RockRaines

A rotation with Haeger, BMAC, JG, VAZ, and MB would automatically make it the third best in our own division. Which would make it almost impossible to make the playoffs.

QUOTE(redandwhite @ Sep 5, 2006 -> 05:26 PM) found out names of girls I've begun to hang out with, etc. otherwise known as stalking?

The only problem with the kids can play team, is that you then basically null Thome, Konerko, and possibly Jose's careers. By the time our kids can play, it may be too late for those 3.

QUOTE(hammerhead johnson @ Sep 6, 2006 -> 02:29 PM) There are stupid baseball players, you know. We see them every day. But I have already conceded that Ozzie is a natural born leader. He just doesn't have the baseball smarts to supplement his leadership qualities. That is it, point blank. Yes, but he has been called a great baseball mind who understands the intricate pieces of the game. Even Tony "genius" laRussa said that Ozzie understanded the game better than most. It has been mentioned time and time again that during his playing days he was almost a coach on the field, and was given nothing but the highest praise from the Marlins and Expos organizations. I would say they know a little bit more about the situation than you do.

QUOTE(beautox @ Sep 6, 2006 -> 02:22 PM) I disagree with regards to Haeger, i do think he is ML ready, the organization also must feel highly of him if he was playing in the exhibition games this past ST, had a spot start at the ML level where he was nervous, and is up here as a call up; hopefully September will only further that point. Sickels said Broadway should be ready by mid '07 IF Haeger is strugling, than you bring him up, and you've lost nothing. But once again this depends where you stand on both Broadway and Haeger, you don't feel he is ready and i do, so only time is going to tell. I think the sox are in a great posisiton this offseason they've got Fields, Cotts, Jose, Garcia who look like they call could bring back a nice haul, and then they've got podsednik that some team might bank on a better year next year and is arb eligible, and Uribe who is slick with the glove but madding at the plate. Thats where we will agree to disagree. I agree with you on the trading chips. I think you can easily deal 2 arms out of our rotation this year, and get a good return from one or both, and move BMAC into it easily. I just dont agree on Haeger being ready. I think we will aquire an arm via trade or FA. I dont know if its time to give up on Jose, but I beleive that Freddy needs to be moved. Also PODS, Cotts, and fields can go as well IMO.

QUOTE(hammerhead johnson @ Sep 6, 2006 -> 02:20 PM) You are playing the "He got us to a World Series and therefore he is a smarter baseball man than any sox fan" card. That is just a tad too simplistic, no? I'm gonna need a little bit more than that. I have witnessed one too many boneheaded baseball decisions to buy into that line. And this whole Anderson thing is flat out embarassing. How bout his experience playing actual MLB baseball? Being a successful player? Being called a great baseball man by members of 3 organizations? If anyone on this board can raise their hand and say they have accomplished even one of those, then I would say we are almost as qualified to lead this team.

QUOTE(beautox @ Sep 6, 2006 -> 02:08 PM) Rock while i respect your opinion i disagree. Both Garcia + Jose are bad at stoping the running game, McCarthy is better than one of them at it and Haeger is a wash so in that sense you've already gotten better. We've seen flashes of what McCarthy could do last season and i feel along with others on this site that he has been misused. To cotend in this division we need to bring in cheap peices when possible. Mark/Jon/Javy are all having career worse years, and yet this offense has led this team to a good record. I'm expecting a return to career norms next year with those 3 and possibly a break out year in Javy. Factor in at the very least i expect league average ERAs from McCarthy and Haeger, and we're in contention again, also add to the fact we Have Sweeney in LF and possibly leading off next year getting on at a good clip regardless, and a SS that can produce at the plate, and i expect this team to contend for the division and WC. I understand your philosophy of making over the rotation with younger plays who give us payroll flexibility. But I think you are overrating Haeger just because he seems to be one of the only options. I actually think Broadway is further along at this point than Charlie. If we get rid of 2 of our arms this offseason, I would expect KW to either trade for an SP, or aquire one via FA. Haeger is not ready, or a viable option at this point IMO.

QUOTE(hammerhead johnson @ Sep 6, 2006 -> 02:02 PM) Ozzie is a natural born leader, but that doesn't mean that he's a smart baseball man. Can you see the difference? There are thousands of Sox fans who are capable of making better baseball decisions than Ozzie, but that doesn't mean that they are charismatic enough to lead men into battle. It's like you hopped in your time machine and just arrived here last week. This ain't the 1940s. We have computers and DVDRs and s*** like that. We can see plenty, but we're not leaders of men. That's the difference. Ozzie has always been called a smart baseball man by his peers, former teamates as well as the owner and GM of the teams he has worked for, including ours. I would say that is enough to validate his intelligence IMO.

