what I've watched and I've seen him chase way too many pitches down and out of the zone because he's guessing fastball on everything cause its the only way he can actually catch up to the fastball. Now I think Everetts a good guy, in fact I think he's hillarious, but right now he looks totally lost and its going to be nice to have Frank back (and I dont' even like this Frank Thomas...I liked the Frank of old that would hit for AVG). This one is a slow plodding DH. Luckily he has an amazing eye and some power but those just aren't the type of players I personally like (what else can I say, lol).

QUOTE(Jabroni @ May 23, 2005 -> 09:05 PM) Cuz Everett was a hot mofo early in the season and Iguchi was getting on base twice a game. Now he looks horrible at the plate. Timo can go swim with the sharks. He is awful. Timo at 1 million and Ben Davis at 1 mill makes me want to flat out puke. The Sox aren't going to be able to get anything for the two of them. I guess they give the club some depth but for pete sakes Spidale could come up and be as productive as Timo for 1/3 of the price.

QUOTE(southsideirish71 @ May 23, 2005 -> 09:01 PM) If they approached this like they approach tough pitchers and tried to make contact and not over complicate things by trying to hit long shots. If on 3-1 Everett wasnt trying to park one, instead of making contact and moving the runner over. I give the angels pitcher credit. He hit his spots on the outside corner. We will see a steady diet of this until our hitters learn that there is other parts of the park besides left and right field bleachers. Everett is lousy and has been for 90% of this season. The past month I could count on one hand the type of quality ab's he's had, one of which actually came late in todays game when he worked a full count and fouled off a good number of pitches. It was what I'd deem a productive out. Of course to me he's lost some mustard on his swing and can't catch the fastball like he once could. Everett, Crede, Timo...3 guys who in my mind shouldn't be starting. Now Everett is better than some options, but no one is going to tell me that Brian Anderson isn't capable of hitting .245 with a little power. The only thing he doesn't have is the experience and veteran know how of a guy like Carl at this point. Plus Anderson is one hell of a defender. Luckily he's tearing the cover off the ball in AAA and could be a definate option later in the year (if he 's not dealt for a 3rd baseman). All that being said, this team can win with those holes, and if Frank comes back into close to decent form it will be one more step forward.

QUOTE(Jabroni @ May 23, 2005 -> 08:57 PM) Even better news is we won't have to see Everett playing everyday once Frank is back. How Everett has as many RBI's as he does I'll never know. Its not like Konerko who has actually hit the ball hard. Everett has looked awful in pretty much every at bat I've seen him in the past month and somehow has gotten a few clutch hits. Oh and Timo...good riddance, that turd should be gone once Gload/Thomas are back. With those two back and Everett into a PH/Role playing spot than the Sox will have a drastically better lineup with Crede the lone hole (and I call him a hole...have you seen the HOLE in his swing). I should add, this isn't something I'm saying because the club loss. This is just something I've seen for too long and its to the point where its no longer a slump, but more a trend.