Dick Allen

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jul 28, 2015 -> 02:03 PM) How's that? You really don't think they are capable of taking the $100 million they were going to have to spend on Alex Gordon and investing it in their pitching staff, which is basically the same thing they did coming into this season....spreading the James Shields/Aoki money around to Morales, Chris Young, Alex Rios, Joe Blanton, Hochevar and Kris Medlen? They'll need to add another starting pitcher before next season, but they still have Kyle Zimmer and Medlen as options, just to name two. They're selling out quite a few of their games and have the best tv ratings of any team in their regional market. With Volquez, Duffy, Ventura and some filler for the 4-5 spots (Guthrie/Blanton/Young/Vargas), they're sitting in a decent position. Certainly they'll add another starter next off-season, although it probably won't be Price or Cueto (but you never know). Most importantly, they still have that all in their primes core of cost-controlled Lorenzo Cain, Moustakas, Escobar, Hosmer and Sal Perez. In all likelihood, Mondesi, Jr., replaces Infante, but he's not ready yet. They still have the best bullpen. With Gordon out and Mondesi, Jr., not ready, they made the most logical move/s to give them the best possible chance to get back to the World Series again this year, without precluding them from competing for at least the next two, if not three seasons. Oh, the TV ratings. They gave up 5 arms in 2 KW moves, Finnegan, a guy you said was one of the greatest prospects in the game, and a top 60 prospect for rentals. History has shown deadline acquistions rarely determine the WS outcome, so trading 5 prospects and burning out your bullpen isn't a recipe for sustained success. If the Royals can't re-sign Gordon, they won't be able to get Cueto or Zobrist. This is their shot. If they blow it, it will be back to the drawing board.

QUOTE (ChiSox59 @ Jul 28, 2015 -> 01:39 PM) This. Lots of people undervaluing Quintana around these parts. Donaldson has been about a 6.5-7.0 WAR player now for 3 seasons, and he makes little now. While I think Q is under appreciated he isn't as valuable as Donaldson.

QUOTE (RockRaines @ Jul 28, 2015 -> 01:53 PM) ha, no. Q's age and performance is right there. I don't think there is any question Donaldson is more valuable, but he is about to make some money which would even it out a bit. But no way TOR would do a Donaldson/Q straight up trade even if they were not in contention.

Hasn't history shown that deadline deals rarely pay off? KC did get Cueto and Zobrist, probably about as good as they can do, at the cost of 5 arms. If they don't win the WS, they pretty much shot their wad.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jul 28, 2015 -> 01:18 PM) That's a big difference from what you see in Oakland with Beane having Zaidi (now Forst) as his side kick, different than Theo and Jed on the North Side and different than Jon Daniels and Preller before Preller left, Friedman and Zaidi in LA, LaRussa and Stewart in Arizona, and on and on and on. So these are all examples of what you want the White Sox front office to be, or not? Try to be clear. You never quite spell things out clearly, but make intimations and suggestions and throw out things but it SEEMED you were using the above combinations as "positive" and not negative examples of successful front office partnerships? How is LaRussa and Stewart such an example? That's more like KW and Buddy Bell than anything. Not sure what the DBacks have ever done recently to merit much praise as an organization. Hinch was included as an example of someone the DBacks kicked out of the organization who is the quintessential modern day baseball exec/manager with high level analytical abilities but the modern day touch with players. Basically, the best of Tony LaRussa without the pricky personality, egomania and drunk driving. Hinch was 84-123 in a year and a half as the DBacks manager. Kirk Gibson, as old school as can be, took his place and they won 94 games the next season.

QUOTE (gatnom @ Jul 28, 2015 -> 01:06 PM) So, do people still feel like Samardzija gets traded at this point? It feels like they're just going to stand pat to me. I doubt it will be today. Maybe tomorrow, but if they keep winning....They can always trade him in August. No, he won't clear waivers, but he will clear the teams that have no shot, and then maybe someone gives you something better than the comp pick. But if the Sox win the next 3 or 2 out of 3...right now they are 1.5 games behind Toronto, tied in the loss column. They don't need crazy scenerios to occur other than winning games and Minnesota losing to have a really good shot. They are pretty much equal with the rest of the competition when it comes to games lost.

