CaliSoxFanViaSWside

Yes the Sox suck at signing top of the market guys and shelling out $300M. But surely they will break that Abreu $68M contract record once twice or maybe even 3 times in the next 2 years. I know a lot of angry people don't think it's ever possible considering the owner and his court jesters but they have to know how important that is becoming and the longer they wait the harder it gets. Of course with our luck Jerry dies and Sox sell the team right at the beginning of next off season when payroll commitments are non existent and that will take precedent over signing anyone while everything is in flux.

I think there's an argument to be made for both production and upside. A guy like Eloy because his production was so good it's easier to see his upside For those who don't produce it's just harder to see the upside. Baseball is unique in that regard . Production in football and basketball is much more likely to translate to success at the higher level since you go from college to the pros. Almost no one in baseball goes from college to MLB. Baseball requires much more fine tuning of the talent. For some it comes slowly or never does. Basketball and football more heavily relies on athletic ability and baseball is a game of patience, adjustments and outsmarting the other guy. A hitter can have all kinds of natural ability but can't be patient or out think the pitcher will have a hard time showing off those abilities AT the lower levels sheer talent might get you by without making adjustments ,outsmarting or patience but it will get you sooner or later the higher you rise. All it takes is one pronounced weakness for a hitter to fail because it will be exploited over and over again. Avi would be one of the best hitters in baseball if he ever learned to lay off the crap pitchers throw him but that lack of patience and knowing when the pitcher is more likely to throw you crap means he also isn't outsmarting too many pitchers. Like you said there are plenty of guys who never made the leap from being productive minor leaguers to productive major leaguers. However there are probably far more examples or guys who couldn't be productive minor leaguers who also didn't become productive MLB players.

I am really glad you still choose to talk baseball. Your insights are valuable to a board that is hurt but most still fails to see hope looking through the fire in their eyes or just plain lack of knowledge. I get just as discouraged about posters lack of knowledge of the game as I do about the Sox owner and FO. Every time I challenge someone to give me a better cheaper innings eater than Nova when they complain about his salary all I get is a list of injured pitchers in 2018. It's like wow isn't the definition of an innings eater kind of self explanatory ? They can't even comprehend why a recently injured pitcher isn't an innings eater or why an innings eater helps the other starters and bullpen. I know Nova isn't guaranteed to be healthy in 2019 but his last 3 years of consistently eating innings and staying healthy provides a higher degree of certainty .

Why should I care that 4 years ago Nova pitched less than 100 innings . You and I both know recent history is most important to describe an inning eater and 3 years of that seems perfectly fine. If you want to say guys who pitched 90 and 100 innings in 2018 are innings eater then I seriously question how on earth you can justify that .That seems much more arbitrary than my example because now you can include any injured pitcher with a small amount of innings in 2018 but a history before that of eating innings. No one pitches 200 innings any more and i can guarantee you that none of the pitchers you listed will even come close to 180 IP, probably not even 140. Also a complete misuse of stats to say he has more ERA's above 5 than below 4 . That leaves out everything in the 4's and ignores the low 4 career ERA. He had a 5.02 in 2012 . All other full seasons he was well below 5.00. For you to say that you know your argument is failing. Yes it matters that Estrada is older and declining otherwise just sign Shields .Shields was better than Estrada. So yes I want the innings eater to actually eat innings and help the bullpen, For a guy who wants our young bullpen arms and young starters to do well your ideas are the opposite of how you do that. Maybe you forget Rodon is also coming off an injury . Are you advocating that 3/5 of our starting rotating be pitchers coming off injuries ? How does help our more important young starters or the bullpen ? No the plan didn't suck the plan was executed poorly. No one would be talking about all the other guys if we had just signed Machado. You know it and I know it. I ignored Holland for the sake of brevity. I knew my post would already be pretty long . Besides we had him already and he was a disaster.

As i previously stated they shouldn't only be looked at as whatever they can get in trades. Perhaps the returns will be miniscule. Perhaps both pitch great but not getting Machado definitely hurts their chances to pile up saves and holds. But they also allow the the young bullpen pieces the chance to pitch less stressful innings and develop into guys that could be like Herrera or Colome. Swarzak had nowhere close to the good pitching history as Herrera and Colome so thusly netted less. The Sox revived Soria's sagging career and despite being 35 for for this season signed a 2 year deal with Oakland for 15M. Getting anything for him was a plus despite how it turns out.

