CaliSoxFanViaSWside

The St. Louis Cardinals GM, John Mozeliak hasn't waited long to try to make upgrades to try and steer the Cardinals to long term success. I realize the Card's situation is vastly different than the Sox. Do you think Hahn and the Sox had talks about Alexei ? Was the asking price too high ? Did Mozeliak think Peralta was a better option for 4/$52M than Alexei was for 2/$20 M and giving up a prospect ? The Cards also traded for Bourjos, one of my offseason targets . So both moves eliminated Alexei going to the Cards and the possibilty ,however remote, of Bourjos coming here since we have no idea if Hahn had Bourjos on his "big board". Does the signing of Peralta and Jason Vargas make guys like Santiago and Alexei more valuable ? Does anyone think Hahn is too busy asking for the moon and letting other teams worsen his position by acting now on their needs ? I know it's very early in the offseason but a lot is going on so I'd like to know what everyone is thinking.

QUOTE (mike65 @ Nov 24, 2013 -> 02:15 PM) Hey guys, I was hoping for Ramirez to the Cardinals but that is not happening. I came here in July with a hope for Ramirez and, again, this off-season. I will leave zero for two. I was listening today to XM and they had Josh Byrnes on. I don't know if he slipped but he mentioned that his office was having email problems and he hadn't been able to reach Rick Hahn. He is headed to Chicago for Thanksgiving and said he planned to just walk into his office so they could finish their business. Take it for what it is worth as a parting gift. I sure have enjoyed this board and thanks for making me feel welcome. I hope 2014 is better for the White Sox. I went to Gatewayredbirds.com and most seem happy about the signing and really don't care if Peralta is coming off a steroids suspension that might affect his numbers and that his range is pretty limited in the field . Most also seem happy the Cards didn't give up any minor leaguers .Hahn may 've shot himself in the foot asking for too much if there were any talks at all. I didn't see anyone mention Alexei Ramirez just Tulo, Aybar, Drew, Andrus so maybe you were in a minority about Alexei. Alexei at $20M for 2 years seems a lot better than Peralta at 4/$52 . Mozeliak must really value his prospects or is saving them up for a bigger deal. Alexei's a year older than Peralta, had more errors but still graded out as a better fielder due to his range being much better. His offense is not a liability as he hits a decent amount of doubles and hit well with men on base and also stole 30 bases despite being 32. He justs seems to be more of a Cardinals typer player. Good luck .

QUOTE (JoshPR @ Nov 24, 2013 -> 07:47 AM) I read somewhere they wanted him to play LF! Hard to beleive the Cards would prefer a deal with Peralta over Alexei for less money and less time. Peralta has no range . Alexei's errors made him look bad but he gets to a lot more balls than Peralta. Card must want to horde their prospects or Hahns asking price was way too high and St. Louis said FU to him. Alexei's probably worth more to us than to the Cards but seeing how much they're going to pay for Peralta thats hard to fathom.

QUOTE (Baron @ Nov 23, 2013 -> 04:05 PM) Jerry Crasnick ‏@jcrasnick 2m Free agent Jhonny Peralta closing in on a deal with #STLcards, source confirms. https://twitter.com/jcrasnick So much for Alexei to the Cards.

QUOTE (BigHurt3515 @ Nov 22, 2013 -> 11:53 AM) Woooooo!! No David Freese for us!! Yea but no Bourjos either . I wanted him bad .

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Nov 21, 2013 -> 05:51 PM) There were many reports of voters turned off about it. Frank's biggest obstacle is not his numbers vs. PED guys, he is seen as clean. His biggest problem in whether or not he will be a first ballot guy is how much he DH'd. He doesn't have to campaign to get in. It will happen really soon. It's the internet with many search engines. If there are so many ,surely would be easy to find one.

QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Nov 21, 2013 -> 05:20 PM) I definitely remember hearing some voters complain about Santo and his begging. Please site the reference otherwise ,heresay.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Nov 21, 2013 -> 04:49 PM) Campaigning turns off voters. Everyone is fully aware of the Frank Thomas story. D0 you have anything but your opinion where someone would've voted for Santo had he not campaigned ? Maybe campaigning made other voters look harder at his production and got him votes too. The squeaky wheel gets the grease and as time goes byI don't think it hurts Frank at all to remind those voting that the game was a cesspool of cheating and hurt those not cheating tremendously.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Nov 21, 2013 -> 04:13 PM) He campaigned for the HOF. I realise that but you can't compare Santo's campaigning with Frank campaigning when Santo played in an era where the playing field was level and Frank played in an era where the cheaters got all the glory. Santo's numbers were fringe HOF worthy while Frank's numbers could look so much better had others not done steroids. Frank can only rely on his hitting stats since he wasn't a good fielder and played DH a lot. Santo made 9 All-Star teams on a level playing field . Thomas only had 5 competing against roiders. Giambi 5 All Star games from 2000-2004 . Mark McGwire 5 AS games for the AL from 1991-1997. Rafael Palmeiro 3 AS games between 1991-1999. Frank campaigns because he never got the credit he deserved because he played honest and others didn't . Guys like Bonds and Sosa and McGwire all were greatly admired during the HR Derby's that was baseball when Frank played. If you are meek in today's day and age your accomplihments get ignored. All Frank is doing is putting his numbers in the proper context.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Nov 21, 2013 -> 03:47 PM) Frank doesn't need to campaign like Ron Santo. What does Santo have to do with anything, he played in an era when the playing field was equal .

QUOTE (sircaffey @ Nov 21, 2013 -> 03:44 PM) And now you are a person from St. Louis overrating Conor Gillaspie. Don't think he overrated him just saying Conor has some upside value and he's a better fit at 3rd base than Freese being younger and LH and thats hard to argue . When saying Conor is better than Freese I'm pretty sure that was the gist of his argument rather than career numbers since Conor hasn't had much a career yet.

QUOTE (flavum @ Nov 21, 2013 -> 02:36 PM) Frank is on CSN at 5:30. Kinda wish he would let his numbers do the talking over the next couple months before the vote. All things being equal maybe he would, but he is a proud guy. Proud of what he accomplished and proud he didn't take roids. Baseball was so rampart with roids that I think he does need to constantly remind people of all the guys who set records and won MVPs juiced. Take steroids out of the game and maybe you get the power numbers getting produce today in which case Frank's numbers look even more monstrous. The guy was robbed of MVP's ,All star appearances maybe even a championship when you look at roiders team success also. Letting his numbers do the talking would look so much better if everyone else didn't cheat.

QUOTE (CWSpalehoseCWS @ Nov 21, 2013 -> 02:51 PM) 4 years?! Are they nuts? He's isn't even that good of a pitcher. I can't imagine what Garza and Santana must be thinking. If the demand for mediocre pitchers is that high the Sox should make off with a nice hall if the trade one of Santiago/Q. That's why Hahn is being patient. He's going to see a lot of high contracts signed by a lot of mediocre players and when GM's come calling looking for a Sox pitcher he can compare them to guys who just signed big deals like Vargas to accentuate the point that our guy(s) are worth substantially more then what's being offered.

QUOTE (Andy the Clown @ Nov 20, 2013 -> 05:33 PM) It doesn't really matter. As soon as Miggy starts to decline, they're done. Except he's a free agent in 2016 unless they use the money saved to extent him.

QUOTE (Dunt @ Nov 20, 2013 -> 07:15 PM) Interested to see how Rick responds to this trade I don't think anything Hahn does will be as a response to this trade. He will do what he does based solely on the Sox needs.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Nov 20, 2013 -> 07:51 PM) I think in this runs environment, the price of middle of the field, young impact players is eclipsing young pitching by a fairly reasonable margin. Not sure how many GM's feel this way, but I certainly would. If I had a potential impact catcher, SS, or cf, it would take a very talented young pitcher to bring him back. Maybe Mozeliak feels that way since the Cards seem to be stockpiling SS's which means they don't think Kozma or even their AAA SS Greg Garcia is the "young controllable SS" they desire but they did just add him to the 40 man roster to protect him from the Rule V draft. I think Alexei would thrive in the NL and if i were in Hahn's shoes I would ask for Garcia and Piscotty and let Mozeliak weigh how important Alexei might be to winning the championship that eluded them last year but I still don't think the Cards are willing to trade unless they give up pitching .