QUOTE(beautox @ Sep 6, 2006 -> 01:56 PM) i never said Jose wasn't > Haeger as far as pitching but what i am saying is this MB, JG, Javy, McCarthy, Haeger > MB, JG, Jose, Javy, Garcia In the sense that if Javy has turned the corner he is a power pitcher and can be a #1 Garcia doesn't have "it" anymore, and for the reasons i stated above about Jose. the fact that we save a lot of money and lock up Joe and Mark and get the same production for 1/20th of cost out of McCarthy and Haeger, along with helping restock the farm and possibly getting a top tier SS, leads me to believe we should deal him and Garcia. I'm not looking at this on a 1-1 comparison between Jose + Haeger, infact just change that to Haeger & Garcia and McCarthy & Jose, but what is good for the sox organization as a whole, and waht will keep us young and in contention for years to come in a toughest division in baseball. You couldnt be more wrong. That rotation you have posted is atrocious. Javy hasnt turned the corner, what you see is what you get with him. Haeger has no business making our starting rotation next year. He should be a starter in the league for several years from now. Money is besides the point, just moving Freddy and putting BMAC in the rotation saves you money, putting Haeger in the rotation makes this team much worse.

QUOTE(NorthSideSox72 @ Sep 6, 2006 -> 10:57 AM) Anyone on this site who bikes regularly with gloves is already familiar with the concept. Ever wondered why there is usually a patch of soft, fuzzy fabric along the outside of the thumb of those biking gloves? Thats what its there for. Snot, sweat, dirt, blood, rain, mud, whatever gets in your face. true.

QUOTE(tonyho7476 @ Sep 6, 2006 -> 01:14 PM) If he was close enough to a sting-ray...he was doing something crazy... Meh. Stingrays are generally docile creatures. One of the most deadly poisons a spider can carry is housed in the body of a daddy long legs. Of course we have no problem messing with them.

QUOTE(beautox @ Sep 6, 2006 -> 01:32 PM) Well i'm glad you asked Rock. Jose is old, a health risk, and for about a year was the best pitcher in the game, also his contract is below market value and there is a weak FA class this offseason, all these things coupled make me think we should move him while we can andstill get a good return on him. Jose doesn't stop the running game either, so thats a wash with Haeger, plus with Jose moved we can apply that money to locking both Joe and Mark long term. Haeger is young, cheap, durable and knocking on the door, he should be given an oppertunity to start, and the white sox have a proud tradition of Knuckleballers, why stop now. We've seen how dominating they can be, if we can get a league average ERA from him(with the possibillity of much more) and save all that money to lock up people long term i would consider that a wise move. I also believe that Javy has turned a corner much like the afermentioned Jose did last year, and unlike Garcia hasn't lost his "stuff"; and even if he hasn't turned the corner next year we will have known our limits with Javy. Having him go out and dominate for 5-6innings every 5th day isn't the worst thing in the world, esp with the way our BP looks next year and Haeger in the rotation saves the least used BP in MLB even more allowing us to keep Javy on a tight leash. Jose>Haeger in every sense of pitching and baseball. Haeger is not ready for the show, and is probably worth more in the trade market than to the White Sox.

QUOTE(southsideirish @ Sep 5, 2006 -> 07:55 PM) I totally agree. I would also take Sweeney in left field and leadoff everyday instead of Pods. I'm not saying that he is a better fit than Ozuna, but if my choice was between Sweeney and Pods I choose Sweeney. At the very least he will greatly improve our defense. Yup. Sweeney against RHP, Ozuna against LHP. That shoudl be how it is for now. I even think Ryan may be a better baserunning threat than PODS at this point.

QUOTE(S720 @ Sep 6, 2006 -> 01:25 PM) Rock, I have nothing against Anderson, but to see people stating his value equivalent to Garland is just so absurd. Garland has been one of the best pitchers after the Allstar break. I am done with this thread. Go ahead and drink the Anderson Kool-Aid! How am I drinking the kool aid? A-row wouldnt have produced much better than BA this year. He basically contributes to about .1 percent of what is wrong with this team. If anything, his fielding has overcome alot of our shortcomings in the past several weeks. Garland is obviously more valuable, but that is comparing apples and oranges IMO.

QUOTE(S720 @ Sep 6, 2006 -> 01:17 PM) Give me a f****** break! It's just so absurd of you to even stating Anderson is equivalent to Garland in terms of helping the team to win games or even to stop the losing streak! Tell me how many games has BA won for us. How many times has he stopped our losing streak? I've seen so many times that he could not get the runners in. I even remembered one game when a man on third with one out, and he could not even lift a flyball so that the runner can score. You know what he did? Nothing, whiff! Strike out! Come on, you really think Anderson's good 2nd half has made this team slump? When he wasnt hitting a lick we were actually in 1st place. His glove has saved us more times that his bat has hurt us. Uribe is more of a liability IMO.

QUOTE(witesoxfan @ Sep 6, 2006 -> 01:11 PM) Giving up 4 runs in 18 innings is pitching poorly now? With Julian Tavarez and KASON GABBARD starting against the Sox? It's no longer about the pitching. It's about scoring some goddamn runs. we have probably the best offense in baseball, where was this pitching when we were scoring 5 runs a game?

