Dick Allen

QUOTE (Marty34 @ Jul 27, 2013 -> 01:32 PM) Throughout his career he's been a 60 inning pitcher and as such needs to be handled with great care. They very fact that he landed on the DL with a "tired" shoulder tells you he was overworked. 60 innings a year and averages about a month on the DL. Guess what 60/5=? That is what he averages a month, which is what he is averaging this year. Where was it reported he has a tired shoulder? Give me a link.

QUOTE (fathom @ Jul 27, 2013 -> 09:02 PM) He would have been safe if he tagged up. I agree with you about the play not being an easy decision for him. I was sitting behind the Sox dugout. Rios went halfway down the line and froze. It was very apparen5 if the ball was going to be caught the RF would have to get on the ground.i know a few thousand people were telling him to tag. 3 stupid plays by him the last 2 weeks. Jaking it to first. Getting deeked by the SS and this. He is a talented but dumb player.

QUOTE (SoxPride18 @ Jul 27, 2013 -> 04:47 PM) I'm getting the feeling that nothing is going to happen from now to the deadline. I really doubt the Sox would have sent out that survey if they aren't going to be dropping some guys. Hawk elued to fans understanding if the team decided to play for 2015. It woulld be shocking if nothing happened, but Hahn has to hold oit for the best package. He can't get ansy and settle for something when other teams may offer more as the deadline nears, or another layer or 3 may go down.

QUOTE (ChiSox59 @ Jul 27, 2013 -> 04:31 PM) I am not denying Rios plays with no fire, but I must have missed those comments. He is very talented and a graceful athlete. It could appear he looks like he isn't maximg effor pt when he does, but it's been pretty obvious after a great start, he's pretty much checked out the last 2 months. He's been just another guy in June and July. A guy a team can acquire who carries a far smaller price tag. I really think his comments about being benched hurt his value as well. He knew it was wrong and unacceptable, yet didn't think he had to pay the consequences. The fact is Robin could have embarrassed him far more than he did, and the guy who really embarrassed Rios was Rios.

QUOTE (ChiSox59 @ Jul 27, 2013 -> 04:20 PM) How did he rip Robin? His initial comments were that he should have been hustling. He said Robin handled it wrong and embarrassed him. Robin shouldn't have pulled him, but talked to him about it after the game. Lou Piniella used to say he yanked guys from games who dogged it down the line because he just assumed if they couldn't run hard , they must be hurt. Rios" half efforts drag down his value.

QUOTE (Marty34 @ Jul 27, 2013 -> 01:18 PM) I don't think you understand the game all that much if you a.) don't believe Crain was overworked and b.) if you don't think his being overworked led to him being placed on the DL. He wasn't overworked. If he can't pitch 12 innings a month as a middle reliever, and he makes $4-5 million, you aren't getting anything worthwhile back for him. Look at the gamelogs and explain how he was overworked.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 27, 2013 -> 12:36 PM) A couple of those you've assumed guys stay healthy (Tampa, David Price hasn't been there all year) and you've neglected the NL/AL transition (Cincy, Pittsburgh). The usual rule is subtract something like 0.75-1 from a guy's ERA if they switch leagues, although that might be a bit smaller now that the full interleague schedule has started. In the NL he'd probably be putting up an ERA close to 3.25, maybe even 3 if he was pitching somewhere like San Fran. Keep in mind Peavy pitched 2 games with a broken rib and was hit hard. His ERA for his other starts is right about 3.00 and that is pitching with a terrible defense. I thin Sox fans are really underestimating how good he has actually been this year and last.

QUOTE (Marty34 @ Jul 27, 2013 -> 08:52 AM) Like when they are on the DL. Using that logic, anyone the Sox are thinking about trading needs to be riding pine. They might get hurt. Considering how many you want them to trade, they wouldn't be able to field a team. Just take forfeits until they can I guess. But I am well aware you are just trolling.

QUOTE (Marty34 @ Jul 27, 2013 -> 08:35 AM) When his only value to the team is what he brings back in a trade, yes. Players that don't show they can play have no value. The guy got hurt at a bad time, but to try to place blame on an injury like that is beyond silly. Pitchers get hurt on every team.

