CaliSoxFanViaSWside

QUOTE (Tony @ Sep 13, 2017 -> 04:12 PM) Avi will be 27 for the 2018 season, is hitting .330 in mid September and has the highest batting average against LHP in MLB. I think he needs to be put into that group. I'm at the point where I'm going to be mildly upset if Abreu and/or Garcia are dealt for a lackluster package. .325 but feels like .330

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Sep 13, 2017 -> 05:41 PM) Then he is insane to come over. He can wait 2 years and get 9 figures. Well that is pretty much what everyone is saying. Otani says it's not about the money just playing against the best which is why every team is pretty equal in the chance to get him theoretically since he probably has his own ideas about who he would rather play for.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Sep 13, 2017 -> 05:19 PM) I have given you examples, you keep choosing to ignore them for the idea that performance somehow outweighs contract law. Ask Joe Smith how that worked out for him. It all boils down to one central theme. There are rules in place that govern contract negotiations for specific situations. MLB is already on record as saying they will protect the integrity of this process. MLB has already acted in a spot where the integrity of the process was violated by voiding contracts. The NBA has also acted in voiding the contract of a #1 draft pick superstar free agent who exactly in the scenario we are talking about today had a secondary contract negotiated in violation of the leagues collective bargaining agreement and saw his contract extension voided by the league. Trying to imagine contract law as different because of some concocted scenario is what isn't valid. You cannot negotiate a major league contract extension while negotiating a minor league deal under the new collective bargaining agreement. Period. End of story. MLB is already on record as saying they won't allow it to happen. You are fully ignoring history here for no good reason. Unless you have some facts to back up your argument, this is all imaginary and not real. I have a distinct feeling that you would have argued for MLB in the Curt Flood and Andy Messersmith situations. MLB hasn't fared well when called to task about restricting earnings. I just want you to tell me you think that if Otani has a successful 1st year and gets an extension that MLB opposes that they will 100% void the deal and 100 % win a court case should one arise. I am perfectly willing to admit it's possible MLB wins because I am not one of the top labor law experts in the country but think I have more than held my own in these discussions with you.

QUOTE (ron883 @ Sep 13, 2017 -> 04:10 PM) This team looks good enough to compete for the WC or division next year. Indiana have some stats who are aging. Never know what happens in baseball. Sox will also have Kopech and eloy at some point. Rodon/Kopech/Lopez/giolito/ shields or guerrero or Stephens or Adams 1B abreu 2B moncada SS TA 3b Davidson/nicky/yolmer DH delmonico/davidson/abreu RF avi CF leury/engel LF nicky/eloy Supersubs yolmer/leury Bullpen - wing it. I think this team will be a pleasant surprise and the Sox very May well have a chance to compete. Who is this Indiana you speak of Mr. Inside Baseball ? I know you meant Indians but you mean that team with the AL record 21 game winning streak .? The Indians who have been without Kipnis, Brantley, and Andrew Miller for most of the streak ? That team who has outscored opponents by 101 runs in those 21 games ? Those Indians are the team the Sox can beat out for the division by winging it in the BP and young starting pitching still wearing diapers ?

QUOTE (greg775 @ Sep 13, 2017 -> 03:53 PM) Love this post, Scoots. Avi mania. Cooper is that good. Is he the only good coach in our organization? Not trying to flame or anger anybody, just asking cause Coop has a lot of success stories. Giolito was coming on strong in his last 4 or 5 starts in the minors. Heaping credit on Coop while asking is he our only good coach is naive. The Sox have a system wide pitching philosophy in place. SUre Cooper deserves credit but so do all the pitching coaches throughout the minor league system.

QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Sep 13, 2017 -> 05:07 PM) Is he allowed to do a 3 year opt out and skip the standard 6 year service time? I thought that wasn't allowed. That's what I said in one of my many posts 3yrs and an opt out. Not sure if the Cespedes comparison applies, since he was 25 at the time and under a different CBA. Unless you know more I can listen. I also used Cespedes as an example of how surprising things can happen but I didn't dare try to say their situations were the same .

