Dick Allen

QUOTE (Buehrlesque @ Dec 14, 2016 -> 01:15 PM) As an aside, I get a kick out of how over-intellectualized the concept of "posturing" is. If unconnected fans on message boards can read through the BS and detect something as "posturing," how seriously would actual MLB executives ever take any of it? They all do it and probably assume most of it is BS, but keep in the back of their minds there may be something to it. I would really doubt in this case the Sox would trade Q without getting back to Houston to see if they may budge. When they went over the Sale trade, Hahn did tell DD Sale was getting traded at the Winter Meetings. It wasn't going to drag on. If he did the same and said Q is getting traded by the end of the week, the best offers would soon follow. Right now, Hahn doesn't need to be in a rush. Maybe some more serious suitors can emerge. With Sale and then Eaton, I'm almost thinking Hahn made sure they were done because he wanted this rebuild and trading them meant no turning back.

QUOTE (Jenksy Cat @ Dec 14, 2016 -> 01:07 PM) Yes, lose all the games. I don't understand anyone who argues against that. If you're nowhere near a wild card, lose all of em. I argue with Cubs fan friends about it and ask: would you rather have had 4 more wins in 2012 or Kris Bryant? If they lost all the games, they might have wound up with Mark Appel instead of Kris Bryant. It goes both ways.

QUOTE (CanOfCorn @ Dec 14, 2016 -> 01:00 PM) Depends how bad the Astros want him. Sox can just walk away and say, bidding is open or we're keeping him. Until they are actually playing a team off another or a couple, there is no reason for anyone to crack. Washington supposedly upped their Sale offer after they realized their take it or leave it offer wasn't going to be enough. It still wasn't enough. Until Lunhow realizes he is about to lose out or until Hahn realizes he won't get a better offer, there is no reason to budge unless the plan B,C, and Ds are coming off the board. And that is to the White Sox advantage. The contenders need a TOR starter a lot more than the Sox have to get rid of Q in the next several months.

There is going to be an explosion of action fairly soon. There are a lot of teams that have done next to nothing yet.

I would have zero interest attending, watching on TV, or listening on the radio to a White Sox game if I didn't want them to win. I get the concept, but people have been cheering for the Bulls, Bears and Sox to lose for years. It gets old. Too gung ho about losses. If it leads to Sean Beer and he's a superstar, and leads the White Sox to the playoffs every year, you can all tell me you got me. But there seems to be a pretty big competition to see who can be the worst team in baseball these days.

QUOTE (JUSTgottaBELIEVE @ Dec 14, 2016 -> 10:33 AM) How do we know that? The front office has already stated they aren't moving those guys unless they get full value in return (in their eyes). Why are we certain that they will receive a satisfactory return this offseason? They are going to go. The Sox lost Sale and Eaton and their replacements as of now are Holland and Liriano. They suck right now and will get worse shortly.

So how does this work? There is another thread that pretty much states we should cheer for losses and the team to suck for the draft pick. So should we cheer for Holland to suck or be a Cy Young candidate? Seems to me, the #1 overall pick is worth more than some measly prospect a team may give you for 2 months of Derek Holland's services.

QUOTE (soxfan2014 @ Dec 14, 2016 -> 10:18 AM) Yeah. We should still be in the top ten pick range, but teams like Reds, Brewers, Phillies, Braves, Padres, A's are still worse than us. There's a lot of really bad teams in MLB these days. A lot more with zero shot of being good than I can remember. Plus some teams we think can be good won't be.

I understand the concept, fully on board with it, but a guy who would probably struggle at the White Sox home park if all went well due to his style, would be a curious signing, and one that doesn't seem like it would net a useful prospect 3 months into the season.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Dec 14, 2016 -> 09:38 AM) They seem to have zero regard for the future roster in these deals, and everything about how they are ranked. I agree with you. They are either admitting many of these guys are going to bust or kidding themselves they or other pitchers will be traded for frontline hitting. That has been the strategy since Schueler was the GM, and they rarely ever trade for a hitter who actually hits. It's happened. Quentin, Eaton. But the list is short, and they need hitters in 2 or 3 years close to everywhere. It's also one of the reasons I always stood up for Greg Walker. Coop, Coop, Coop could do no wrong, but if you really examine it, they give him a lot more to work with. It's not like Todd Steverson has 4 new guys the GM said are middle of the order guys. He did say they have 4 that are top of the rotation guys.