QUOTE (Marty34 @ Jul 27, 2013 -> 08:15 AM) What would you consider a heavy workload for Crain? He is a one inning pitcher, so multiple 3 games in a row appearances, he had one but not in June, and lack of a breather after back to backappearances, those would be heavy. June 1 was the backend of him appearing 2 in a row, he got 3 days off after that. He got 4 days off after the next one. 7 days off the one after that, and 5 days off his last one. Are these guys museum pieces that are just there for people to look at?

QUOTE (Marty34 @ Jul 27, 2013 -> 08:10 AM) I'd like to know the reason why Crain was given such a heavy workload. 10.1 innings in April 13.2 innings in May 12.2 innings in June Just abused

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jul 27, 2013 -> 07:35 AM) If you looked at his pitches thrown over the last month before he went to the DL, he had thrown about 100 more than any set-up guy in the Top 20 for holds at that time (right hand, not LH loogy types). He definitely had a huge blip up for about a two or three week span where he had more pitches thrown than anyone in the AL out of the bullpen. The 12 innings pitched per month stat is just an average and not a realistic look at the actuality of his workload this year compared to seasons past. He threw 230 in June. My first look was Tampa and Peralta threw 173 in June. Not quite 100. It is funny, if someone gets hurt, the manager or a coach is an idiot, he shouldn't have played. If the same player doesn't play, people get all upset about that. I pointed out DRose. People wanted Thibs fired for having DRose in a game they thought was clearly decided and he wasn't needed. Later, they are upset Rose isn't playing in games when the team realistically has no shot at a title. The only difference is the second part they weren't blaming on the coach. Crain pitched 12 innings in June. If that is too much, he is worth very little on the trade market. I think if you asked trainers, the 230 pitches over 11 appearances is not all tht relevant as he is only throwing about 20 at a time, not really enough to get all that gassed, which is what I believe causes problems with starters throwing too many pitches. IMO, the danger zone isn't necessarily overall pitch count, it is the individual games. If you are conditioned for 110, throwing 140-150 probably can hurt you. If you are conditioned for 20-25, as long as you are still getting rest, 12 innings in a month,manager abuse isn't the reason your shoulder is sore. Every team suffers from pitcher injuries. It's hard to believe with the success the Sox have had in that area, and knowing Robin goes with the organization's philosophy, how people want to blame him for this. Pitchers get hurt.

QUOTE (JohnCangelosi @ Jul 27, 2013 -> 05:31 AM) Interesting that Juan Uribe is a) still in the league and b) a bit above league average. I'm a big Urine fan. But I suspect his contract is up.

QUOTE (bbilek1 @ Jul 26, 2013 -> 08:04 PM) People had been saying it when he was being overworked, when he got injured and now. Crain was injured in spring training and we know that wasn't from overwork because we have been told the White Sox didn't do anything in spring training but hang out by the pool, while Ventura was working the grill. He also went on the DL last year after pitching 7 innings. JESSE CRAIN AVERAGES 12 INNINGS A MONTH. HIS INJURY HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH OVERWORK.IF 12 INNINGS A MONTH IS OVERWORK, HE ISN'T GOING TO BE WORTH A DECENT PROSPECT ANYWAY.

QUOTE (bbilek1 @ Jul 26, 2013 -> 08:02 PM) Stone's got a fever. It's Mike Huff, Northwestern grad and former OFer in the early 90's. Might I add he is terrible. Drinking game: take a shot for every time Huff says, "Oh my gosh." Anyone else notice in the promos it's "Josh Phegley and the White Sox take on the Royals Sunday." The normal guys might be traded, are already gone or are Paulie. Oh my gosh, you would be dead.

QUOTE (bbilek1 @ Jul 26, 2013 -> 06:46 PM) I agree with you but the conversation I was replying to DA had chose to ignore those injuries. I'm not, but are those injuries from overwork, and why hadn't one person said anything about Crain being overworked until now?