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Sep 13, 2017 -> 03:47 PM) #1, source in bold. #2, IT HAS BEEN DONE, both by MLB and by the NBA. The MiLB vs MLB part doesn't matter. All contracts are subject to the commissioners office per the CBA. Did the Red Sox sue to over turn it? Did the Minnesota Timerwolves sue to overturn the Joe Smith ruling? That is two (actually six as Boston had five deals voided) examples of violations of CBAs where the governing body took exactly the action I am describing for exactly the reason you are describing here. Legally there is precedence, and the lack of a lawsuit only proves how strong the ability for MLB to void contracts is. #3, unless you can find a comparative contract to justify Otani by, you have no basis in reality. I have given you comps, cases, and examples of other contracts that you could get away with. You have given nothing except a quote from a source who you admit isn't a labor lawyer. It also misses the fact that pandoras box is already open. And yet you cannot point to 1 MLB contract ever voided after a successful 1st year of an international player in which a contract extension was offered.Other cases are not the same. As you said to me I will say to you unless you can find a similar player in similar circumstances you have no basis in reality. That is all we need to know. You are not a lawyer either. Nor am I. So we can argue about it until the cows come home. . It probably never happens but I think you and I won't be the only ones arguing this. We will see plenty of it soon enough. I think there's a chance MLB would void such a contract but it holding up is another thing. I will also add that 6 kids who sign for bonus money and have contributed nothing to a winning major league team is nothing like Otani having a good 1st season and contributing to the profitability of the parent club, I don't accept those comparisons as valid.

QUOTE (BlackSox13 @ Sep 13, 2017 -> 03:03 PM) Giolito pitched very well without his best stuff. Anderson, Avi and Moncada with good days. Lots to be happy about. I hope its pretty clear by now that Sox wins usually are a result of the young guys doing well. Earlier it was easy to accept losses because there weren't as many young guys around. Now the team is full of them . Difficult to have your cake and eat it too. Sox losses with youngsters playing well are a bit harder to achieve now.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Sep 13, 2017 -> 01:38 PM) The technicality doesn't matter. The office of the Commissioner holds extraordinary powers with their anti-trust exemption in place. They have already voided contracts for violations of these exact rules, without a single problem. They also have the precedent of Joe Smith's contract being voided in the NBA for negotiation of an extension in violation of existing rules. Everything lines up on the MLB side here. One point you tell me is the precedent has already been set and I ask you who and you tell me it doesn't matter. To me that means no precedent has been set if no one EVER in MLB under the current CBA has had their contract voided. It's not like I'm arguing something that is completely impossible. Your own article you posted said the same thing that I am arguing about. It won't be easy to void a contract extension IF Otani has a successful year one. If there is a legal battle involved it won't be a walk in the park for MLB to win especially if they can 't prove a handshake agreement was in place before he signed with that team in the first place.\ I will keep using that quote even if it was written by a layman and not a labor lawyer because it points out the whole crux of the matter. "The Pandora's box of MLB intervening in contracts, though, is one that it dare not open, not in the name of enforcing a rule as flaccid as the international restrictions may prove to be".

QUOTE (Scoots @ Sep 13, 2017 -> 02:28 PM) What a fricking outstanding season for Avi. The whole damn year. Pushing that average back to .330 now. Wasn't down to nearly .300 like a month or so ago? Just amazing. Avi seems like he gets 2 hits almost every game..325 now actually.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Sep 13, 2017 -> 01:38 PM) The technicality doesn't matter. The office of the Commissioner holds extraordinary powers with their anti-trust exemption in place. They have already voided contracts for violations of these exact rules, without a single problem. They also have the precedent of Joe Smith's contract being voided in the NBA for negotiation of an extension in violation of existing rules. Everything lines up on the MLB side here. You see it your way . I see it mine. It's just a slippery slope MLB would rather avoid in my eyes. If a reasonable and justifiable contract extension for a successful 1st year Otani where the Sox could prove how his presence gave them huge financials gains and those gains were reflected in his contract. , MLB would be hard pressed to do something unprecedented legally like restrict his earning opportunities when that raise would be completely justified.

thank you ump Tyler and Bummer !

