CaliSoxFanViaSWside

QUOTE (TheFutureIsNear @ Nov 30, 2013 -> 02:44 PM) Hate to be THAT guy but there is a lot of talk of an '08 team that won 1 playoff game and then failed the following year. That should hardly be the team we are trying to emulate Oh Future you know Balta was just using that team as an example of a s*** team that got into the playoffs the next year in order to spread a little good cheer . Besides being THAT guy you're also the guy who just got done advocating boom or bust from season to season. The playoffs look like an uphill battle from where we were last year let alone any kind of sustained success. When the Sox do manage to make the playoffs 2 years in a row I think it would be the 1st time in Sox history or at least since the playoff system started.

QUOTE (Lemon_44 @ Nov 29, 2013 -> 07:33 PM) Thomas should be a first ballot HOF'er no doubt. You'll have some complain about his defense but you don't make the HOF based defense. A great SS or OF may get consideration because they were great defensively but you still have to put up the numbers on ofense. I know there's speculation about Piazza and PED's but has there ever been anything concrete? I don't remember him being named in any reports. Unless, it's a well know but un-reported fact, which I find hard to believe in these times, he should be in. You can't/shouldn't keep a guy out because you think he did something. There has to be proof, in my book, if you're going to keep someone out. http://www.metstoday.com/8374/12-13-offsea...dmits-peds-use/ http://metsblog.com/news/mike-piazza/mike-...-upcoming-book/ http://www.sportingnews.com/mlb/story/2013...ns-hall-of-fame On the issue of performance-enhancing drugs, Piazza claims he never used any illegal substances. However, he admits he used androstenedione and “greenies,” both of which were legal at the time but have since been banned by Major League Baseball. Borrowed from the comments section of Suthsidesox recent article on Thomas

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Nov 30, 2013 -> 02:28 PM) The other big roster change was Alexei taking over 2b and Uribe moving from 2b to 3b. In fact, 3b got somewhat worse with the bats because 2007 was Josh Fields's one good season. They brought in Nick Swisher with the goal of having him take over CF but that was such a disaster that Wise and Griffey wound up taking over the position for significant portions of the season. They also traded Jon Garland for Orlando Cabrera to fill their SS spot, he was the leadoff hitter for much of the year in 08 but he was basically just tolerable, .705 OPS and .334 OBP out of the leadoff spot isn't that great. The other thing that made a big difference was that Floyd and Danks were rookie pitchers in 2007, struggling or in the minors for much of the year, and they pitched like really good big league starters in 2008. We also spent some money on the bullpen in 2008 to bring in Linebrink and Dotel, they were useful pieces as well. The things that made a difference were...getting the pitching staff infused with Floyd and Danks (biggest improvement), adding 2 real key bats in Quentin and Alexei, getting a few guys back towards their career norms (Buehrle), and basically getting rid of the black holes that did nothing. They still weren't that great on defense or baserunning in 08, but they had solid pitching and adding that MVP quality bat in the middle of their lineup did wonders. I'm really hoping we just added that MVP caliber bat to our order. And frankly, yeah I'll be disappointed if he's not somewhere close to that. That 08 team also led the ML in HR's by 21 over the next best HR hitting team ( Phillies) and 35 for the next best AL team ( Detroit).