QUOTE (steveno89 @ Dec 14, 2016 -> 09:13 AM) Sox should not reduce the price for Quintana as he is pretty much the only quality pitching option on the market right now. With Houston not offering Bregman, a deal with them lacks a true elite prospect (like Moncada). Martes/Tucker is a starting point, but I don't feel that a deal is close without significantly more coming to the Sox Reed/Stubbs/Perez/Laureano/Whitley/Hernandez are all players of interest that could potentially round out a trade If Gammons quote is accurate and the Sox were willing to trade for a Tucker/Martes/Musgrove package, you have to think eventually something will get done with Houston. They are 100% analytics, so Q, who probably is the Ben Zobrist of pitching sabermetrically, is one of the best pitchers in baseball to them, signed cheaply for 4 years with a couple of outs in case something horrible happens. I think there will be a 4 or 5 prospect trade for him myself. All of the other dancing IMO is just for show.

QUOTE (GreenSox @ Dec 14, 2016 -> 09:15 AM) I think the idea is that the player would be a FA (such as when you don't offer an arb eligible player) and would sign back with the club that released him. There would be no need to DFA him. I do think if some team did this with a pre-agreed second contract, there would be hell to pay. Probably like when the Red Sox juiced the system in LA. Instant free agent, loss of pool money etc. to the team.

QUOTE (GreenSox @ Dec 14, 2016 -> 08:52 AM) Isn't the idea that teams will use some loophole - sign him for a modest amount, agree to DFA him after 1 year (or whatever it's called when you let a player go early in career, and he agrees to sign back for some predetermined massive amount? He'd never clear waivers. I think the whole it has nothing to do with money talk will eventually have everything to do with money so if they don't alter the CBA, he will wait the 3 years.

QUOTE (soxfan2014 @ Dec 13, 2016 -> 06:05 PM) The signing period would be what, July 2017-June 2018? So yeah, you couldn't sign anyone really next summer. Maybe the Sox can use this to their advantage in Latin America. If the big boys sit out Latin America for the their shot, trade for some more bonus money, and with all of the teams that cannot sign guys over $300k, you have a shot at a huge haul.

QUOTE (Con te Giolito @ Dec 13, 2016 -> 05:04 PM) Honestly, I dont know why he isn't waiting until 2019 when he can get $200m having never pitched an MLB inning. But if cannot wait that long he sure as hell isn't going to wait another year just because he really likes the Dodgers or Cubs. My honest guess is this is a negotiating ploy with MLB to try and get them to let him over as an exception and that he wont actually post unless an exception is made. In that case the ideal world for the White Sox is an exception being made for Otani, but the allotment penalties still being enforced in regards to his bidding war. The Sox committed payroll for 2019 is almost nothing, they really could make a play for him next offseason if they're allowed spend. Yes but my question is if teams want to max him if he gets posted a year from now, do they have to not sign anyone the summer of 2017? That seems like a huge risk for any team.

I am pretty sure at the end it was down to the White Sox and Tigers and the Tigers won out. KW made his comment of the trade putting them in a better position to compete with the White Sox. The Sox did win the division that season, but that would have been a franchise changer. Edit I read the Angels were in it until the end for Ervin Santana and Joe Saunders. But as crazy as it sounds, it may have been a blessing they didn't make the trade because the wound up trading for Texiera who left as a free agent and with the comp pick for him they drafted Trout.

QUOTE (Con te Giolito @ Dec 13, 2016 -> 04:50 PM) Cubs, Dodgers, Giants, Royals, Athletics, Astros, Braves, Cardinals, Nationals, Padres, and Reds are all in the penalty. Cant sign a player for more than $300K. You'd figure he'd want more than that right? And if he's willing to wait until July 6 2018 for those teams to jump back into the mix he may as well wait another year and a half to be completely exempted and get his massive contract the old fashioned way. Still competing against Boston and New York at least though, not to mention everyone else in baseball throwing their hats into the ring. Definite longshot and hopefully Sox will have an idea of what their chances are by July this year. So how does that work? When does the July 2nd pool money reset? If this guy is posted in December 2017, does that mean they couldn't sign anyone next summer to max out or the following summer? I just don't understand why he wouldn't wait.

QUOTE (bmags @ Dec 13, 2016 -> 04:45 PM) I have a hard time believing we were ever actually close for Cabrera. Our rumored deal was sooooooooo much worse than Detroits. I think Marlins just used us, and Kenny was more than happy to act like he landed a big fish (PUN INTENDED!) Here is an article on the Cabrera offers at the time. Except for the Dodgers, the Fish had no chance to win the trade. The White Sox supposed offer ultimately woulld have been one of the better ones. Scary trading stars. http://www.sbnation.com/2012/10/26/3559302...de-world-series

QUOTE (Joshua Strong @ Dec 13, 2016 -> 04:21 PM) Would you rather sign Otani and no LA players, thus hurting your presence in LA? Or would you not sign Otani and sign LA players to keep your LA presence strong? It would be just for a year. Teams can't horde players there anymore. The Sox thought with the interest in Japan, giving Tanaka $100 million would have more than paid for itself. With the new rules, whoever gets Otani is going to improve their team and make a ton of money. If he somehow signed with a middle market or small market team, it really would be franchise altering.

