Dick Allen

QUOTE (scs787 @ Aug 5, 2014 -> 10:40 AM) Like I said I'm not sure if it's meant to be used on a year to year basis. This does show you how fickle bullpen arms can be from a year to year basis. I ask you, how is Hahn supposed to predict those guys, who obviously had success last year, would fail? BTW, I've been "against" the FIP stat, notice how I said "People". I could do the same thing with ERA and it still looks good. Projection is a FO's job. People on this board project both an increase in production and a decrease. One thing that doesn't make sense to me is if a relief pitcher's performance greatly varies from year to year, why would anyone use the previous season as the indicator for how they will perform in the current season? Regression and breakouts happen all the time. The Sox have a couple of breakouts in Petricka and Putnam. Next year, those guys both could be regressions.

QUOTE (scs787 @ Aug 5, 2014 -> 10:24 AM) People always say that FIP is "A better indicator of future success", so with that said here is look at the bullpen Hahn built...Kinda. ( Closer- Nate Jones- 2.64 Matt Lindstrom- 3.15 Scott Downs- 3.09 Ronald Belisario- 3.64 Daniel Webb- 2.34 Jake Petricka- 3.72 Now I'm not sure that the whole future success thing should really be used on a year to to year basis, but this shows you just how "good" the guys he brought together were last year. Those guys duplicate those numbers this year, which I'm sure Hahn was hoping for, then the bullpen is fine. Greg, VA, and whoever else who is arguing otherwise, please, explain how Rick Hahn is supposed to know these guys were gonna fail. Their regular ERA and FIP were good, so what else can he go off of? If you can't can't come up with a reason, then why blame Hahn? If FIP is an indicator of future success, it appears it needs a bit of fine tuning.

Baez is one year older than Courtney Hawkins. If Hawkins were putting up the same numbers in AAA next year, this board would want to see him in Chicago. Besides, if Baez is going to be a bust, who cares about super 2 status?

He was incredibly hot and lucky for a stretch. Then he went into a streak hardly any non pitcher has every had, now he is incredibly hot again. Flowers always was really streaky. Even when he was putting up big numbers in the minors. This year, I doubt he winds up .250, but some of that could be attributed to a cold spell that really is abnormal as much as maintaining a .380 BABIP. Ride out and enjoy the hot streak. A cold one is coming. They always do, but at least he has shown he does have the ability to be decent. It would be nice if he could just be more consistent.

A co worker an i were wondering, since Thome signed a 1 day contract with the Tribe and then officially retired, does his HOF waiting period begin now or when he last played?

QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Aug 4, 2014 -> 08:22 PM) Other than his monster free agent year, he wasn't really that great of a hitter until age 31. He has been top 10 in the MVP vote 5 times, and he is one of the greatest fielding 3b of all time. Should have well over 400 homers. Ithink he is if he can stay clear of steroid talk. I don't trust he has been clean his whole career.

This bouncing off the top is unreal. That is bad luck.

QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Aug 4, 2014 -> 08:12 PM) I've tried this tactic with him. Brought up getting on those who critique Ventura in hindsight or 2nd guessing him and while he gets on Hahn. But he swears he isn't using hindsight, says he was critical of that trade from get go ,oops ,wait now its from the start of spring training thanks to SSk2 doing some detective work. I was like fine so which plan have you advocated the Sox (Hahn) follow ? Contend every year , spend the max on payroll every year or Hahn's plan to build up the core 1st because its a rebuild and try for sustained success while limiting costs for but spending more for special occasions, because the Sox don't have a lot of things going for them financially to be able to do both at the same time. He danced around the question every time never giving a straight answer. Then he went on the attack trying to divert my attention from him onto me, but I know his M.O. so I didn't bite. I politely called him a guy who plays devil's advocate to stir the pot which others would call a troll. I'm not even as anti troll as most people on a message board are because it can generate conversation for Jason's sake and the sake of keeping Soxtalk around awhile it aint all bad . LMAO.

Is Beltre a HOFer?

What happen to Rios' power?

QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Aug 4, 2014 -> 06:56 PM) Nothing, he is offering a false equivalency scenario just like you did a few posts up. I really don't understand. Towers specifically said he was targeting power then he trades Davidson. People said Davidson is a middle of the order power bat. Towers is wrong sometimes too. But apparenty he was correct to dump Davidson. And considering Reed supposedly sucks, it is really baffling he wasn't given a better offer. The discussion is the Reed/ Davidson trade. I think mentioning if he could reverse it is relevant.

QUOTE (Jake @ Aug 4, 2014 -> 05:06 PM) It's nice to see the Cubs have decided to give a s*** about their fans and just try to put one of the organization's better players on the field. I mean, it's not nice because f*** the Cubs, but I wouldn't mind as a fan of theirs that they made this decision without considering the Super 2 bulls***. I agree. If the guy earned a promotion, promote him. It is not like after a new TV contract and a renovated stadium with additional revenue sources the Cubs are the Tampa Bay Rays.

QUOTE (Vance Law @ Aug 4, 2014 -> 06:45 PM) How about if the D'Backs were offered back Eaton and Skaggs for Trumbo? What does that have to do with anything? Apparently you are one person who thinks it is impossible for Hahn to make a bad move. Even he would disagree with you. I thought signing Beli was a decent move, but it turns out that was wrong. Every GM makes mistakes. I pointed out your boy Rick made several great moves, but this one was bad.

QUOTE (Vance Law @ Aug 4, 2014 -> 06:30 PM) Is your point that the D'Back are really smart, and make all the right moves? Since they are the smartest they knew to unload Davidson to get Reed? Where were their smarts in the Eaton/Skaggs trade? While you're at it, look at it in the context of them just trading away Parra. Do you think if they had it to do over again they'd trade Parra at his peak value in the offseason and still have Eaton right now? Is your point that the DBack's GM is a genius who was intending to compete this year and so traded away a prospect for a closer who is getting more expensive and they are 14 games under .500 and have Mark Trumbo instead of Eaton and Skaggs? Take a breath. My point was he was willing to overpay for power. If he was as high on Davidson as Soxtalk, and I am guessing he has better reports, I doubt he overpays for power. Something didn't add up in my mind. Right or wrong that is the truth.

If you needed to build an entire team and you could trade them, I would take Sale. I think he gets you a bigger trade package. If it was for keeps, I would take Abreu for injury possibilities and because he affects each game, Sale only 1 in 5. I thin you are still pretty happy if you get the 2nd pick.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Aug 4, 2014 -> 05:50 PM) I'm sure not seeing anything like that. It seems like the more hind was sighted, the more opinion changed. I remember one guy who has been against this from day one and that is Oldsox who mentions it with every single blown save. Whateves. The sign that at least the DBacks didn't think too much of Davidson's " middle of the order " bat was when they traded for Trumbo, basically a RH Adam Dunn with fewer walks. Eaton and Skaggs is a high price to pay if you think you already have that power in house. And I definitely mentioned when a lot of people were concerned about his super 2 status, the possibility no one will give a crap about that during the season. Does anyone really think that if no egg would be on his face and Towers offered Reed for Davidson at the trade deadline, Hahn would pass?

QUOTE (Vance Law @ Aug 4, 2014 -> 04:58 PM) This thread blows. You don't spend a ton of money on a bullpen for a rebuilding team. You don't trade away prospects from a rebuilding team to get veteran bullpen arms. Relief pitchers have the most erratic results from year to year of any players. The bullpen as constructed with Jones and Lindstom not getting injured and Belisario and Shields simply pitching similarly to last year and the rest of their careers, the bullpen is just fine. If you are going to blame Rick Hahn for veteran relievers not pitching up to their historical numbers or getting injured then by the same "logic" you also have to credit Hahn for everything Jose Abreu has done. Abreu hasn't hit one home run this year, Hahn hit them. P.S.- Our bullpen is 12th best in the AL. Our starters are also 12th best. Can there be a separate forum on this site just for posters who don't say dumb s***? Fire Cooper

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Aug 4, 2014 -> 03:18 PM) Here are your replies from the trade thread. Maybe I can read into some that you aren't excited about Davidson, but I don't see anything about the loss of Reed, or that he is more valuable than Davidson. There really isn't much of a commitment from you on the trade one way or another. I left out the posts about other things. The first post is in relation to how everyone likes the trade. I really wasn't too familiar the day of the trade. The more I read about Davidson, the more the deal didn't seem very good to me. It isn't hindsight. That's too easy. I didn't like this trade before they reported to spring training.

