Milkman delivers

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Oct 7, 2011 -> 11:09 AM) You guys can keep trying to misconstrue the argument all you want, be so far no one has shown me a correlation of experience = results or no experience= no results. You bring up Joe Girardi, at what time does a guy get enough experience? What is your magic number, 1 year, 5 years, 20 years? The argument is that experience alone does not make a manager (neither good nor bad). I personally think the hire was an out of the box move, it remains to be seen whether it pays off or not, but I feel hes a huge upgrade to Ozzie, and I prefer him to Martinez/Alomar as well. I think you guys are the ones misconstruing things. Nobody (at least nobody that's any good) in modern baseball gets hired with no experience whatsoever. There's likely a reason for that. And since the Sox made this move, all of that standard practice is unnecessary garbage and we need to prove why it isn't QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Oct 7, 2011 -> 11:18 AM) Yeah, whatever the magic number, Robin didn't meet it. Perfect.

QUOTE (justBLAZE @ Oct 7, 2011 -> 10:59 AM) How does Ozzie dare calling himself Chicago tough, when that f***ing idiot quit on the team in June. Chicago tough is not quitting on your team NO MATTER what circumstances. SO GLAD HE IS GONE, again. Ozzie can say anything and to him and his family, it's the gospel truth. He could say "I'm a cosmonaut", and he'd be one. So, he only has to say he's Chicago tough, or that he's loyal, etc. and it's true.

QUOTE (PlaySumFnJurny @ Oct 7, 2011 -> 10:44 AM) One problem with the above is that Ozzie Jr wasn't a "member of the organization" late last week, but I don't disagree that the Guillens feed the beast. He's not still officially one of the Spanish announcers? And even if not, we don't know when those quotes were taken.

QUOTE (Steve9347 @ Oct 7, 2011 -> 10:00 AM) That's f***ing bulls***. Go save that poor pooch. And do what with him? QUOTE (Iwritecode @ Oct 7, 2011 -> 10:07 AM) I've always been under the impression that they try to adopt out the animals as long as they aren't aggressive and/or sick. Although we rescued a cat out of a tree in our yard one day and had animal control come and pick him up. We found out later that they put him down because he had a "sinus infection". He sure as hell didn't look or act sick when we gave him to them. He's about 12. I seriously doubt he's getting adopted. And he may have also had a hernia, but that could have been just a reason to get rid of him.

With those quotes and whom he attributes them to, it's incredibly easy to figure out who he's describing.

This is what I said in the Ventura thread, but I think it fits here. LOL, could this be any more obvious to anyone? -Ozzie Jr. -Ozzie or Cora (probably Ozzie) -Oney

QUOTE (LVSoxFan @ Oct 7, 2011 -> 10:39 AM) That's what I'm getting at Milkman: his sources are either Ozzie or one of the kids, if I had to guess. Or, more likely, both.

QUOTE (LVSoxFan @ Oct 7, 2011 -> 10:30 AM) I heard KW with Pat on WGN this morning and was like: wow. Man what is it with Cowley and Ozzie/KW? Is Ozzie paying him? I read the Cowley column and he kept quoting "major league sources" and all I could think of was: WHAT major league sources? Who outside of the Sox would know WTF is going on between Ozzie/Coop/KW? That said, Coop has been the one guy throughout all this that has been... consistent. His work speaks for itself. Read any Cowley column. He never says who his sources are. That's because it's the same couple of people every time. It's blatantly obvious.

QUOTE (Reddy @ Oct 7, 2011 -> 10:22 AM) ya know - i'm actually excited about it. at first i had the same gut "wtf" reaction as everyone else, but why the hell CAN'T he be good. You don't need pedigree to manage a baseball team - Girardi, Torre, and a billion others have gone right from being players to managers. I'm just so glad ozzie's gone - it's like starting with a clean slate. And one that doesn't have its own agenda - which is good. You can't have a GM building a team one way and a manager wanting to play another way. Obviously, as we found out, it doesn't work. that, and Robin Ventura 23 was white-out penned on my trapper keeper in elementary school. This is not true, and I'm tired of people saying it. Girardi was a bench coach, and the vast majority of managers in at least the last 30 years gained experience as coaches or minor league managers before becoming big league managers. You have to start going 50 years back to get a good amount of managers who had no experience whatsoever.

QUOTE (kev211 @ Oct 7, 2011 -> 02:12 AM) I'd be more upset with Kenny if he didn't put Konerko on waivers and see if he could get something for him. Agreed. He should be looking into moves every second of every day.

QUOTE (RockRaines @ Oct 7, 2011 -> 10:18 AM) Better PR would have been a coach who won a WS like TLA or Francona. Robin has years of playing and leadership experience in an MLB clubhouse. Its not that difficult to move from that to managing a clubhouse. They arent calling plays or inventing some new sort of baseball, he is leading a team that already has a player/coach in Konerko and several young kids that respect him from their offseasons and ST working with him. I think this fan base is different than most. We love our nostalgia and bringing back former players. And you mention Konerko, but aren't they two extremely similar people?