QUOTE(southsideirish @ Sep 6, 2006 -> 01:14 PM) Holy s***! I actually agree with something you've said.

BA has been nothing but good IMO. His offense hasnt been hurting the team in this slump, and his defense has saved us many a time.

QUOTE(beautox @ Sep 6, 2006 -> 12:51 PM) Haeger also made his debut at 22, Wakefield made his at 26, i think Charlie should be in the rotation next season. We should deal Garcia + Jose and that will open spots for both McCarthy and Haeger. why the hell would you want to trade Jose to put a rookie knuckler with no real major league experience in the rotation? Plus its funny to see people calling for Charlie to be a middle reliever yet the thing that makes everyone on this board crazy is when relievers walk people and let people steal bases, two things that he would do all the time.

QUOTE(fathom @ Sep 6, 2006 -> 10:10 AM) Ok: - His team shows no intensity. Jerry Manuel was fired for this. - He leaves his starters in too long, which not only has led to higher ERAs for his starters, but it hasn't helped them with their fatigue this season. - He keeps playing Scott Podsednik, even though there are other alternatives. - He continues to put Mackowiak in CF, even though Mackowiak himself says he sucks out there. This team is nowhere close to the divided, lazy team that Jerry managed. Jerry wouldnt even openly tell his players what they were doing wrong. His starters have higher ERA's because they havent pitched well. Should he take all of them out after the 3rd inning? Freddy is done, Garland has turned it around because of Ozzie placing confidence in him, including taking him out early some games, and leaving him in in others. IN fact his career turn around has come because of Ozzie leaving him in to work out his own problems. Pods is a vet who has shown slumps can be turned around. If he is hurt, he hasnt let anyone know. I agree wtih playing BA every day, that is the only real thing I think he has done wrong.

QUOTE(whitesoxfan101 @ Sep 6, 2006 -> 10:03 AM) I just wish you guys would come up with a new argument. It's not his fault the pitching is bad, or that the hitting is bad when it is, and he brought us a championship. Nobody is naive enough to buy that crap anymore, and I wish a new defense of Ozzie would show up. I wish a REAL ciriticism of Ozzie would show up. The pitching sucks, the players cant hit in the clutch, its obviously the manager's fault!!!!! Oh how spoiled you all have become, longing for the days of Jerry Manuel.

QUOTE(GoSox05 @ Sep 6, 2006 -> 10:01 AM) I cant wait till this kid is starting. 21 or 22 years old and he looks like hes been in the league for 10 years. People will say he dosent have the power, but you know after this year. I want a guy who hits for good average, above average fielding, solid base running. Ill take all that for only 15-20 HR's a year. People dont realize that one thing this team lacks is someone who can get hits on a constant basis. Just hit singles. We have alot of power hitters, and pull hitters. One thing we lack is a true grinder. Sweeney showed last night that he would be valuable as he almost saved the game and got us a run if Crede hadnt hit into a DP.

QUOTE(fathom @ Sep 6, 2006 -> 09:49 AM) The reason we're close to being an elite team is due to our 3-4-5 this season. You put those guys on any team in baseball, and they're going to be strong. As for the injuries, it's not surprising. Even if a player says he's feeling ok, I think the human eye can see that some of these guys aren't even close to 100 pct (Garcia, Contreras, Thome, Pods?). Yes, you are right, we have never had a 3,4,5 combo like this, ever. We are an elite team because Ozzie is our manager, and because he won the big one for us last year. We have had offense like this before, and ridiculously underachieving teams as well. We are in the toughest division in baseball, and still are in the playoff hunt.

QUOTE(whitesoxfan101 @ Sep 6, 2006 -> 08:36 AM) Ozzie has still done an epic bad job this season, however if we were healthy we'd still probably make the playoffs. That doesn't change anything about Ozzie though, he's failed miserably at doing his biggest job, which is put players and the team in the best position to succeed, but is a testament to the job KW did once again. I won't go on though, I know with the Ozzie lovers that if we don't hit, it's not his fault, and if we don't pitch, it's not his fault. His only job is to get the players to play hard and play "Ozzieball!!" This tight clubhouse, tight team, and general lack of balls is nothing he can control, of course. He did his job last year, and should be manager for life. You are so full of crap. Every time he puts a player in any position this year, the player has failed. We are lucky, with this pitching staff, that we are even close to being in the playoffs. If we had Jerry Manuel or Terry Bevington would that make you happy? Ozzie is probably the best manager we have had in 50 years, and the only one you have seen bring us a World Series ring. BUt you are right, it is his fault that every changeup our staff throws gets rocked, that Paulie hit into 2 double plays last night. We are lucky to have Ozzie as our manager, without him we would never be considered one of the elite teams in the league like we are now.

2 great managerial moves by Ozzie last night. Keeping Javy in as long as possible, and starting Ryan Sweeney. Both almost stole us the game.