Dick Allen

Baseball salaries are ridiculous. Alex Rios will be paid more this year than Carlton Fisk made his entire 24 year career.

Clarence Clemons RIP.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 18, 2011 -> 04:50 PM) By 4 years from now? I'd expect that'd be pretty much standard for an all-star player, if that's what DV is. Like I said...it's whether you're "all in" this year or not. if we're actually All In, then what the manager wants shouldn't be stopping the team from making moves that win games. If we're instead all in on Ozzie Guillen, then give Ozzie the rope to hang himself and save Viciedo for a couple years from now when the rebuilding process is nearly finished. So you're saying the rebuilding process would only take a couple of years?

QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Jun 18, 2011 -> 04:34 PM) When did I ever say that KW & Ozzie should keep their job because of 2005? When did I ever say that they have done a good job in the past few years? Never. I agree with everything you say in this post. I just disagree with you playing the "what if" game with 2005, acting like they never should have won because of one or two random lucky plays. That was a good team that was more than deserving to win the WS. KW made some great moves and Oz put his team in a position to win. That was then, & this is now, and their jobs are rightfully in question because of the team's recent performance. Their recent struggles shouldn't change the perception of what that team did in 2005 though. When did I say they never should have won? I just pointed out the fine line between winning and losing. Was Bob Brenly a genius because the DBacks got to Mariano Rivera? Was John Hart not as good of a GM because Jose Mesa wet his pants? The thing is the only real argument anyone has as to what kind of a job KW and Ozzie do except for mediocre, is 2005. If that year didn't happen or they did lose in the playoffs, 99% of White Sox fans would want them gone right now. I still maintain the playoffs are a crapshoot. Get in them, hopefully with some season to spare so you can align your rotation, and give yourself a chance. Both have huge egos and believe they are the reason the Sox won that year. I pointed this out years ago, but I used to go to Soxfest and go to the talks. When KW and Ozzie shared a stage it was hysterical when fans would go up to the microphone and thank one for the WS title. The other became so uncomfortable it almost seemed like they wanted to scream, "what about me?".

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 18, 2011 -> 04:33 PM) If you buy him another year pre-arbitration year, then that pushes back his big payday by a full year, gets you another year at that $2.5 million, keeps him here for an extra year, and pushes back each arb year. Basically, here's your question. If you want the White Sox to totally rebuild and look maybe 3+ years down the road, then you want Viciedo in Charlotte until rosters expand so that he makes that Super 2 deadline, because it makes the Sox roster cheaper and better in 3 years. That money and arb-status will actually be big then, even if it looks small now. If you want the Sox to go all in this year to try to save Ozzie Guillen's job, then you want Viciedo up and playing every day right now. Exactly how many guys get $10 million their first year of arbitration? The Sox still get the same amount of years of control with Viciedo, its a question of one of those years being arb eligible vs. not being eligible. Its either 3 or 4. Ozzie isn't going anywhere. You know it, I know it, we all know it. The object is to try to win. They are only 5.5 out with 90 to play. As I stated before, if Ozzie wants to play with his toys too much for KW's liking, its time the GM take those toys away and make him play with better toys. If, and I think you're a little off, the extra arb year is going to be $10 million more expensive for the White Sox, then Viciedo is going to be an MVP quality performer and some wins, maybe some playoff games, will all offset that finanicial number over the next couple of years.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jun 18, 2011 -> 03:59 PM) You do remember what the Sox looked like after the White Flag trade right? Prospects don't matter to the general Sox fan. They don't care about next year if there is a 75 win team on the field. For the Sox the difference between 75 and 85 win expectations are HUGE historically. Exactly, White Sox fans and prospects don't mix well. Beckham is a prospect, but everyone wants instant gratification or they say he's garbage, he'll never be anything. Robin Ventura is loved around here. I wonder what Soxtalk would have thought of him his rookie year. He was pretty brutal. As much as many want to embrace it, if a rebuild ever happens, many clamouring for it now will be miserable. You do need to have something in the minor leagues because guys aren't going to perform or get hurt, but there certainly is no guarantee if you decide to totally rebuild your team that it will not be a very long process and may never get done. Pittsburgh and KC and Baltimore were once crown jewel franchises.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 18, 2011 -> 04:13 PM) ? It might well save $10-15 million if he's as good as we hope he is. Not really. He's signed next year for $2.5 million. Its the only difference is one year the Sox can renew or they given him arb. Its probably a $2 million difference considering he's going to be eligible for arb anyway eventually. His contract stated that in 2012 if he was eligible for arbitration the $2.5 million became a $3.5 million team option. And if he's as good as we hope, he will help the team win this year and make more than enough money to cover the difference. And if you're baseball decisions are based on arbitration a year or two from now, you should look for a job with the Pirates.

