southsider2k5

QUOTE (JenksIsMyHero @ Sep 14, 2017 -> 08:14 AM) http://www.politico.com/story/2017/09/13/t...essaging-242607 This comes out the same time as Hillary's "it wasn't my fault" tour. Dems better change the message if they want to retake congress or the White House. In typical Clinton fashion, they are looking to take down everyone they can, even if it hurts their own party and party's agenda going forward.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Sep 13, 2017 -> 07:31 PM) The still had zero service time in MLB. I don't see why it isn't negotiable Because Otani can't sign a major league contract.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Sep 13, 2017 -> 07:04 PM) I think his only choice is something like an opt out after 3 years. He is taking a big chance financially, but if he can become a free agent after 3 seasons, and is any good, he may be one of the few who opt out that teams didn't regret re-signing. The opt out IMO is at least some sort of advantage for teams. Most big money guys, you give them a contract the last couple of years you want no part of. The opt out eliminates that, if the team can walk away. They get the worth it seasons, and in most cases are given a gift. When the player wants more money.See Belle, Albert, Rodriquez, Alex, Sabattiia, Captain Cheeseburger. The White Sox were happy to let Albert go, the Yankees wish they let their guys go.This guy might be one of the exceptions. When every one of those guys signed a deal with an opt out they were major league free agents. Otani is not. I can't recall a situation where a player who was signed as an amateur received an opt out deal where the opt out was before their 6 years of service was up. All players that have received that option were international players who were not in the lower age bracket for international free agents, they were all considered both professionally experienced AND old enough to sign a major league deal initially.

QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Sep 13, 2017 -> 06:50 PM) And yet you cannot point to 1 MLB contract ever voided after a successful 1st year of an international player in which a contract extension was offered.Other cases are not the same. As you said to me I will say to you unless you can find a similar player in similar circumstances you have no basis in reality. That is all we need to know. You are not a lawyer either. Nor am I. So we can argue about it until the cows come home. . It probably never happens but I think you and I won't be the only ones arguing this. We will see plenty of it soon enough. I think there's a chance MLB would void such a contract but it holding up is another thing. I will also add that 6 kids who sign for bonus money and have contributed nothing to a winning major league team is nothing like Otani having a good 1st season and contributing to the profitability of the parent club, I don't accept those comparisons as valid. I have given you examples, you keep choosing to ignore them for the idea that performance somehow outweighs contract law. Ask Joe Smith how that worked out for him. It all boils down to one central theme. There are rules in place that govern contract negotiations for specific situations. MLB is already on record as saying they will protect the integrity of this process. MLB has already acted in a spot where the integrity of the process was violated by voiding contracts. The NBA has also acted in voiding the contract of a #1 draft pick superstar free agent who exactly in the scenario we are talking about today had a secondary contract negotiated in violation of the leagues collective bargaining agreement and saw his contract extension voided by the league. Trying to imagine contract law as different because of some concocted scenario is what isn't valid. You cannot negotiate a major league contract extension while negotiating a minor league deal under the new collective bargaining agreement. Period. End of story. MLB is already on record as saying they won't allow it to happen. You are fully ignoring history here for no good reason. Unless you have some facts to back up your argument, this is all imaginary and not real.

QUOTE (BigSqwert @ Sep 13, 2017 -> 06:03 PM) I thought only dictatorships demand people get fired for criticism. Only the left has the right.

QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Sep 13, 2017 -> 05:05 PM) One point you tell me is the precedent has already been set and I ask you who and you tell me it doesn't matter. To me that means no precedent has been set if no one EVER in MLB under the current CBA has had their contract voided. It's not like I'm arguing something that is completely impossible. Your own article you posted said the same thing that I am arguing about. It won't be easy to void a contract extension IF Otani has a successful year one. If there is a legal battle involved it won't be a walk in the park for MLB to win especially if they can 't prove a handshake agreement was in place before he signed with that team in the first place.\ I will keep using that quote even if it was written by a layman and not a labor lawyer because it points out the whole crux of the matter. "The Pandora's box of MLB intervening in contracts, though, is one that it dare not open, not in the name of enforcing a rule as flaccid as the international restrictions may prove to be". #1, source in bold. #2, IT HAS BEEN DONE, both by MLB and by the NBA. The MiLB vs MLB part doesn't matter. All contracts are subject to the commissioners office per the CBA. Did the Red Sox sue to over turn it? Did the Minnesota Timerwolves sue to overturn the Joe Smith ruling? That is two (actually six as Boston had five deals voided) examples of violations of CBAs where the governing body took exactly the action I am describing for exactly the reason you are describing here. Legally there is precedence, and the lack of a lawsuit only proves how strong the ability for MLB to void contracts is. #3, unless you can find a comparative contract to justify Otani by, you have no basis in reality. I have given you comps, cases, and examples of other contracts that you could get away with. You have given nothing except a quote from a source who you admit isn't a labor lawyer. It also misses the fact that pandoras box is already open.