You may want to check Crain's gamelogs before you make outrageous claims of him being overworked.

QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Jul 26, 2013 -> 05:49 PM) In 2012, he was hurt from April 20 to May 16 and June 23 to July 23. That's a third of the season, hardly a far comparison. Was it from overwork?

QUOTE (bbilek1 @ Jul 26, 2013 -> 03:10 PM) I am not sure why all this matters? You seem to be ignoring Jesse was out for two full months last year and a month (so far) this year. Still, he's pitched 36 innings. Its like 12 a month. It's not overwork.

QUOTE (bbilek1 @ Jul 26, 2013 -> 02:48 PM) I hate to say it, but I agree with Marty. Crain was overused and several posters had acknowledged that in those stretches in May and June where not only his appearances and innings were up but his pitches were at crazy levels. Ventura has a certain lack of foresight. Whoever had said RV has a track record is full of it. And after Crain pitched a couple games in a row, there were people complaining in the gamethread when Ventura wasn't using him the next game. It's funny how it works. You are supposed to manage every game like it's the 7th game of the WS and if you don't you are a fool. If you do and guys get tired or get hurt, you are a fool. Fans for the most part are not very realistic. Since Ventura has been the manager, Crain has pitched 75 innings. 36 this year. If that's overwork, and Ventura is to be blamed for his injury, the Sox better be asking for pitchers for all their guys. They will need about 40-50 to get through a season. And just so you know, all the innings at "crazy levels" in reality, 285 pitchers have pitched more innings than Jesse Crain this season.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 26, 2013 -> 11:57 AM) It hasn't been "Debunked". You pointed to one article on them working on fundamentals the last day of ST. Whatever they did...IT DIDN'T WORK. So yes, I blame the players making mental errors on the manager, just like I gave last year's manager credit for how focused the team was. If Robin Ventura isn't to blame for the complete collapse of the player's fundamentals, focus, and mental performance on the field, fine, then we're at the "There's no reason to retain him because he really doesn't do anything positive or negative so why does anyone care" point? Take Alex Rios. He dogged his way out of Toronto. He dogged it and Ozzie benched him. He dogged it and Ventura benched him. I guess that means the problem is with the 3 managers. It's their job to get Alex to hustle, correct?

This is genius marketing. The Sox are about to make changes. They know fully well this team is not well liked, and they certainly aren't going to ask for opinions on how to shape the roster. But they send this out and a lot of fans will actually think they are making moves because they told them to do so.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 26, 2013 -> 11:57 AM) It hasn't been "Debunked". You pointed to one article on them working on fundamentals the last day of ST. Whatever they did...IT DIDN'T WORK. So yes, I blame the players making mental errors on the manager, just like I gave last year's manager credit for how focused the team was. If Robin Ventura isn't to blame for the complete collapse of the player's fundamentals, focus, and mental performance on the field, fine, then we're at the "There's no reason to retain him because he really doesn't do anything positive or negative so why does anyone care" point? Hawk mentioned it, said they worked on it "a ton", even more than last year. Hahn mentioned it. Ventura mentioned it just yesterday or the day before, said it was just one of those things that snowballed. I know we live in an era where everything you do wrong is pinned on someone else, but the problem is, if you don't actually change the real cause of the problem (players) you really won't solve the problem. The Sox offense is horrid. Is that Manto's fault?

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 26, 2013 -> 11:38 AM) I'd be thrilled with Ventura's quiet demeanor if it seemed like it was having a positive impact on the players. It is and it has. You blame players making errors on the manager. You also claim they took it easy during spring training. That has been debunked. They spent just as much time doing the same drills they did last year. It just all fell apart. Blaming that on the manager is crazy. I will bet 100% of the people who blame Ventura when the players screw up, if they are managers in their line of work, would never understand taking the fall if one of their underlings screwed up.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 26, 2013 -> 11:17 AM) I don't need a guy to be loud if his people play solid baseball. Of course not, but when people criticize Ventura for his quiet demeanor, and then mention Dave Martinez as their choice to take his place, it would be nice if they realized he is more quiet than Robin.