Texsox

QUOTE(southsider2k5 @ May 9, 2007 -> 12:26 PM) I voted straight ticket democrat in yesterday's local Michigan City elections. No Republicans running?

Put up speed limit signs and people can still speed. That doesn't mean that speed limits are bad. Limit the hours and alcohol content and people can still get drunk. That doesn't mean limits on drinking are bad, or wrong. You do need to question those studies. On both sides and analyze what happens. If second hand smoke is not a risk, all we've done is stopped a smelly nuisance. If second hand smoke is dangerous, we've helped everyone's health. I am certain we all believe that cops no longer care about drunk driving laws. Bottom line, nice arguments, I hope you find a nice smoke filled environment, too bad it won't be in Illinois public places.

QUOTE(Cknolls @ May 9, 2007 -> 12:18 PM) At one point in time statistics showed silicon breast implants affected the health of the woman. They were banned, lawyers got rich, companies went bankrupt, people lost jobs. Silicon breast implants are now said to be safe for the woman. Who was/is right? At one point we thought asbestos was safe. Lead was a great additive in gasoline and paint. Etc. Who was harmed while silicon was off the market? When it comes to health, shouldn't we be conservative?

Fair enough. How do you answer those studies that show a significant health risk? Are you dismissing those as well? Show me the correct way to respond when statistics show something that goes against your point? Is the bar inspected by the government to assure it complies with public safety laws? Occupancy? ADA? Bathrooms? Emergency exits? That sounds like a public building that has to conform with public safety laws, including no smoking. There is rarely one solution to a problem, generally, especially in complex issues, it takes multiple solutions, all contributing a little. Using your convoluted logic, since it can't be one solution, we must not do anything. But in your world eliminating restrictions on alcohol wouldn't make a difference.

Yes! Please. While I pray that both parties are open to anyone who wishes, I am usually embarrassed to think we probably pull the lever for the same candidates. Just as I am certain that our GOP faithful here are embarrassed for some of their lesser advocates.

But how can you call a bar "private"? That is the biggest misnomer in all this. Bars are public places and subject to laws. I will agree that a true private club should be exempt from this.

QUOTE(santo=dorf @ May 9, 2007 -> 06:27 AM) That is the only even closely related to the second hand smoke and trans fats debates. Aren't they all about the government knowing what is best for you and taking away your liberty? After all. no one is forcing you to work or play in an unsafe place at an unsafe job?

QUOTE(Alpha Dog @ May 8, 2007 -> 10:31 PM) The over-reaction can be directly attributed to our over-litigous society. Just look at the VaTech reactions. Everyone looking for someone to blame. School didn't do enough. Gun laws too lax. Fire the school president. Sue the school. The schools are damned either way. Do nothing, and the kids goes Rambo, not only do people die but they get sued as well. Do something, school gets vilified for being to jumpy. Common sense isn't too common anymore, and lawyers are like Cubs fans, annoying and everywhere, so this reaction doesn't suprise me. It saddens me, but doesn't suprise me. On a side note, I wonder who ratted him out? I wonder if he/she is a bit afraid right about now. If it saves one life, we're safer from these terrorists.

QUOTE(santo=dorf @ May 8, 2007 -> 10:30 PM) You must also be in favor of New York banning trans fats as well. It's your health and your liberty, but who cares about freedom? The Government always knows what's best for us Seatbelts, minimum safety standards, restaurant health inspections, product safety laws, OSHA, it's your health and liberty.

QUOTE(Alpha Dog @ May 8, 2007 -> 05:08 PM) Hell is getting colder, because I agree with that. It seems like an obvious concept to me. But I don't demand perfection. I know that my impact will be less than most any politician running for office. When I had one of my businesses, I needed a huge, fuel guzzling 10 cylinder truck to tow my equipment. When I sold the business, I threw in the truck, as much as I loved that Texas size, get out of my way, hybrid threatening, truck, I couldn't drive it in good conscious. Was I less green before or after, I don't think so.

Let's say for the sake of discussion that second hand smoke is a problem. By eliminating it as much as possible we have a benefit to the health of everyone, cleared the air, stopped people from going home smelling like and ashtray. Now let's say it isn't a health risk and we ban it in public places. We've helped the health of smokers, cleared the air, stopped people from going home smelling like an ashtray. If we don't ban it and it's harmful, we continue to harm our health.