QUOTE (raBBit @ Jul 28, 2015 -> 12:44 PM) So you have Hahn and Haber, both analytics guys, who aren't homegrown. Not sure how you can have a connection with the team prior to working in baseball... Brooks Boyer's previous employer is... Jerry Reinsdorf. So you have Marco Paddy and Buddy Bell. Then the rest of the organization is mostly made up of guys who played for the Sox or went to a very impressive college. I am not sure you have much of an argument here. The Sox aren't unique in that way. People hire who they know.

The only reason to trade Q is for an established hitter. Since he is a cheap stud pitcher, the Sox don't need that. They don't need prospects where you hope one turns into something close to Q. If they trade him, they need to get back someone who hits in the major leagues, and will for a while. Otherwise, it's just trading to trade, and you will almost certainly become worse off.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jul 28, 2015 -> 11:59 AM) And Rabbit has been 100% right with all of his predictions, LOL. Should I bump the thread where I predicted Hector Santiago to be a future stud/starter after his first relief outing with the White Sox? If there had been a Cy Young vote in April, Simon and Greene both would have been up there. I thought you were a big advanced stats guy? Santiago's FIP,xFIP, and SIERRA don't peg him as much of a stud.

QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Jul 28, 2015 -> 12:49 PM) I don't think the Blue Jays have the ammo for Q after the Tulo deal Not unless they want to give up Donaldson. Throw in Alexei, move Saladino to SS. Crazy talk for sure, but there has to be some reason they traded for Tulo. They must be planning on giving up a bat here soon.

QUOTE (bmags @ Jul 28, 2015 -> 10:57 AM) Reyes is an absolute BUTCHER at SS at this point in his career. No thanks. He definitely was against the White Sox, but his season totals aren't that bad. Tulo is only a 1.5 WAR guy so far this year. This is going to turn out really great for TOR or really bad.

QUOTE (GreenSox @ Jul 28, 2015 -> 10:51 AM) True, but that money pick up was muted by sending Reyes, who, with his salary (around the same as Tulo's although for fewer years), had negative value. This was a steal for Toronto I think. Rodon >>>>>>> than Hoffman for goodness sakes. It's an extra $50 million, plus a $2 million trade kicker, plus the trade then triggers a full no trade clause. The White Sox don't have a $20 million guy on the payroll to offset it like Toronto did, and at the same position.

Do some really think the return for 2 months of Samardjiza is going to reshape the future of the franchise vs. taking the comp pick?

QUOTE (oneofthemikes @ Jul 28, 2015 -> 10:34 AM) Since the All Star break the Sox are 5-0 against bad teams (CLE & BOS) and 1-5 against good teams (KC & STL). 18 of the next 28 games are against good, playoff contending teams and to realistically have a shot at the playoffs, they would need to play ~.600 ball the rest of the season. I can't fathom why they are even contemplating being buyers at this point. Baltimore, Cubs, Toronto, Houston...they beat those teams as well. Explain.

QUOTE (Dunt @ Jul 28, 2015 -> 10:17 AM) You believe they would take it based on what? Potential.

QUOTE (bmags @ Jul 28, 2015 -> 09:55 AM) Are you sure? Avi looks like he's not an OFer, are we banking on Hawkins? Are we going to go with a power deficit of Saladino-Sanchez-micah in the infield? Catcher for future? Doesn't seem like we have plugged much. Who is being blocked that the White Sox can't wait to trade? Instead of assuming they are going to trade every prospect away, why not wait until it actually happens? I do remember how dumb trading Reed away was. Turned out it was a genius trade.

QUOTE (Dunt @ Jul 28, 2015 -> 09:33 AM) He is actually half a win less valuable than Middlebrooks as of today. If you offered Avi for Middlebrooks, SD would take the trade. Hahn is the back up QB here. An assumed star based upon nothing.

QUOTE (bmags @ Jul 28, 2015 -> 09:20 AM) Dick, many people believe Sox needed to stay patient and rebuild their young talent. Hahn has done a good job of that. JR/KW have shown to be aggressive and pushed up that timeline. We thought Hahn did so without compromising long-term talent. Turned out to be worst of both worlds. But if you believe in being patient, then you will be against the KW model (right now). Not hard to grasp. And their talented guys are still here. Semien was expendable. I really liked Bassitt but he was expendable. Ravelo is a 1b/DH with little power. They really haven't given up the future for the present at all. I see many posts saying trading Q and his team friendly contract for a hitter is a must. What I don't understand is everything you want to believe the Sox have don't correctly, you say Hahn did a great job. Anything you disagree with, well that had to be that idiot KW. Reality doesn't work that way.