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Nov 30, 2013 -> 01:58 PM) The 07 white sox put up the fewest runs in the league, worst OBP in the league, worst sb% age in the league, 12th in ERA out of 14 teams, and 12th in errors out of 14 teams. It's actually kind of remarkable with how bad that 07 team performed that the '13 team lost more games than them. The 2007 Sox were terrible in every aspect of the game, including pitching. Every aspect of the game you mentioned. In 07, Cleveland went to the ALCS and barely were beaten by the Red Sox, the Tigers were a year removed from a world series birth, and the Twins had solid 06 and 08 campaigns at the bookends. The Tigers, Indians, and Twins could all be called strong competitors - it literally came down to the last day of the season the next year. It wasn't the AL East but that was a solid division with a number of legit, evenly-matched competitors. And the White sox became one of those competitors in 1 season after being incredibly bad in 07. Andy Gonzalez as a starting IF bad. You covered some of what I'd research. But I'd also look at how many roster spots turned over and at what cost. and who had career years , who regressed etc. If you're expecting Abreu to be the 2014 Quentin the main difference is Quentin's didn't cost the Sox $17M in the 1st year they got him. But I understand your point , it's just too much of a reach for me to consider it seriously with basically the same roster like you suggested.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Nov 30, 2013 -> 01:42 PM) I came into this offseason saying "Hahn needs 1 piece to have a team I can say can compete if everything goes right and that's Abreu". He nailed that one. Our weakest position by far last year was 1b; we expected it to carry us, we paid it to carry us, and it was one of the worst in baseball. Beyond that...we have a couple positions that could hurt us. Catcher is the big worry...but I still say I have no clue what we have there. If the scouts say it won't get better then something needs to be done...but I'd also be surprised if they said that given how they were willing to push guys upwards last year. This team could compete if everything goes right as it is. Catcher is my next worry on the list, but that one I can't make the call because I don't know what Hahn has been told by his guys. I guess thats where we differ because everything going right for the same basic team means some really bad players and I mean bad at a lot of different aspects on playing baseball the right way all of a sudden become real good players . I don't even like to think of the odds of that happening because it's depressing.

QUOTE (Jose Abreu @ Nov 30, 2013 -> 01:34 PM) But after 2007, did we want to compete in 2008? Many of us did not, but we did, and we all know what happened. The Sox were terrible in every aspect of the game last year except pitching. Defense , hitting, fundamentals ,base running , on base percentage, the bench and leadership all crumbled. That's just way too much to fix . I can't really comment on 2008 because I'd have to do a ton of reseach on 2007 and 2008 and see where the Sox were in relation to the rest of the division. The Royals , Indians and Tigers are all looking strong now. Maybe if Viciedo can pull an MVP type season out of his ass like Quentin did it's possible if we can get some good glove guys and OBP guys somehow.

QUOTE (raBBit @ Nov 30, 2013 -> 01:18 PM) I completely agree with you and I was just going to make a case using Cleveland as the example. It's just the poster who I had quoted was a bit overzealous in his breakdown of our "young core." And of course I always go back to the A's/Rays. Those teams are never sexy but they just churn out pitching and play the game the right way. We already have the pitching part going for us. I say: Get a catcher: Jaso/Grandal/Castro/Rosario. Move Santiago/Quintana IF the right piece comes in return. Sign/pick up a LH SU guy. (Eric O'Flaherty??) Sign a middle/back of the rotation pitcher who our organization likes. I really don't think that's too much to ask for and I really think the FO is going to shock this board and pick up an established bat to hit 5/6 or even 2nd. You and Balta think much like me as far as trying to compete for 2014 but I think we know in our hearts that it's not likely to happen. About the only thing I can say for what I really want to see happen besides what you outlined is that a strong defensive CF is a must. I think that kind of player sets the tone for the whole team defensively. I know thats probably not backed up statistically in any way, just my basic baseball instincts about being strong defensively up the middle, especially CF. We also need a few guys who don't view OBP as a disease and more lefthanded hitters.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Nov 30, 2013 -> 12:52 PM) If someone can explain to me what it was mentally that took that team from the most consistent, reliable defense in the league in 2012 to the least consistent, most unreliable defense in the league in 2013 I could then imagine them being right back to competitive with the roster they have now. They have talent through the lineup and guys who could contribute. They are really loaded on pitching and that could overcome even some struggles from the offense. But seriously, what the heck happened to this team's focus? In 2012 they were right on for 5 months. In 2013 they were...Ooh look a squirrel! I don't think it's explainable . When you look at the Sox individually as defenders the only above average fielder they have is Alexei. Beckham is about league average maybe better than that by a hair since maybe his range was affected by injuries .The outfield sucked , the infield sucked, the catching sucked. Murphy's Law took over in 2013 , 2012 the opposite of Murphy's Law happened. Whatever glue held them together in 2012 dissolved in 2013.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Nov 30, 2013 -> 11:27 AM) The last time the White Sox lost 90 games, they had an even worse system than the one they have right now, and they came out and won the division the next year without making many major FA signings other than keeping their own guys (and could very well have gone farther had their key guy on offense not broken his hand). That's the exception rather than the rule. Sure I have hope they can do that again but realistically I'm looking to get to a place to improve from. Improve this year 15-20 games this year and 15 20 games for 2015 and you're competing for the division by 2015 barring any catastrophic injuries to key pieces. Otherwise who knows how long we're looking at. Right now we're looking at so much that needs to go right that I can't even imagine getting a playoff spot next year.