On the flipside, the Sox are paying Viciedo $1.25 million to play in Charlotte. It would seem silly they would pay him to not play in Chicago in hopes it will save them money in a couple of years.

QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Jun 18, 2011 -> 03:17 PM) They didn't score a run, but they also had the lead so they didn't need to. Maybe if they were trailing, they would have been more agressive and they would have scored more runs. How do you know they wouldn't? What if? But KW did keep him on the roster and Ozzie trusted him in that situation and he came through. He didn't pitch well during the season as a starter, but in a couple relief appearances he was scoreless, just like in Game 3. Sorry that you are disappointed the Sox won the Boston series, you obviously believe they weren't deserving. Actually, probably no one was more thrilled the correct color of Sox won that series than me. Its too bad winning a WS clouds your judgement about the job performance of KW and OG since. The team still tries to sell a championship tradition, but they still have only won one the past 94 years. Its also the only time they have won a postseason series in 94 years. All the momentum they had in turning Chicago into a White Sox town has fallen by the wayside. There used to be a waiting list for season tickets. Now season ticketholders of which I am one, can't give their tickets away. Just keep one thing in mind, if its because of Ozzie and KW the team plays well and wins a WS, its only fair its because of Ozzie and KW guys like Pierre and Rios and Dunn have totally sucked. I think its something more in the middle, but their absolute refusal to be almost halfway through a season and really not do anything about the struggles this team has had, when the ad campaign is "all in" indicates to me the shelf life on an 11 year GM and an 8 year manager should be expiring pretty soon.

QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Jun 18, 2011 -> 02:29 PM) If the error doesn't happen, then they are down 4-2 in the 6th inning, but the inning starts off Iguchi/Dye/PK, instead of PK/Everett/Rowand. Maybe they start a rally and the Sox win the game anyway, it would have played out a bit differently. The play was in the 5th inning, not the bottom of the 9th. El Duque was a veteran with all kinds of big game playoff experience with the Yankees who stepped up when needed. It's not unheard of for a player to step up in a position like that. Considering the Sox didn't score another run after the Iguchi homer, odds are they would have lost the game. As for El Duque, KW had to be talked into even having him on the postseason roster, and he could have pitched well and a couple of runs could have scored in that situation.

QUOTE (ChrisLikesBaseball @ Jun 18, 2011 -> 11:44 AM) If someone would do the leg-work and weight each season based on championships/division titles/playoff wins/regular season wins per dollar spent on payroll, I'd be inclined to look at where KW stands against other GMs. I didn't know someone from the ownership group posted here. :lolhitting Come on... that team was in first place from beginning of April to the end of October. They went 11-1 in the playoffs. How can you justify boiling it down to one inning in the divisional round of the playoffs when they were up 2-0 in the series?! If a ball Graffinino makes the play on 999 times out of 1000 doesn't go through his legs and Iguchi homers the next hitter, the series is 1-1. If El Duque pitches like El Duque pitched the second half of 2005, the Sox would then be down 2-1 with Schilling raring to pitch. Take nothing away from that team, the were the World Champions and definitely earned it. I'm just pointing out however, even with the dominate numbers, they were very close to being in a very big bind, but since that didn't happen and they did win, KW and Ozzie are baseball geniuses who can do no wrong it a lot of peoples' eyes. Every team that wins a WS gets lucky. I just want the stubborness to stop. There is no reason to play Pierre and Rios everyday unless you are just trying to prove a point. Ozzie needs to win games. He'll look a lot smarter sitting the guys who aren't getting it done and playing guys who have been productive.

QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Jun 18, 2011 -> 08:38 AM) To be clear, I'm not defending what they have done the last few seasons and am not trying to save their present day jobs. Yes, I am defending the fact that in 2005 KW got the horses and Ozzie led them to a 99-win season and 11-1 playoff run. To try and cheapen that because of one or two lucky breaks, which every champion tends to get, is funny to me. It's not like those moments were even in elimination games. Again, I'm not cheapening it at all, just mentioning the very fine line between being like Mike Ditka where you can do no wrong because you took one of the best teams of all time to the Super Bowl. or Lovie Smith, a guy a good percentage of Bears fans think doesn't deserve his job even though he took a team QB'd by Rex Grossman to the Super Bowl. Living off 2005 needs to stop. Ozzie believes it should go on forever. For many it will. If the Sox come back and win 85 games this year and finish in 2nd place, I'm not going to be one of the guys who thinks of it as a successful season. Its been brutal. I don't think expecting them to make the playoffs as often as the Yankees and Boston is fair, but they do have and have had in the past and advantage over their division opponents. Back in the 70s and 80s and 90s, making the playoffs once every 5 years was a lot bigger accomplishment than it is now especially considering the Central Division.