QUOTE (GreenSox @ Jul 28, 2015 -> 09:18 AM) They may - honestly this looks like AA taking his last stand. and they gave up, what, one top 100 prospect for Tulo? Around here, people want to give up far more than that for players inferior to him. You mean twice+ what the Jays gave up? Good lord. The more money you are willing to pick up, the fewer prospects you will be required to give up.

The White Sox were ordered by JR to try to get competitive this season. That is documented when the article about the dinner came up. I am not a KW fan, but he actually did make many nice moves. Not every move he made was horrible. If you consider the White Sox a mess (which I don't) Rick Hahn has his fingerprints over it as well.

QUOTE (GreenSox @ Jul 28, 2015 -> 08:58 AM) Nothing mind-boggling about it. As GM, Kenny Williams has a long history of poor value trades, poor evaluation of even veteran players, and a decade of poor drafts. But most of all, there was never a consistent plan. Overapy for a vet - then give him away.No consistency. And it was when the flows from the 1988-2000 drafts expired, he had no more prospects to trade for veterans, and the losing records began to accumulate. The 2013 winter looked nothing like what Kenny Williams had done in his tenure...thus credit or blame to Hahn, however you see it. 2014....back to the philosophies of Williams. Mindboggling. KW is horrible. JR is horrible. RH, zero baseball experience before being hired by the White Sox, is trained for his position by these guys who supposedly haven't a clue. Now, he is the guy with all the correct answers. Say it ain't so Rick. It is almost as if some will shed a tear if it ever is revealed Rick Hahn made a bad baseball decision.

QUOTE (bmags @ Jul 28, 2015 -> 08:57 AM) I don't think people give Hahn a pass, but we had 13 years of watching Kenny operate largely independently, and 3 years now of Hahn...where we don't really know. So when we look at the moves, there are moves that feel like KW moves. And the worst flaw of KW was shortsightedness...and losing out on a potential dynamite arm (but we don't know) of Hoffman for 6 years in exchange for going for it when still under 500 at the end of July just seems like KW. On this board this winter when moves were made, one post I replied to said if there was ever a question who was in charge, that was put by the boards. Hahn was his own man. I actually pointed out trading prospects for a free agent to be seemed not unlike something that would be considered a KW move, but was quickly shot down. Hahn received a ton a praise all winter on here, and as soon as the team flopped, they flipped from Hahn acquisitions to KW acquisitions. If Rick Hahn has zero responsibility for any of the moves the past 3 seasons that have blown up in the White Sox face, then, if he had any pride, he would move along. That is simply not the case.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Jul 28, 2015 -> 08:44 AM) Honestly, not sure what Toronto is thinking. It's as if they want to give back some of their gains from the Donaldson move because they feel guilty. To me there is no in between with this. Tulo is either going to mash in that line up or it is going to be a total flop. In this offense starved season, at the very least, the Blue Jays will be fun to watch.

QUOTE (Bigsoxhurt35 @ Jul 28, 2015 -> 08:44 AM) KW is no idiot. I'm not giving Hahn a pass. But this isn't totally on Hahn. He has to have KW watching over things. Kenny helped engineer a World Series for the first time in 88 years. That means something to me. I have some issues with him but don't hate the guy. I love that KW will take risks and go for it because at least we're not a team that's scared to go for it. I do hope though if he does it this week, it's right and by that I mean try and get Puig without destroying things. Or even CarGo. And KW has had to have JR watching over things. Every GM has someone watching over them. The fact is, this "going for it" this season was a JR decision. Total JR decision. So who says the KW "decisions" through the years were all his? JR is 78 or 79 years old. He isn't going for a 4 or 5 year rebuild.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Jul 28, 2015 -> 08:42 AM) I honestly like the dynamic. Rick works as sort of the angel on Kenny's shoulder I'll buy that. Disagreement is not always a bad thing. If KW,RH,and JR are the 3 headed decision making monster, hopefully they don't just take a majority vote. I would think things are discussed and when decisions are made, it is done with everyone on board. If not, then Hahn needs to leave. If he is nothing but a willing puppet as some seem to suggest, why would that be the type of individual anyone would want making important decisions regarding their team? Hahn has a lot of clout, and I am sure he has changed KW's opinion several times.