Ivan Nova Age 32 . Innings pitched 2018 161, 2017 187 , 2016 162 , 2015 Hellickson 91 innings last year because of injury automatically disqualifies him because pretty sure he'll get the innings this year of a 5th starter while Nova will get the innings of a #4. Could be a 40 or 50 inning difference plus his lack of innings last year means he's not likely to come back and pitch 150 . Moore 102 IP last year and sucked . Both disqualifies him as a consistently good to average innings eater. Marco Estrada. Not a bad example of an innings eater although 143 IP last year could signal a downturn in his age 34 season. S0 he will be 35 in 2019. His combined ERA the last 2 years is around 5.50 So no Estrada not better than Nova , not even close. Miley: I thought Miley was a good option for 5th starter .2018 IP 80.2 so again another injured pitcher. I know you said Nova is cannon fodder for the back end but he is a 4 not a 5 and you do him a great disservice just because he is reliable and consistently fair starting pitcher. I guess i have to repeat pitchers injured in 2018 cannot qualify as innings eaters . Innings eaters eat innings. I don't know how I can make that more clear.. It's self explanatory. Nova 160 + IP the last 3 seasons. He is the definition of reliability with a career ERA in the low 4's . Your other argument for guys not making sense because of spending on a terrible team. Yes now its terrible but might not have been with Machado. Bad perhaps or mediocre but not terrible. At least Machado would've made some games closer which provides guys like Herrera and Colome more opportunities to get saves and holds thus making them more valuable for the trade deadline. Since Hahn has had trouble adding to the core the last 2 years. Herrera is young enough where he can be considered as a core piece if he plays well and the Sox exercise the club option for the 3rd year. We have no idea what happens next off season but to discount it out of hand as another failure before it starts would be foolish. Or he can be traded for whatever depending on how well he pitchers . Adding good players in a rebuild is not necessarily a bad thing even if they don't fit the time line. Yes it might hurt draft status but most would have little impact on the standings though a guy like Herrera and Colome allows time for the younger guys to pitch less stressful innings which will help their development. You have to remember the Sox didn't plan to lose Machado they just sucked at getting it accomplished and the moves prior to him were made thinking they could get him. Basically your argument says hey let's spend less of Jerry's money since the guys your complaining about as bad signings are 1 or 2 year guys. The Sox payroll commitments for next year could be as low as $14M despite who we signed this year. Forget this year . Enjoy the young fellows and hope Herrera and Colome pitch lights out and net us some decent returns while the young BP pieces get better. The rebuild is critically injured but it could make a full recovery even if the surgeons are bad. Always next year with even more payroll upside.

Maybe that signing would have changed things . Who knows we can't predict the future . Maybe they sign Corbin or Keuchel or Happ or Eovaldi. Maybe Pollock I know you had it in your head just how the rebuild should go and the Sox were pretty much following your script until it blew up in all our faces. Sucks to be wrong. Sucks to trust someone and then be let down but we always knew the whales were a long shot deep down in our hearts. Also not wasted if he was traded to add a good prospect or 2 which you ignored.

The combined salary is $55M for one year,Your post makes it seem like that's how long we would have Machado and/or Harper even though one was 10 years and the other 13. The last sentence is debatable. I saw a few posts talking about innings eaters to replace Nova and when I ask who they tell me guys that were injured and in no way resemble innings eaters. If you wanted Shields back fine, that's a cheaper guy than Nova but he'll be 37 this year. It's easy to say but harder to prove. Don't get me wrong I know the off season was an unmitigated disaster and the Alonso Jay fiasco looks terrible in hindsight but we knew all along that if the Sox landed Machado those moves would look good and if not they would look like they do now. I know we all think McCann sucks but he was the youngest catcher out there available and he didn't have a terrible 2017 so maybe the Sox are still hoping for some upside but for $2.5M more than likely you're talking about signing some 34/35 yr old to a minor league deal. Herrera is 29 ( you might see a pattern here) $18M for 2 years w/ club option for a 3rd year. Andrew Miller got 2 years $25M even though he is 34 with a vesting option for a 3rd year for $12M. Herrera has a 2.82 ERA over 7 full season in MLB . That's pretty darn good. Familia seems like a good comp to Herrera same age ,signed a 3 year $30M deal. Maybe you don't like my comps for Herrera. Feel free to find your own and discuss it . But I just don't like blanket statements made because we are all ticked off and fits that narrative.