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Sep 13, 2017 -> 01:27 PM) The precedent has already been set. They can and have done it. If a team puts MLB into the position of doing it again, they will. Who's contract has ever been voided at the major league level ?

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Sep 13, 2017 -> 01:21 PM) I guess the way I view it is is that teams have a finite supply of resources, and if your chance is 0.1% that you are going to acquire a certain asset, you should spend a proportional amount of those resources on that asset. Do your due diligence, make a call to his agent, spend a little bit of time working him, but if there is no positive feedback, give up on it and move on. And that is totally acceptable.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Sep 13, 2017 -> 12:59 PM) I think you are making this out to be my opinion. There are decades of contracts that serve at the basis for what can and can't be done for Otani. He is going to be signed as a young amateur free agent. When he is brought to the majors it will be the same as if he were any other player player recalled from the minors to the majors for the first time off of an MiLB contract. MLB has already flat out stated that a team can't have a secondary deal in place for a contract that is out of line with what has been done in the past. https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/why-this...this-offseason/ If historicals dictate that players top out at $3-5 million in their first three years, and Otani gets a 3 year $60 million extension within his first year, when the best ever extension for a player within his first year is Tim Anderson at 6years/$32.5m, they will force MLB to act. They don't want to void contracts, but they did exactly that to Boston voiding their entire international signings class in 2015 when they voided 5 contracts AND they banned them from high dollar signings on top of it as a penalty for breaking these exact rules. [/indent] You actually made my argument stronger with that article with what is in that article " The Pandora's box of MLB intervening in contracts, though, is one that it dare not open, not in the name of enforcing a rule as flaccid as the international restrictions may prove to be". That is exactly what I have been saying. The legal implications involved in voiding a contract for a Major leaguer not some Boston 16-18yrs olds would be huge and want to be avoided at all costs.

QUOTE (soxfan2014 @ Sep 13, 2017 -> 12:52 PM) Except in that situation, the A's offered the most annual salary. That's what made it a big surprise. We don't have that luxury here. Again not my point. Oakland signed him because they were willing to do what other teams were not willing to do. His agents were looking for a 10 yr deal or a shorter deal that granted him free agncy as soon as possible. Oakland landed him because they were willing to do what no other team was willing to do. I have been arguing that if the Sox are willing to make him a starting pitcher and give him 400+ AB's in a season, if that's what Otani wants to do, then that will surely limit the teams willing to go after him and since the Sox are rebuilding they can offer him that kind of opportunity.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Sep 13, 2017 -> 12:38 PM) Cespedes is a completely different situation as he had none of the restrictions that young international players have now. How easily we miss the point. I know that situation was different . The point was no one expected Oakland to sign him just as no one expects the Sox to sign Otani.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Sep 13, 2017 -> 12:34 PM) 3 years? Absolutely. Any deal is going to have to follow closely to the historicals of what players get paid around baseball in years 1-6 based on their performance. No players are going to get paid more than $5 million for their first three years of major league service. Again, it is all about the comps. Players make half a million or SLIGHTLY above it their first year. They might get a bit more than that their second year, but even the top players are going to make about a million dollars their second year. Mike Trout made $510k his second full year, and $1 million for his 3rd. That is about $2 million total for one of the best first three years in MLB history. Tim Anderson who signed a super early extension to get some money up front is getting $850k for his first full year, $1 mil for his second year, and $1.4 for his third. That is slightly over $3 million for his first three full years. A 3/40 deal in his first year would be thrown out quick. You'd need a deal of AT LEAST six years to be able to argue for a $40 million contract. Oh well then we just disagree. The league is not in the habit of voiding MLB deals and probably would want to avoid it at all costs. When you throw in what a successful Otani would mean to a franchise that team could easily argue a contract I mentioned is not out of line with his value . The league would not just say we are voiding that contract without due process . The only reason a guy like Trout didn't get big money sooner is because it's rather stupid for teams togive big money to players that early because they hold all the cards for 6 years . Again the Otani situation is unique and arguing over what kind of contract extension gets voided or not seem trite at this point in time. We'll see how it unfolds down the road. There's a long way to go before any team even reaches that point.