QUOTE (TheFutureIsNear @ Nov 30, 2013 -> 11:07 AM) Is all of that worth it for a .500 team? Even if we change all of the "luck" and manage to win 85 games that's still not anywhere really near the playoffs in the AL. IDK, maybe I'm different, but I've always been a championship contention or bust type of person. I'd rather lose for 2 straight years and come back with a well built team than throw together team that is simply designed not to loose a lot but has no real shot of winning anything when its all said and done. I don't think the Sox have the kind of organization to make huge leaps in one years time. Most organizations built step by step . You'd prefer the Sox lose another 90+ games and then all of a sudden compete somehow ? I'd really like to hear how they would accomplish that given that every lousy year will mean lower payroll. I want to compete in 2014 also but right now there's no indication of that considering we hear about an $80-85M payroll and letting Konerko decide if he will play for the Sox next year. Maybe Hahn has some surprises up his sleeve but getting back to.500 in one year would be a big step in the right direction for me if it can be accomplished with a youthful core and promising players in the system . The Sox are just not going to sign big money free agents and you can't trade fool's gold for real gold.

QUOTE (Jake @ Nov 30, 2013 -> 08:43 AM) My first reaction to the "close losses" stat is that it has no context. I have no clue if that is more than normal or what. Our pythagorean W-L had us with 67 wins (versus 63), which says that we did have an unlucky distribution of runs. If we had been pretty damn lucky in our distribution of runs, we're just getting into the mid-70s of wins. For reference, we won 85 games in 2012 and our pythagorean W-L was 88 wins, so we were actually "unlucky" last year. I put unlucky in quotes because luck isn't the only thing that affects the distribution of runs. Obviously, good teams may "pick their spots" so to speak better. For instance, a good team will surrender a larger portion of runs in games that they're winning big than a bad team. My first reaction to Pythag speak ( and I mean no disrespect by this ) is huh ? I'm talking strictly baseball. We didnt score runs or field the ball very well and lost a lot of low scoring close games. Let's assume Abreu hits and Garcia hits and we get a few gloves , a few BP arms maybe one other reliable hitter and get rid of 3 of the main culprits from last year. I know I'm assuming a lot but if we get the same type of pitching we got in 2012 get a little more run production and much better fielding, smarter base running and the BP holds up well I think we can be a .500 team which would be a huge improvement . Bad luck to me = bad fielding , bad base running and bad hitting. Improve on those things and your luck changes.

QUOTE (scs787 @ Nov 29, 2013 -> 06:23 PM) By my, perhaps twisted, logic they don't have to replicate what those guys did run for run. The Sox lost 52 of their 99 games by 2 runs or less. To me, and perhaps only to me, that means they're not as far away as some might think. Once again, perhaps only in my world, I think if you improve 3 positions, Abreu already being one, Granderson being another, and a trade could bring another. I see both arguments and believe they're both valid, Hahn can go either way. You know you're not the only one. I've been singing that same song right along with you for quite a while. I usually use the 1 run and extra inning games . Going to 2 run losses seems to be pushing it a bit. My nature is to want to beleive the Sox want to be competitive however I'm not convinced yet they mean it. We'll see what else Hahn does and then see if I beleive. But I truly beleive they need to support the pitching staff with some much better gloves more than I think more bats are needed. If Abreu and Garcia don't hit we're strarting from scratch again next year.