QUOTE(Alpha Dog @ May 8, 2007 -> 02:48 PM) Where have I ripped him for trying to be green? I said I thought his request that the secret service drive green to be a stupid one for safety reasons. Sure they make hybrid SUV's, but if my safety was an issue, i don't care how many damn dionasaurs they have to burn up to get me outta there, just do it! Tex brought up the question, 'should the government be driving green?'. Well, sure, why not? When the current vehicles are due for replacement, green should be a big consideration. But if the currently do NOT have armored hybrid SUV's to guard Obama with, will he pay for it, or should the taxpayers foot a special expense because he wants to look good? Hell, if the DO have armored hybrid SUV's, are they as good as the non-hybrid ones? Can they go as fast as they may need to with all that extra weight? Are they as safe? I think we are responding to different issues and getting mixed up. I believe we should be using existing vehicles as much as possible, and if we are buying armored vehicles, performance outweighs any green consideration. It is also not "green" to replace perfectly working vehicles and sending them to the masher. Postal vehicles, etc. should be as green as we can.

As long as we continue to hold all leaders accountable, that's a good thing. When they are on the correct path they should be praised, not condemned. Small steps by everyone makes a greater impact than one person being 100% green.

QUOTE(Y2HH @ May 8, 2007 -> 01:17 PM) For the final final time...I do not, nor have I EVER smoked. Now to russle me up some cattle. I know you don't smoke, but you have spent a lot of time making certain that people are given the choice to work and play in a safe, smoke filled, ashtray. I understand tobacco companies have an economic incentive to prove second hand smoke isn't a health risk. They also funded studies that "proved" smoking was actually good for you. But who has the economic incentive to proven it is a risk and get smoking banned? Off to rustle an engineer who knows how to use a spell checker . . . I do find it easier to side with people who wish to breath fresh air and not smell like an ashtray and potentially take better care of their health. You prefer to trust Penn and Teller's scientific expertise and have people work and play in an ashtray. I'll agree to disagree.

QUOTE(Y2HH @ May 8, 2007 -> 12:50 PM) Ok I'm done. You are 100% right and I'm 100% wrong. FYI, there are "scientific" studies by the same "scientific" community that dispute second hand smoke studies, whether you accept them as existing or not, they do. Nice way to ignore the fact that cars are generally safer, after I pointed it out, which helped equate to less casualities due to drunk driving, too. And yes, they are magicians, quite the same as I'm a network engineer in the computer sector, but my knowledge or wisdom doesn't end there, either. Kinda like the same way I assume that just because you're from Texas, you're not automatically a cowboy rancher that knows nothing outside of that sector. Drunk driving fatalities have dropped further than overall. So vehicle safety, while helping, can not fully account for all the decline. But check with noted scholars Penn and Teller to see if they agree I hope you find a suitable smoke filled environment to satisfy your cravings. And the beauty of America is laws can be enacted when people create a public nuisance.

QUOTE(Alpha Dog @ May 8, 2007 -> 11:55 AM) But armored SUV's? I would assume that the secret service already has the current SUV's in available for use. So, would Obama be willing to pay for the new vehicle(s) for his detail, or is that an expense he wants to stick the taxpayers with?Better question, should the government be buying greener vehicles, buiildings, anyways?

Wow. I'm confused,. I thought Penn and Teller are magicians. You do know there have been hundreds of scientific studies, not just the EPA regarding second hand smoke. You may not understand this, but part of a study being accepted in scientific circles is it being repeatable. Peer review is a wonderful thing. When different scientists, in different experiments, come up with the same results, it is accepted as fact. Over the decades, with more and more studies and longer term research we are seeing all sorts of health issues with second hand smoke. Some of the studies take time because they are looking at long term exposure. But choose to believe the cigarette companies if you choose. Yes a determined person can drink until they are drunk. But bottom line alcohol related fatalities have been dramatically reduced over the past 25 years. Find a study that shows an increase over the same time period. There is a difficulty in comparing, the legal definition of drunk has changed, making people who were not deemed drunk under the old laws are now deemed drunk. This increases some of the stats. If we applied the same legal threshold, the results would be even more dramatic. (in many states, someone at .09 in 1990 wouldn't be listed as drunk driving, they would in 2007) Let's see, while complaining about apples and oranges arguments you bring in magicians, Yogi Berra, and global warming. QUOTE(vandy125 @ May 8, 2007 -> 11:48 AM) The discussion seems to be narrowing it down to just bars. Isn't it more than just bars that are affected by this? Won't it also affect places like bowling alleys? I would love to be able to go out for a night of bowling and not have to breathe in that stuff as well as not end up smelling like smoke when I get home. It is not just the places that serve alcohol that are affected. It appears to be all public places.