QUOTE (justBLAZE @ Oct 7, 2011 -> 09:56 AM) How much coaching/manager experience did Kirk Gibson have? In 2003, he was named the Tigers' bench coach by new Tigers manager and former Tigers teammate Alan Trammell. He served in that position until the midway point of the 2005 season when he was moved from bench coach to hitting coach, swapping positions with Bruce Fields. As of the start of the 2007 Major League Baseball season, Gibson became the new Arizona Diamondbacks bench coach.

QUOTE (fathom @ Oct 7, 2011 -> 09:55 AM) Milkman, you know you're my boy. Let me ask you this: what part of managing are you worried that Ventura won't be able to handle? I think he may be fine down the road, but he's got no experience whatsoever. And either way, contending or rebuilding, there are guys better suited to it than he was. As examples, Dave Martinez has been working with young guys for years, so he would have been much more suitable to a rebuilding team. Tony La Russa is a guy that you would bring in if you were thinking of competing right out of the gate because of his vast amount of experience with competitive, veteran teams. They didn't even bother to interview any of the other candidates, opting instead for the good PR that would come with a respected fan favorite.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Oct 7, 2011 -> 08:04 AM) He was for a short period of time. If his last season with the Sox was 2003, how could he have been on the same bench as Ozzie?

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Oct 7, 2011 -> 07:37 AM) Haha. QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Oct 7, 2011 -> 07:52 AM) This is the most important part. Right now I am pissed beyond all belief. I have been this mad with the organization twice. Once with the Brandon Mccarthy deal, and once when they let Robin walk away by offering a joke of a contract. Maybe he will turn out OK, but if you really want Ventura to manage, make him the bench coach for a few years next to someone with at least some coaching experience. Or let him manage in the minors. Don't make him the manager from day one. This is just awful. I couldn't agree more. We've been agreeing far too much recently, and it scares me. Do you agree that this was also a PR move to garner the good will of fans who loved him as a player?

QUOTE (fathom @ Oct 7, 2011 -> 05:59 AM) People are really upset that this might signal we're not going "all in" the next few years? Consider me relieved and hopeful that the organization will take a step back and see that there's a need to rebuild. I know I've received some ribbing due to praising the Tigers so much, but there's no reason that they aren't the class of the AL Central the next 2-3 years. I'd rather the Sox hope for Dunn and Rios to rebound instead of trying to cover their mistakes by bringing in other high-priced guys. That's another good thing about this signing. It should show that they are going to have a few "rebuilding" years.

QUOTE (Tex @ Oct 7, 2011 -> 05:42 AM) We've sat here for years watching Oz make some awful decisions. We are only guessing how Robin will manage, and clearly mostly here have decided he's going to be terrible. But terrible how? Making the same decisions as Oz? I don't believe he will. Of course I am guessing like everyone else. However, I believe his personality will be one of playing it safe. Following the traditional (stats friendly) route. I believe Robin is a follow the book not write the book kind of person. That could be a welcome breath of fresh air on the south side. I don't think anybody has said that, but that's obviously how it's going to be perceived.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Oct 7, 2011 -> 05:24 AM) http://www.google.com.hk/#hl=zh-CN&new...249&bih=473 Larry Dierker 435-348 (.556) 5 years of out 6 finishing in first place, one fourth place finish That would have been the best argument for hiring Don Cooper as the manager. Jerry Coleman was a complete disaster with the 1980 Padres and is always going to be known more as a broadcaster. And, of course, those Astros teams that Dierker managed had a ton of talent (funny how that usually has more to do with a manager's success---see the Trey Hillman disaster in KC, and reading back on how positive/optimistic Joe Posnanski was when the hire was announced, interesting to say the least). KW has left Robin's cabinet, being optimistic, at best...a glass half full. So, to summarize, Hodges, Stanky, Larry Dierker, Torre (eventually), Connie Mack and Bob Brenly all succeeded with zero prior managerial experience. You keep mentioning Brenly even though he was a coach. Dierker is the only one of that group that fits the bill and happened in the last half century.

QUOTE (SoxAce @ Oct 7, 2011 -> 05:19 AM) Ha. I thought my co-workers were kidding about this the whole time. Just found out now. Really weird to see, but Robin was a favorite of mine growing up so I think it's awesome. Now, from a baseball perspective I don't know, but I'll reserve judgment. I hope we find a way to deal these expensive fools and rebuild fully (hell even 1-2 gone would be nice) but definitely won't hold my breath. Exactly what they were looking for. QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Oct 7, 2011 -> 05:19 AM) A.J. Hinch similarly launched himself from the high dive when he was named to manage the Diamondbacks, and the move quickly cost Josh Byrnes his job as general manager. Hinch, like Ventura, was an intelligent former player with no managerial experience. There have been a lot of different paths taken to the manager's office, and managerial experience hasn't always proven necessary. Gil Hodges went directly from playing to managing, and he was one of the best managers in the last 50 years (to the chagrin of the 1969 Cubs). Eddie Stanky left the Giants after 1952 to be a player-manager for the Cardinals and went 88-66 in the first of his three-plus seasons. (He later managed the Sox for two-plus seasons, finishing above .500 in 1966-67.) Jerry Coleman and Larry Dierker prepped for their managerial careers as broadcasters. Trey Hillman had managed in Japan, but before taking over the Royals was last in a big-league clubhouse when he was a locker-room attendant. Bob Brenly had coached but never managed at any level before getting a chance, and his Diamondbacks won a World Series. If there ever has been a hire as out of left field as Ventura, it was a desperation move by the old Washington Senators. Ted Williams had been out of baseball eight seasons, doing little more than fishing and serving as a part-time instructor for Carl Yastrzemski and lesser Red Sox players, when the Senators hired him to manage. Four years later, he was the owner of a 273-364 record and never again wanted to try that trick. From Phil Rogers' article....no mention of Connie Mack, Torre or Ted Turner So, two guys from 50+ years ago and a guy who had experience as a coach.