QUOTE (mike65 @ Nov 20, 2013 -> 07:05 PM) Since I have been a proponent of Ramirez to the Cardinals since July, I hope you are right. I think the Cardinals options on the trade market are the White Sox and the Angels (maybe San Diego or Cleveland but doubtful), Drew or Peralta in FA, or the Cuban defector with the incredibly long last name. Since Hahn and Mozeliak spoke about Ramirez this summer, it shouldn't take long to strike a deal, right? Alexei might be the 1st Sox player traded since he's over 30 , still has value but also has a $10M contract for the next 2 years. I think the Cards would get good value for those 2 years but the Sox might have a hard time finding a replacement unless the Cards offer us a SS back . However Hahn is looking for near ML ready players , guys who might be able to step right into the starting lineup and Jim Bowden said this "Mozeliak made it clear to us this morning that he'd like to trade a young "starting pitcher": for a "young controllable shortstop" . They might not be a match . Alexei isnt young but he is controllable for 2 yrs plus an option year so it's not like he would cripple the Cards with a bad contract. The Sox strength is young starters but we're likely to move move one of them . It's like a longshot they end up trade partners because both GM's are stubborn about getting guys they want. But you have all those SS's in your sytem and having Alexei for 2 or 3 years would certainly give them a chance to develop .

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Nov 20, 2013 -> 05:33 PM) Of course, most of their (A's) success is predicated on pitching/bullpen and the trade for and eventual emergence of Josh Donaldson. The White Sox simply need another version of Quentin/Donaldson (in 2008/09, Danks/Alexei/Floyd/Quentin). Easier said than done. And Abreu has to have a huge impact, like Cespedes and Puig. They simply can't afford to be wrong on that move. But that's definitely the model the White Sox should be following. Then, when they're closer to being able to compete, they can add those "glue/complementary" pieces like a CoCo Crisp, Lowrie, Vogt, etc. In order for Abreu to have a huge impact I would feel much more comfortable with another bat behind him. If he shows he can hit he's going to be intentionally walked an awful lot without any protection.

QUOTE (CWSpalehoseCWS @ Nov 20, 2013 -> 06:45 PM) But Sanchez doesn't belong on the bench, he's still so young and needs to be playing everyday. And Wilkins is completely limited to 1B, which is the one position the Sox don't need at this point. I wouldn't be surprised to see Wilkins claimed in the Rule V, considering McGuiness got claimed last year with similar numbers. Anyone have any clue as to why McDade and Heath are still on the 40-man? You can't tell me the Sox can't find a better option than either of those two in the minor league FA pool... I only mention Sanchez because his season in the minors had many discouraged about him. I don't know the level of play in the Venezuelan League, perhaps it is High A or double AA and Sanchez is still primarily a singles hitter but nice to see him doing well and maybe he can rebound this season in the minors.

QUOTE (Marty34 @ Nov 20, 2013 -> 06:47 PM) Kinsler will be an albatross for the Tigers. Even though Fielders numbers have declined the last 2 years , Cabrera still won 2 MVP's with Fielder behind him and got less intentional walks. Does Cabrera move to 1st ? Does Kinsler play 1st, Cabrera 3rd and the Tigers go after Robinson Cano ? Or is it money freed up to try and resign Scherzer and/or extend Verlander ? Tigers did very well to get out from under that contract and I have a suspicion they have another interesting move coming.