KC just ran themselves out of that inning.

QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Sep 13, 2017 -> 04:02 PM) You see it your way . I see it mine. It's just a slippery slope MLB would rather avoid in my eyes. If a reasonable and justifiable contract extension for a successful 1st year Otani where the Sox could prove how his presence gave them huge financials gains and those gains were reflected in his contract. , MLB would be hard pressed to do something unprecedented legally like restrict his earning opportunities when that raise would be completely justified. This is the key here and the point I have been trying to make the whole time. But a deal like you described of 3/40 to 3/60 comes no where close to that. As to the last sentence, this is NOT legally unprecedented at all. I have given you multiple examples of this being done, both by MLB, and by the NBA which does not own an anti-trust exemption to fall back on. If you negotiate a contract in direct violation of the collective bargaining agreement the contract can and will be voided. It has been done by MLB and by the NBA.

That strike one call changed that whole sequence. It was probably 4 inches low, maybe more.

Giolito in his last 4 starts 25.2IP 5ER 13H 11BB 22K 2.10 ERA 1.013 WHIP, including the inherited runner scoring this inning.

QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Sep 13, 2017 -> 03:31 PM) Who's contract has ever been voided at the major league level ? The technicality doesn't matter. The office of the Commissioner holds extraordinary powers with their anti-trust exemption in place. They have already voided contracts for violations of these exact rules, without a single problem. They also have the precedent of Joe Smith's contract being voided in the NBA for negotiation of an extension in violation of existing rules. Everything lines up on the MLB side here.

QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Sep 13, 2017 -> 03:25 PM) You actually made my argument stronger with that article with what is in that article " The Pandora's box of MLB intervening in contracts, though, is one that it dare not open, not in the name of enforcing a rule as flaccid as the international restrictions may prove to be". That is exactly what I have been saying. The legal implications involved in voiding a contract for a Major leaguer not some Boston 16-18yrs olds would be huge and want to be avoided at all costs. The precedent has already been set. They can and have done it. If a team puts MLB into the position of doing it again, they will.

QUOTE (soxfan2014 @ Sep 13, 2017 -> 03:04 PM) It seems like a team could extend him but if it's some sort of crazy amount and with opt-outs, it's obvious that it was negotiated at the time he was picking a team. You could absolutely negotiate an extension. It can't be out of line with what has been done historically. Taking Anderson's record setting deal as a base line, Anderson got this. The early years won't see much difference, but maybe you can add a couple million a year to years 4-6 and a few million more to the years on the back end. Maybe even guarantee the 7th year and increase the buyout a bit. 2017: $850,000 2018: $1,000,000 2019: $1,400,000 2020: $4,000,000 2021: $7,250,000 2022: $9,500,000 There are two club options as part of the deal that cover Anderson's first two years of free agency eligibility. If the White Sox activate them, they will be for: 2023: $12,500,000 2024: $14,000,000 If they White Sox do not pick up a club option, the buyout is $1 million. Build it like this for Otani. This would get him about $30 million for his first 6 years, compared to Anderson's $24 million so it isn't too crazy if you want to give some slack for his two way skills being unique and worth more. It would also promise the first free agent year at a big number, but one that is sub-free agent market too, plus an option for an 8th year, like Anderson has. The buyout would be more along the lines of a free agents buyout number. 2018- $550,000 2019- $1.25m 2020- $1.7m 2021- $5m 2022- $10m 2023- $12m 2024- $16m *2025- $20m option ($5m buyout)

I am going to guess the exit velocity on that one was a bit higher than 71 mph.

Richard Justice‏Verified account @richardjustice 5m5 minutes ago Finally... @Indians have trailed for four of 189 innings during win streak.

QUOTE (soxfan2014 @ Sep 13, 2017 -> 02:52 PM) Except in that situation, the A's offered the most annual salary. That's what made it a big surprise. We don't have that luxury here. This. The Sox have a snowballs shot in hell of signing Otani because they can offer him about 3% of what the top teams can offer.

QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Sep 13, 2017 -> 02:49 PM) Oh well then we just disagree. The league is not in the happen of voiding MLB deals and probably would want to avoid it at all costs. When you throw in what a successful Otani would mean to a franchise that team could easily argue a contract I mentioned is not out of line with his value . The league would not just say we are voiding that contract without due process . The only reason a guy like Trout didn't get big money sooner is because it's rather stupid for teams togive big money to players that early because they hold all the cards for 6 years . Again the Otani situation is unique and arguing over what kind of contract extension gets voided or not seem trite at this point in time. We'll see how it unfolds down the road. There's a long way to go before any team even reaches that point. I think you are making this out to be my opinion. There are decades of contracts that serve at the basis for what can and can't be done for Otani. He is going to be signed as a young amateur free agent. When he is brought to the majors it will be the same as if he were any other player player recalled from the minors to the majors for the first time off of an MiLB contract. MLB has already flat out stated that a team can't have a secondary deal in place for a contract that is out of line with what has been done in the past. https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/why-this...this-offseason/ If historicals dictate that players top out at $3-5 million in their first three years, and Otani gets a 3 year $60 million extension within his first year, when the best ever extension for a player within his first year is Tim Anderson at 6years/$32.5m, they will force MLB to act. They don't want to void contracts, but they did exactly that to Boston voiding their entire international signings class in 2015 when they voided 5 contracts AND they banned them from high dollar signings on top of it as a penalty for breaking these exact rules.

Dan Hayes @CSNHayesThe average exit velocity off the 13 balls in play recorded vs. Lucas Giolito is 71 mph. Only two balls have been hard hit.`

QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Sep 13, 2017 -> 02:34 PM) To you it's moot and I will agree it's unlikely the Sox get him but why not the Sox? It is certainly worth debating the pros and cons of this very unique situation where the money makes no difference and all teams have a shot. Sure maybe not all teams in Otani's mind but hell all you have to do is see Cespedes signed with Oakland of all teams to understand stranger things have happened. Cespedes is a completely different situation as he had none of the restrictions that young international players have now.

QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Sep 13, 2017 -> 02:22 PM) You are the only one saying $100M . I certainly never said it. I just said a contract more than Andersons. Do you think 3 years $40-60M would be voided with an opt out to become a free agent ? I mean we can go through all kinds of uniquely structured deals that would not kill the Sox and gives Otani free agency after a few years. 3 years? Absolutely. Any deal is going to have to follow closely to the historicals of what players get paid around baseball in years 1-6 based on their performance. No players are going to get paid more than $5 million for their first three years of major league service. Again, it is all about the comps. Players make half a million or SLIGHTLY above it their first year. They might get a bit more than that their second year, but even the top players are going to make about a million dollars their second year. Mike Trout made $510k his second full year, and $1 million for his 3rd. That is about $2 million total for one of the best first three years in MLB history. Tim Anderson who signed a super early extension to get some money up front is getting $850k for his first full year, $1 mil for his second year, and $1.4 for his third. That is slightly over $3 million for his first three full years. A 3/40 deal in his first year would be thrown out quick. You'd need a deal of AT LEAST six years to be able to argue for a $40 million contract.

I like seeing Giolito have innings like this to see how he makes adjustments mentally. I like it even better to see him pitch out with no damage.

QUOTE (Harry Chappas @ Sep 13, 2017 -> 02:10 PM) Does he go through the posting process? If so, Don't teams have to bid on him and the $300K/$10M is not the issue but who gives the most money to this controlling team to win the bid similar to Tanaka. Can it have been written in a contract somewhere that he splits that fee 50/50? Can this fee be $100M? The fee is now capped at $20m. I would imagine pretty much every team in baseball will bid that so they can negotiate with them.

QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Sep 13, 2017 -> 01:53 PM) However in the scenario I mentioned about Otani being an instant success as a hitter and pitcher there would be literally no one to compare him. In that kind of 1st year while paying him minimum wage MLB salary and the 300K bonus the Sox stand to make millions of dollars in endorsements and at the box office. He would be unlike any kind of 1st year player ever if he can be a successful 2 way player. Therefore it is reasonable to assume a contract extension that was uniquely structured would not be out of line based on his unique situation. They would simply be paying him what he is worth to the franchise. There is zero chance they let a $100 million contract happen after a 1st year. Even Mike Trout didn't get a $100 million contract until his 3rd year of baseball, and that is with two and a half years of MVP numbers first.

Hopefully Engel keeps hitting and can push himself back over .200 by the end of the year.

QUOTE (GenericUserName @ Sep 13, 2017 -> 01:35 PM) I thought that the consensus was that there basically was going to be some tampering and whatever teams tried to sign him were just going to have to hide it. I guess we really don't know what is going to happen for his signing. Ill say this though, he is probably going to be one of the most talked about names in baseball by next season without ever having played an inning. Thats gotta help get some endorsements that takes the sting out of losing out on the big contract right away. The one thing that MLB can do, and did do in the case of Boston's international signings a few years back, would be to void the contract and make him a completely free agent.