QUOTE (Con te Giolito @ Dec 13, 2016 -> 03:44 PM) Well they are literally bound by the CBA (Sox are too) to how much they can sign him. Money is really not an object in the Otani negotiations if he comes over in the next 3 offseasons. MLB will be extremely wary of him signing a quick extension too. He'll have to wait until at least his arb years, and it'll have to be merited. Even then the league may have problems with it. There's really no circumventing the allotment. It'll be a strange saga to say the least. He'll just go wherever he feels like the best. Though "fixing" Giolito, having Rodon go off and seeing the other arms in the system make big strides would sure be a nice selling point for the White Sox. The problem is if the money is the same, the White Sox have the same problem as about 25 other teams, Yankees, Boston, Dodgers, Cubs are where it seems 99% of international players want to play if they could choose their teams.

QUOTE (knightni @ Dec 13, 2016 -> 03:36 PM) So, you'd have a pinch hitter a couple of times. Not ideal. I am all for the Sox getting him, but is there really any chance? Yankees, Boston will be able to sign him, and he will make Sale and Q seem pricey. The $20 million max posting fee won't scare anyone either.

QUOTE (Con te Giolito @ Dec 12, 2016 -> 12:46 PM) If anything the AL may be a better landing spot for him because his bat can play DH on off-days. Or maybe the NL is better because of double switches and pinch hitting. Or maybe Otani cant pinch hit. Or maybe he cant hit at all and this two-way player nonsense is just the same "mysterious talent from the orient with an historic, one-of-a-kind gamebreaking skill" myth that the gyroball was. The issue isn't money, they most he can make from the Sox is $4.75m (and Sox will not be players at all in LatAm for a year). Most he can get from anybody is $5.75m from the small market teams. So he'll go where he just wants to go. The problem with letting him hit when he pitches, is once he comes out, you don't have a DH.

QUOTE (bmags @ Dec 13, 2016 -> 03:15 PM) Should there be any reason why the Winter Meetings matter? No. Is it an artificial deadline that does in fact spur movement? Of course it does. EE right now is SO similar to Cespedes/Gordon last year. We all think his value is cratering, it will continue to drag out, then all the sudden there will be a bidding war as a team splurges to make him their last piece. But Quintana shouldn't really be waiting on a market. Nor should Robertson. I'm interested to see what happens there, I expect it before Christmas but it feels SO LONG since we've had our last activity but in fact it was less than a week ago. Hahn called DD and said he was trading Sale at the Winter Meetings, so basically he was ending the auction and all of the posturing. If he didn't do that, who knows, Sale and Eaton probably aren't yet traded, and the Winter Meetings are a total bust. Think how many teams have done next to nothing this offseason. It is pretty incredible. I thought things would be crazy this week with the holidays coming up. Still a chance, but not looking good

QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Dec 13, 2016 -> 03:03 PM) Pretty stale. That said, everything got a later start. I think you do have some more deadlines as we approach the holidays though, as front offices tend to do a bit of a slow down for family type matters which again, creates some urgency / artificial deadlines to wrap things up. The pace of moves have been about the slowest I can ever remember and post winter meetings, it isn't unusual for a bit of a slowdown as teams regroup, but when I factor in the overall context of so few moves (and the poor FA class), it is interesting that we haven't seen a bit more pace this week. I do expect next week to be a very busy week. Kevin Millar is pretty much the resident goofball at MLBN but when he wants to get serious, he is interesting. He was talking about his free agency, first when he signed with Boston, and then when he signed with Baltimore. He said everything was OK when he hadn't signed by the holidays, but once the new year started panic starts setting in. He wound up signing in February, and was pretty nervous he wasn't going to have a home. I think when he signed with Boston he actually was close to going to Japan.

QUOTE (bmags @ Dec 13, 2016 -> 03:00 PM) It was last friday, just after the meetings. The worst part about the Winter Meetings ending every year is there are no more deadlines. Remember that the Cespedes saga lasted for WEEKS, and Alex Gordon hadn't signed for another 3 weeks from now. I have read with texting and email and cellphones, the Winter Meetings are more show that substance as far as trade talk. It is needed for the job fair, and other things,but modern technology has made them obsolete for trades and signings, although it seems some things actually happen there. If Hahn didn't trade Sale and Eaton, this years Meetings would have been a bore for everyone.