QUOTE (soxfan2014 @ Sep 13, 2017 -> 12:02 PM) Otani to Sox talk seems extremely moot. To you it's moot and I will agree it's unlikely the Sox get him but why not the Sox? It is certainly worth debating the pros and cons of this very unique situation where the money makes no difference and all teams have a shot. Sure maybe not all teams in Otani's mind but hell all you have to do is see Cespedes signed with Oakland of all teams to understand stranger things have happened.

QUOTE (soxfan2014 @ Sep 13, 2017 -> 12:19 PM) It's not "giving up." It's realizing they likely aren't going to get him. The White Sox aren't even scouting him. Just because you read the Sox aren't scouting him doesn't mean its true. I'm sure they have loads of current video on him .and are well aware of the unique position any team is in to get him without paying him a great deal. It would be negligence not to throw their hat in the ring. It is more likely the Sox make some effort than no effort at all. No front office in their right mind just realizes they won't get him . That would be a terrible way to run a ball club.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Sep 13, 2017 -> 12:08 PM) There is zero chance they let a $100 million contract happen after a 1st year. Even Mike Trout didn't get a $100 million contract until his 3rd year of baseball, and that is with two and a half years of MVP numbers first. You are the only one saying $100M . I certainly never said it. I just said a contract more than Andersons. Do you think 3 years $40-60M would be voided with an opt out to become a free agent ? I mean we can go through all kinds of uniquely structured deals that would not kill the Sox and gives Otani free agency after a few years.

QUOTE (Harry Chappas @ Sep 13, 2017 -> 12:10 PM) Does he go through the posting process? If so, Don't teams have to bid on him and the $300K/$10M is not the issue but who gives the most money to this controlling team to win the bid similar to Tanaka. Can it have been written in a contract somewhere that he splits that fee 50/50? Can this fee be $100M? I answered that above somewhere. Posting fee is currently $20M and may change but not expected to be by much.

QUOTE (hi8is @ Sep 13, 2017 -> 11:41 AM) +1 How could you +1 that ? It's like saying let's just give up . The Otani situation is unique in that he will not get big bucks for his 1st year. It would be ludicrous not to make every attempt to pursue him.

QUOTE (BlackSox13 @ Sep 13, 2017 -> 11:47 AM) I think the Sox knew they had no chance with Otani so they made sure to get Robert which was the smart move. I'm still not convinced. Most of the money would go to the posting fee to Otani's team. Currently that is $20M and it's now undergoing negotiations to change but not expected to be altered much if at all. The Sox could easily pay that. It's very easy to say the Sox won't get him since the odds are long but to dismiss there's a chance for him entirely is a mistake . The Sox may have to wait a while for Robert, Imagine an instant star like Otani and everything it could mean to the Sox right now ! They need to make every effort to get him however long the odds appear.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Sep 13, 2017 -> 11:42 AM) There are also a decent amount of contracts that have been offered after first year's. You really don't see hundred million contracts happen until after renewal years are done. Probably 4th year at least, if not 5th to get comps for that. However in the scenario I mentioned about Otani being an instant success as a hitter and pitcher there would be literally no one to compare him. In that kind of 1st year while paying him minimum wage MLB salary and the 300K bonus the Sox stand to make millions of dollars in endorsements and at the box office. He would be unlike any kind of 1st year player ever if he can be a successful 2 way player. Therefore it is reasonable to assume a contract extension that was uniquely structured would not be out of line based on his unique situation. They would simply be paying him what he is worth to the franchise.