QUOTE (MAX @ Oct 7, 2011 -> 04:00 AM) I am not purposefully singling you out. It seems as if half of the forum is basing their opinion on this hire on things they assume they know. And people supporting it are doing the same thing. The things they don't know are positive, though, so it's acceptable.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Oct 7, 2011 -> 02:46 AM) I just read all the Trib articles and Lamont's quotes and this is a scary hire. Yes I believe Cowley. If he's wrong, he's putting his job on the line. What Cooper did is really sleazy. Nobody likes a backstabber. It's WRONG. If this was the 1950s, Ozzie would beat his ass. But nowadays he'll spend time in prison for smashing Coop a good one in the nose. (I'm assuming the article is true; if not, my bad). You continuously talk about Ozzie physically beating someone up. Don Cooper has probably around 80 pounds on Ozzie Guillen and a height advantage. He'd beat the piss out of Ozzie, as would KW and almost anyone else you can think of. Ozzie Guillen is a little b****, just like the rest of his family. He talks a big game, but he's a p****.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Oct 7, 2011 -> 08:26 AM) He's killing your dog because it was peeing in the house? Yeah, basically. He's never been a huge fan of it, and they honestly are on a tight budget so any additional medication would be a burder, but it's a s***ty situation for sure.

QUOTE (Paulstar @ Oct 7, 2011 -> 01:06 AM) My favorite thing about Ventura is that when no one thought he could cut it at 3B, he worked hard and transformed himself into a gold glove third baseman. I really hope he does the same thing as manager for the Sox. I really don't understand the outrage about this hire. Surprising? Yeah, but there were worse moves you could have made. There is no doubt that Ventura knows baseball as well, if not better, than the other candidates. There is no doubt that Ventura is a good person and hard working. The only doubt there is about Ventura is how well he can manage a clubhouse and players. But I feel that Ventura is such a respected and smart player that he might be able to learn quick. Will he succeed or fail? I don't know, but I think he has decent odds. One thing I know for sure though, he will be easy to root for because he is a great person who loves baseball and hopefully won't make a full out of himself and bash the whole fan base when things don't go right. "There were worse moves you could have made." High praise, and I (for some reason I'm not even sure of anymore) hope for a higher standard. As to the bold part, I don't know how you can say such things, especially that there is "no doubt" about it. We don't know that, as we don't know that he knows less than the other candidates.

QUOTE (Kenny Hates Prospects @ Oct 7, 2011 -> 12:23 AM) Is there actually such a thing as a Sox fan anymore? By that I mean, is there anyone out there who hopes the team does well, and who would rather be positive about the future? I find it kind of strange that coming off one of the most disappointing Sox seasons in history that there are still people out there who not only think we can do much worse, but also seem to hope we do worse, and appear to be eager to see the team fail so they can be "right" rather than enjoy a future season of competitive baseball. I don't know about anybody else, but I hope the Sox lose every game next season and that all of the players get AIDS. That's just me, though. Oh, and I will be especially happy if I'm right about all of this.

QUOTE (whitesoxfan101 @ Oct 7, 2011 -> 12:10 AM) Who our manager is won't matter in 2012 because we're going to suck. It might not even matter in 2013 or 2014. This move gives Kenny a guy he can tell what to do, JR a former player he can try to promote, and the Sox as a whole a few years of "rebuilding" as an excuse. As for Robin, who the hell knows if he'll be any good. Which is why this move is so bizarre that you can't rip it, but also can't understand it. We're screwed as long as Kenny Williams is here anyway IMO. Letting him stay around after the last few years is basically like letting a guy who burned down a house and pissed on the ashes attempt to rebuild the house when he's never built a house from scratch before. I just hope that one day, Robin gets a talented enough team to prove to us whether or not he can manage. I don't have faith he will. I love that analogy And I know people will just dismiss this by saying that most of them failed, but I checked through the last 3 managers of each AL team. The only guys with no previous experience in any type of coaching or managing background were Joe Torre (again, back in 1977 after he was a player-manager) and Alan Trammell. I'm too lazy to go through the NL right now.