QUOTE (Harry Chappas @ Nov 28, 2013 -> 06:58 AM) I liked Coffey, oh and I called it wrap after Calgary went up 2-0, sigh. Ha thats weird you quoted my Pale Hose Talk discussion in the NHL thread. But yeah I fell asleep between the 2nd and 3rd period woke up and saw the final then watched the highlights . Kane is amazing.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Nov 27, 2013 -> 07:58 PM) A C+ prospect for him. If you said Snodgress, I wouldn't bat an eye - you trade for Wieters. Hell, I'd probably give up Sanchez for him. He has a boatload of talent and was actually very good offensively in the minors. But consider this from Baltimore's perspective: they need to cut costs, they've been generally unhappy with Wieters' development as a hitter, and he's about to get expensive. They don't have a ton of leverage in negotiations. If they can potentially get a piece to play and start in 2015, they have to consider it if they're truly looking to cut costs and are shopping Wieters. Which means you really don't want him . There might be 25 teams willing to offer more and certainly more at the trading deadlines for the next 2 years among those in contention.

QUOTE (hi8is @ Nov 27, 2013 -> 07:09 PM) Poop Publications Someone understands.

QUOTE (RockRaines @ Nov 27, 2013 -> 10:18 PM) Uh what? I don't see the sox having much communication with them at the moment. I could be wrong but they were not a team that popped out. I don't think catcher upgrade is a huge priority right now. Clearly I should have used teal since the guy asked for any rumor I made one up.

QUOTE (chisoxfan310 @ Nov 27, 2013 -> 04:12 PM) Seriously...I'll take any rumor at this point. Sox making serious inquiries about Saltalamachia.

QUOTE (QuickJones81 @ Nov 27, 2013 -> 05:40 PM) If you were Rick Hahn, and you had two options for a catcher in front of you, which would you take and why: Option A: Jarrod Saltalamacchia at a cost of 4 yrs / $36M Option B: Matt Wieters at a cost of Erik Johnson, Tyler Flowers, and Carlos Sanchez Something about Salty crushing mammoth HR's against all the RH pitching in our division appeals to me.

QUOTE (StRoostifer @ Nov 25, 2013 -> 01:43 PM) How about we keep in mind that there are teams playing the FA market and as teams sign their FA's they will have a better idea who they will consider making available via trades. I'd be willing to bet this is one reason Hahn hasn't been able to deliver any presents to the kids yet. Good grief are people impatient! And sometimes, like Mozeliak did , traded Freese at approximatelyt the same time or once he knew Peralta was wrapped up ,but not announced as such ,so as to not weaken the value of Freese by having a glut of infielders.

QUOTE (elrockinMT @ Nov 25, 2013 -> 08:59 AM) I know. Panic mode because things are getting done by others. I think free agency fundamentally changed player movement. Gone are the days when Bill Veeck sat in the lobby at the winter meetings with a sign "Open for Business." Teams can pay for a player they need instead of trading their good players and prospects away for someone. I think often they go that route first. Plus they can get a proven impact player. We have needs at possibly 3B, Catcher and maybe CF and relief pitching. I haven't seen the deals yet that had players involved that were a good fit for the Sox. Winter meetings will be interesting. I think you're reading too much into the original post. Clearly I was guaging how others feel so far. I'm fully aware the Sox made a huge splash with Abreu and there's quite a bit of speculation on what the payroll will end up being or if the Sox really plan on being competitive or if it's just the right thing to say to the fans. I gave the option of saying Hahn is falling behind with the signing of a few catchers and Santiago-like pitchers and the Cards trade for Bourjos who is a type of CF the Sox could ve had interest in or if those types of signings are establishing value for Sox players. If Hahn truly plans on having the Sox be competive in 2014 he's got quite a bit of wheeling and dealing to do trading bad offensive and defensive players for better players is no small task. Limiting payroll to $80-85 and comtemplating letting PK come back if he wants doesn't exactly scream " I want to make valuable use of every roster spot and upgrade the hitting and defense."