QUOTE (JohnCangelosi @ Jun 18, 2011 -> 06:53 AM) This is our winning lineup this year in my opinion but with Lillibridge at 3B and Dayan in the outfield. I know, I know, I know Lillipad hasn't ever played 3B, but then again, he rarely played the outfield before this year as well and look at what he's done. I'm sure he's capable of being decent over there. Of course it will never happen. I'm so sick of this team, this organization, this manager, this GM, they are a joke. f*** you Ozzie and your love for one of the worst players in the game. Sure, we need to play Rios and Dunn because of the contracts and their talent level but it is so CLEAR that JP is done, it's sickening. And yet you heard him tonight. We will only get more. Mark Kotsay anyone? The exact same stubborness that made us watch Erstad, and Wise and Kotsay is what is making us watch Rios and Pierre right now. Its ironic both Rios and Pierre have scored the same amount of runs and have driven in the same amount of runs. Ozzie should be embarrassed penciling them in the line up when he has alternatives.

QUOTE (kitekrazy @ Jun 18, 2011 -> 01:01 AM) Veeck new he could never win in the free agent game so he decided to put his money in development. This is where changes need to be made but I wouldn't be surprised this organization will be stuck with waisting money on hit and miss free agents because of their hit and miss drafting and development. Veeck didn't put money anywhere except his pocket when he sold the team.

QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Jun 18, 2011 -> 12:43 AM) You do say that. Then you immediately move on to say, BUT if this or that doesn't happen, then they aren't champions and no one cares about them. You give them the right to hang their hat, then with the next line you question how lucky they were to win that title. That's my beef. Every championship team has to get lucky occasionally, it happens. b**** about the last 6 years, b**** about the Twins, b**** about the Hudson trade, but don't say their 99 win team in 2005 got lucky because of one or two plays. So you're saying the second part isn't true? All I'm say is if they didn't get the breaks then, I guarantee you wouldn't be defending either right now. KW had nothing to do with either, at least Ozzie had something to do with El Duque being in the game, although if it didn't work out, he would have been called nuts.

QUOTE (BigEdWalsh @ Jun 17, 2011 -> 11:28 PM) If only we can reverse that. Actually doesn't shock me. I never have the feeling the Sox can come back when they're trailing. Obviously, the record trailing after 6 innings isn't ever going to look very pretty, but almost halfway through the season only 3 wins when trailing with 3 innings to go..........................brutal.

Wow, the Sox are 3-29 when trailing after 6 innings.

QUOTE (The Ginger Kid @ Jun 17, 2011 -> 11:18 PM) Fine start, Mr. Hudson. Wish you were still on the good side. He probably would have lost 2-1 if he was a White Sox tonight. For the love of God KW, gas up JR's jet and get Viciedo to Phoenix. Put Lillibride in CF and tell Pierre and Rios to ride pine.

Alex Rios and Juan Pierre have each scored and driven in the same amount of runs this year.

QUOTE (fathom @ Jun 17, 2011 -> 11:10 PM) I'm actually really happy that we can look forward to watching Viciedo at least next year. Should be entertaining and he has a chance to be a fan favorite. Unless Ozzie has some excuse why he can't use a guy who apparently can hit. There is really no reason he isn't playing every day for the Sox right now. The reason he's not is the same reason we had to watch Erstad and Owens and Wise leading off. Although, if KW doesn't want to take away Ozzie's toys and make him play with his toys, its on KW.

QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Jun 17, 2011 -> 11:01 PM) I love how everyone demands excellence & championships, yet disregards 2005 as a lucky fluke and won't give OG/KW any credit. If you wanna argue that 2005 was 6 years ago and they have underacheived since then, that is fine, I completely understand and your arguments are warranted. But they did make all the right moves to win a title back in the day, and don't take that credit away just cause you hate them now. Read the first sentence of what you are replying to, then pop off. I said they have every right to hang their hat on the championship.

QUOTE (winninguglyin83 @ Jun 17, 2011 -> 11:04 PM) career .248 hitter. saying he ever 'hit' is a stretch. he's got 3 1/2 years to turn it around. No rush. Batting average isn't his game. Homers and walks are what he does.

QUOTE (kapzk @ Jun 17, 2011 -> 11:05 PM) any chances of placing Rios on waivers in July and a team claiming? The being placed on waivers is a given, the claim, there's no chance. Zero. Even if he showed some signs of life the next few weeks. He's trash and every other team knows it.

QUOTE (The Ginger Kid @ Jun 17, 2011 -> 10:57 PM) Have a GM and/or manager ever gotten so much mileage out of a WS appearance/win? Ozzie mentioned the WS win in his rant a week or so ago. He believes he deserves a lifetime pass.

QUOTE (winninguglyin83 @ Jun 17, 2011 -> 11:00 PM) Guy ain't in shape, saw his on-base percentage go down 42 points last year and can't play in the field Reds fans haven't stopped laughing since the day the Sox signed him. He's no more out of shape than he has been the last 6 or 7 years. He just hasn't hit.