QUOTE (CWSpalehoseCWS @ Nov 20, 2013 -> 04:35 PM) That makes a lot of sense actually. Although, then the Sox really don't have a veteran presence off the bench. IDK if that is necessarily important, but I'm not sure how I feel of a bunch of young players making up the bench. Carlos Sanchez is the 3rd leading hitter in the Venezeulan Winter League. .361 BA 119 AB 43 hits, 2 doubles, 2 triples, 1 HR, 13 BB , 20 K , .434 OBP , .437 SLG, .871 OPS http://mlb.mlb.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?po...&pid=570560 Andy Wilkins there also doing well http://mlb.mlb.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?po...&pid=519421

QUOTE (Jake @ Nov 20, 2013 -> 02:41 PM) http://brooksbaseball.net/outcome.php?play...13&s_type=2 He quit using his screwball when he went to the bullpen because he needed more time in warmups to find his release point. He just throws an odd one here and there now. Maybe, with an offseason of being relatively certain that he gets the rotation spot he deserves, he will be able to implement his screwgie. What is amazing is that he almost never used a changeup before that and turned it into a useable pitch on the fly a year after pulling a screwball out of his ass and making that into a good pitch. His ability to learn pitches as well as use his fastball to get outs has been astounding. Maybe should try a split finger pitch then. A lot of pitchers have sucess with it. I can't even remember the last guy the Sox had who threw one unless you count Contrersas and his forkball. Doesn't seem like they teach it in the Sox system perhaps because it's hard on the elbow and shoulder ?

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Nov 19, 2013 -> 02:11 PM) A trade works too and I missed if I failed to include that this time. Basically my perspective is this. If the scouts say the Sox have a remote chance of having a long-term option in Phlowgley, then maybe you look for a LH hitting backup and go with 1 of them as the starter. If they say you're screwed if you count on these people, then you need to come away with a long-term option somewhere and get working on them. If you've got a trade that works, great, do it. The only thing I don't want to see is a 1 year stopgap starter that actually costs money. $500k is ok, but anything more than that is completely backwards and the opposite of everything we should be doing. I think we're pretty similiar in our thinking except for the bolded part. You're not going to get much of anything for that price. I think a veteran LH at catcher is necessary and a platoon isnt backwards or the opposite of everything we should be doing just the reality of catching these days.

QUOTE (raBBit @ Nov 19, 2013 -> 01:26 PM) Not trying to be one of those guys but Phegley had an OBP of .223 in quite a decent sample size. Flowers has outperformed Phegley in that respect every season in all sorts of varying sample sizes. I am not making a case that Flowers should start, just that he is a better back up than Phegley. It's cool . We're arguing about the tallest midget here. I think Flowers had his shot and he'll never be able to hit. I'll go with the younger guy until Phegley has had his comparative shot . I wouldn't be upset at all about Flowers being a backup (again) while Phegs get more AB's in the minors as long as we have a LH catcher for most of the AB's against righties .

QUOTE (Jake @ Nov 19, 2013 -> 01:21 PM) Phegley had a 34 wRC+ last year. 34!! His "good" month, July, was 59. Then 28. Then 17. He had the worst wRC+ of any MLB player that had as many at-bats as he did. Among the big sluggers who hit better are Jeff Francouer, Jamey Carroll, Brendan Ryan, Pete Kozma, Chris Getz, B.J. "worst season ever" Upton, Tyler Flowers, Jeff Keppinger. This is a rate stat, meaning those players didn't have an advantage by having more plate appearances. He was just literally the worst batter in all of baseball. This wasn't a deal where he started looking better as time went on, either. It was pretty much unfathomable awfulness after the first 5 games or so. He got progressively worse. That doesn't mean he sucks or should be released, but it makes little sense at this point to argue that he should do well in the MLB. He has been pushed aggressively throughout his career and he needs more fine tuning. Being in MLB made him worse. He needs to go hit in AAA again - it was the first time his wRC+ ever rated him as above his league's average, short of two o Trust me I am not enamored of Phegley but i am moreso than Flowers who has had 3 years to show something, anything and he hasn't. As I said before Phegley's progression has been severly stunted due to health and defintely can use more developmental time. He just was having a good year in the minors and the Sox had huge problems at catcher. He had to be given a shot. Yes he was terrible as was every catcher on the team last year. Degree's of terrible are still terrible and I can aceept it a lot more with Phegley than I can with Flowers because it was his 1st crack at the Bigs.