QUOTE (bigruss22 @ Nov 24, 2013 -> 04:10 PM) Dude, it's not even December yet... I'm just trying to stimulate discussion and a lot of signings and trades are already happening . As was the case at the trade deadline Hahn waits everything out for the best deal but that can backfire. I know we signed Abreu and that's great . I just hate coming here and seeing nothing new so I thought I'd get opinions on how people are reacting , if it helps us, hurts us or has no effect on us. I'm find with being patient and seeing what's in store. So far the answers are good except for SS2K5's

The St. Louis Cardinals GM, John Mozeliak hasn't waited long to try to make upgrades to try and steer the Cardinals to long term success. I realize the Card's situation is vastly different than the Sox. Do you think Hahn and the Sox had talks about Alexei ? Was the asking price too high ? Did Mozeliak think Peralta was a better option for 4/$52M than Alexei was for 2/$20 M and giving up a prospect ? The Cards also traded for Bourjos, one of my offseason targets . So both moves eliminated Alexei going to the Cards and the possibilty ,however remote, of Bourjos coming here since we have no idea if Hahn had Bourjos on his "big board". Does the signing of Peralta and Jason Vargas make guys like Santiago and Alexei more valuable ? Does anyone think Hahn is too busy asking for the moon and letting other teams worsen his position by acting now on their needs ? I know it's very early in the offseason but a lot is going on so I'd like to know what everyone is thinking.

QUOTE (mike65 @ Nov 24, 2013 -> 02:15 PM) Hey guys, I was hoping for Ramirez to the Cardinals but that is not happening. I came here in July with a hope for Ramirez and, again, this off-season. I will leave zero for two. I was listening today to XM and they had Josh Byrnes on. I don't know if he slipped but he mentioned that his office was having email problems and he hadn't been able to reach Rick Hahn. He is headed to Chicago for Thanksgiving and said he planned to just walk into his office so they could finish their business. Take it for what it is worth as a parting gift. I sure have enjoyed this board and thanks for making me feel welcome. I hope 2014 is better for the White Sox. I went to Gatewayredbirds.com and most seem happy about the signing and really don't care if Peralta is coming off a steroids suspension that might affect his numbers and that his range is pretty limited in the field . Most also seem happy the Cards didn't give up any minor leaguers .Hahn may 've shot himself in the foot asking for too much if there were any talks at all. I didn't see anyone mention Alexei Ramirez just Tulo, Aybar, Drew, Andrus so maybe you were in a minority about Alexei. Alexei at $20M for 2 years seems a lot better than Peralta at 4/$52 . Mozeliak must really value his prospects or is saving them up for a bigger deal. Alexei's a year older than Peralta, had more errors but still graded out as a better fielder due to his range being much better. His offense is not a liability as he hits a decent amount of doubles and hit well with men on base and also stole 30 bases despite being 32. He justs seems to be more of a Cardinals typer player. Good luck .

QUOTE (JoshPR @ Nov 24, 2013 -> 07:47 AM) I read somewhere they wanted him to play LF! Hard to beleive the Cards would prefer a deal with Peralta over Alexei for less money and less time. Peralta has no range . Alexei's errors made him look bad but he gets to a lot more balls than Peralta. Card must want to horde their prospects or Hahns asking price was way too high and St. Louis said FU to him. Alexei's probably worth more to us than to the Cards but seeing how much they're going to pay for Peralta thats hard to fathom.

QUOTE (Baron @ Nov 23, 2013 -> 04:05 PM) Jerry Crasnick ‏@jcrasnick 2m Free agent Jhonny Peralta closing in on a deal with #STLcards, source confirms. https://twitter.com/jcrasnick So much for Alexei to the Cards.