We went back and forth on this. It's precisely the reason I wanted Moustaskas and JD Martinez last year. I know it would've been too early. I know Martinez got some really early opt outs so he will be available again. But in my earliest arguments on Machado and Harper I didn't think we could get them. Then I bought into the hype like pretty much everyone else. I wanted the discounted guys because that's all the Sox seem capable of signing and an elite bat like JD doesn't come discounted very often .Maybe if Martinez had got a better offer from the White Sox he wouldn't have wanted the early opt outs. Even if he still wanted them we still might have been able to get some nice prospects for him. Instead we haven't added to the core since the Q trade while the prospects so far have either gotten injured or not yet become what we hoped for. It was me against the whole community with me saying they want to play with a contender and the Sox wouldn't ever offer the most money while everyone else said it's only the money that matters . They were right it was the money but we see how that worked out.

Jose Rondon 2 run HR with Rutherford on from HBP . Ex Sox Yency Almonte was pitching. 10-6 Sox lead.

You make some valid points about shrinking player prime. But he's had so few AB's playing full season ball because of injuries, He should play another full season and be promoted to as High as AAA if need be. If he excels great, he can start the season in 2020 as our CF. He still has things to prove like staying healthy and putting up good numbers down there across every level.

Don't get too excited. The guy the Sox rocked in the 9th was 35 yr old Tim Dillard who hasn't pitched in the majors since 2012 and hasn't had below a 5.00 ERA in AAA since 2014. Expecting his retirement soon

Thank you.

I really really hate to ask this. Are you hinting that he didn't belong there and that the Sox purposely delayed his development because they are cheap ? Yes I know they paid $50M for him .

And also in ST last year. Still SSS but yes he's looked better against better pitching but that's probably due to health more than anything.

If the AFL and so far in spring is any indication at all how he does when he is healthy and starting to get it, he could be a fast riser.

If he has a great spring I wonder what level he starts at . AA ? Is he headed there anyway or A+ ?

Eddie Alvarez walk, Steele Walker double , Luis Robert 3 run HR . Then Joel Booker walk , Chris Johnson HBP and RBI single by ZacK Collins. 4 run 9th gives Sox 8-5 lead headed to bottom of 9th. Zach Thompson finishes it off allowing a double to Pence but no runs for the save. Robert the hitting star 2/2 triple, HR 4 rbi. Kids also did well . Jimenez, Madrigal,Walker and Collins all had a hit. Rivera, Booker L., Gonzalez all played. Bernardo Flores with the win 2.1 IP 2 K no hits no runs no walks. Nova 2.2 IP 1 H, I R, no K's or BB's. Madrigal and Collins each had an error.

Luis Robert for the uninitiated.

Or perhaps it's spring training and now might be the time to test yourself and the competition with the blessing of management ?

Yes he does. Who does ? Yes ! Continuance of the Abbott and Costello theme.

1B; Who 2B: What 3B: I don't know LF: Why CF: Because Pitcher: Tomorrow C : Today SS: I don't give a darn. http://www.baseball-almanac.com/humor4.shtml Thanks to Abbott and Costello if you don't know wtf I'm doing.

I think if I had posted Harper would get $330M but only an AAV of $25M I would have got 10 laughing emojis.

I bet you really clicked with that salesman too... until you told him you only had 10K. But I'm sure you can make a deal that will fill you with confidence about your chances to own one of those beauties.

I added a link to the 90 players who received $90M+ contracts .That still leaves players out who have received contracts between $68M and $89M. Might be another 25 of them. I just can't find it anywhere. https://legacy.baseballprospectus.com/compensation/cots/league-info/highest-paid-players/