QUOTE(Y2HH @ May 8, 2007 -> 10:47 AM) Doesn't mean I have to agree with it. In some cases, such as public health and safety, I do agree...but in others, it just comes across as over-protection. Nobody is forcing you to go to a bar, and just because you choose to do so, doesn't mean you should have the right to press your opinions on the owners. And although we regulate where and when and how much we drink...almost nobody enforces most of these until it's too late...which is why drunk driving is *still* a common occurance. So...so much for public protection, since it's such a HUGE killer of innocents. Bars have closing times. Bars are stopped from offering happy hour drink prices. Beers have alcohol content limits. So we do regulate before the fact. It is not an opinion that second hand smoke carries health risks, it is fact. Again, in America we draw the line when someones actions harm others, regardless of venue. You keep mentioning that the public *chooses* to go in bars. Are you claiming then that companies should not be required to have a safe workplace? That businesses should not be required to have a safe environment for customers? QUOTE(Y2HH @ May 8, 2007 -> 10:52 AM) That would be nice, but I don't see it cutting down on drunk driving accidents...at all. Considering bars are places we commonly have to drive too, in order to drink, the entire establishment is flawed in that when we leave...we're probably going to drive. Maybe they need to fix that fundamental flaw with "bars" too. http://www.alcoholalert.com/drunk-driving-statistics.html Wow. You don't see it cutting down on drunk driving? You are kidding right?

QUOTE(Y2HH @ May 8, 2007 -> 10:34 AM) I just don't like big brother interfearance on things like this...it hurts the businesses, badly, and these smoking bans in the suburban areas have prooven that. I'm certain you can google some studies that show it hurts business badly. There are also studies that show larger bans are better than localized ones. For business, a citywide ban is better than a neighborhood ban. A county wide ban is better than a city wide ban. A statewide is better than a county wide. Best of all is a nationwide ban. Now that bar patrons do not have a choice, it becomes drink in a bar or not. Not between smoking and non smoking bars. All establishments in Illinois are now playing by the same rules. Will this discourage some people from drinking? Possibly, and wouldn't that be a good thing? Less drunk drivers on the roads.

QUOTE(Y2HH @ May 8, 2007 -> 10:31 AM) And allow me to reiterate. I do not, nor have I EVER smoked. I just don't like being told that because something is bad for me that it's banned. I hate the word banned. Alcohol is bad for me but I like my beer, and someone drinking until they can barely see is just as hazerdous to your life as someone else smoking, perhaps even moreso. They banned books back in the day due to the messages or stories in them. I disagreed with that, too. Because in the wrong hands, knowledge is even more dangerous as second-hand smoke. That is called a straw argument. No one is banning cigarettes. No one is stopping anyone from smoking in their homes, in their cars, etc. I believe: The government has an obligation to protect workers and regulate workplaces. The government has an obligation to protect the public health and safety Drinking? We regulate when, where, and how much you can drink. Books? We also regulate content in books, we regulate who can buy certain books and magazines.

QUOTE(Y2HH @ May 8, 2007 -> 10:23 AM) You misunderstand me, in everyway possible. I'm not mad in the least. I simply don't agree with the law they passed. They also passed the Patriot Act...which I don't agree with. Just because a law or bill is passed doesn't mean I have to agree with it or like it, even if you do. You are wrong for claiming I said things that are legal should be legal everywhere. I never said that. I said that legal products should be allowed in private businesses/residences. That I said. Everywhere...I did not. So the fact it is legal has no bearing on this argument? That even though it is legal, the government does have the right to regulate when and where a legal product can be used? I thought you claimed that because it's legal, it should be allowed in the bar.

QUOTE(Y2HH @ May 8, 2007 -> 10:18 AM) I never said products are legal and should be allowed *everywhere*. I said they are legal and should be legal in private homes/establishments. So again, apples and oranges. My business is mine. You don't have to come there nor do you have to work there. Apples and oranges again. I know...you want it your way, right away...so go work at Burger King. The world doesn't revolve around you and what you want. If you don't like smoking, don't go to places that allow it. But force banning them from allowing it is, as Penn and Tellar may say...is bulls***. Private homes, fine. No one disagrees with that. Private businesses have to comply with laws. You keep making this statement. Why should laws be suspended because it's private? Every business in America is regulated. Labor laws are everywhere. And OK, I will agree that private clubs should be exempt. But public bars should not. And they must be true private clubs, not public bars masquerading as private. And the world doesn't revolve around you and your cigarette, at least not anymore.

You are wrong when you misstate facts. (Unconstitutional) You are wrong when your analogies are inaccurate. (Legal here should be legal everywhere) You are wrong when there is objective evidence. (Your business doesn't need to conform with laws) You are not wrong by stating an opinion or conclusion drawn from facts, laws, accurate observations, etc.

We've been reducing emissions in cars. We've greatly improved mine safety. Both through government regulations. No one is forcing someone in a wheelchair to work someplace, yet the ADA regulates that most businesses must comply. You bring up unconstitutional (sic), I reply it isn't even in the Constitution, you say apples and oranges You say the products are legal and should be allowed everywhere, I show where we regulate legal products all the time, you say apples and oranges. You say you should be allowed to have smoking in *your business*, I show where your business is already regulated and must have safe working conditions, you say apples and oranges. We draw the line when your freedom causes harm to others.