When should the Sox get the go ahead to build a good bullpen?

QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Aug 4, 2014 -> 02:48 PM) That's just wrong. Reed blew 8 saves in 2013 and the Sox lost 7 of those games. May 5 - Sox lead 5-3, Reed gives up 2-run double to Billy Butler, Sox lose in 10 June 11 - Sox lead 5-4, Reed gives up a HR to Bautista, Sox lose in 10 June 28- Sox lead 8-5, Reed gives up 4 runs including the dagger Swisher HR, Sox lose 9-8 July 31 - Sox score 2 in the 9th to go up 5-3, Reed gives up 2 sac flies, Sox lose in 10 September 7 - Gillaspie breaks a 2-2 tie in the 10th, Reed gives up 3 hits, Sox lose 4-3 September 21 - Sox lead 6-5, Reed walks 4 guys and allows Detroit to tie the game, Sox lose in 12 September 24 - Tank and De Aza hit solo homers in the 9th to give Sox a comeback 4-3 lead, Reed gives up a 2 run bomb to Giambi Yes. I was wrong. I was taking leads into the 9th inning.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Aug 4, 2014 -> 02:28 PM) In hindsight, yes. In hindsight many guys sucked this year. We can't go back and retroactively cut the 10 guys on this team who have underperformed either. But in terms of a building a baseball team, that is a move you make every, single time, no matter what hindsight you apply here. No it's not. They obviously thought Davidson was better than he was. I'm not applying hindsight. I thought Reed was more valuable than Davidson.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Aug 4, 2014 -> 02:19 PM) In the spot where the Sox are, a starting 3B is much more important than a closer. We are taking about one inning 40 to 50 times a year, versus 140-150 games a year. Sure Davidson failed, but unless that closer is the final piece of a playoff team, you make that deal every single day. The White Sox didn't get one of those in the trade.

QUOTE (scs787 @ Aug 4, 2014 -> 02:08 PM) As have his HR/9 rate which is 1.99...And he pitches in a pitcher friendly ballpark. Had to figure sooner or later those FBs catch up with him. If he gave up 1.99 HR/9 here in Chicago people would be bashing the hell out of him.....Esp. those fancy FIP guys. I couldn't imagine how much we'd hear about his 4.44 FIP. USCF is playing as a pitcher's park this season. I think bottom 3rd for HR. He's given up a ton of homers, but the team has lost 3 games he came in for a save, which is right in line with the 4 the Sox lost each season Reed was their closer. The White Sox have lost 6 games they have led in the 9th inning this year.

QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Aug 4, 2014 -> 02:05 PM) OK so your stance is contend every year right ? Hand out big contracts, sign free agents, pay a lot for more established bullpen pieces. So basically spend like a drunken sailor in the Phillipines ? Somehow sign a big TV contract have no injuries, every pot luck signee produces beyond expectations, fans are flocking to the Cell. I can get behind that philosophy only it doesn't work that way with our current owner or being the 2nd most popular team in a 2 team city.. Trade Reinsdorf for Mark Cuban and I'm behind you 100 %. I actually wanted them to keep a $538k pitcher. I don't know what you are on to come up with the other stuff, although I'm sure you are now glad the Sox spent some money on Abreu. And they bid 9 figures on Tanaka. They have plenty of money.

QUOTE (scs787 @ Aug 4, 2014 -> 01:59 PM) Hey DA, I remember you bringing up Tommy Millones FB% as a reason why you don't think he'd be a good trade for the Sox....Why are you a fan of a guy who ranked 9th among ALL relievers in fly balls last year? Because he is in to get 3 outs, not 18, and his strikeout rate is increasing.