witesoxfan

That's what I was thinking too, which makes me think that one favors the Sox too much. Still, that's about the most efficient way you can actually deal Sale with it making sense, and that is far fetched to begin with.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Oct 14, 2013 -> 02:58 PM) All outs are not created equally. Any stat that pretends they are is flawed. Pretending that base running mistakes are somehow equal to an infield pop up is just silly. Saying it can't be quantified so therefore it can't be factored isn't good enough either. There is obviously an effect, otherwise it wouldn't be talked about as much as it does when compared to other outs. Common sense tells you that. But outright saying Alejandro De Aza is a bad base runner, as in he hurt the team, because he made a few mistakes is just as egregious. I have no problem if you say he is a dumb base runner or that he could improve and eliminate those silly mistakes. The fact is that he provided excess value on the base paths, even if that was just because of his speed.

QUOTE (Marty34 @ Oct 14, 2013 -> 02:18 PM) I've changed my mind on this, the Sox should listen to offers for Sale. Combined with the money they have to spend and the #3 pick, the package they could get in return for him could definitely jump start the rebuild. If someone calls and says they're interested in Chris Sale, you don't hang up the phone. No team should ever do that. What you do say is that it's going to be incredibly difficult for us to deal him and no matter what your proposal is, we will have to take a lot of time to contemplate it. Beyond that, I really don't think trading him for prospects is the best option simply due to the flame out rates of prospects. The most interesting trade in theory is one for Trout, because the Angels could actually use a big arm like that with their outfield depth. The problem is that you have to include more than just Sale because Trout is that good. You may be able to take a flier on a guy like Tommy Hanson, even if the Angels might DFA him anyways. So, would you guys trade Sale and Santiago for Trout and Hanson?

Everything about that summer sucked. Our family moved in August of that summer, the Sox blew a division lead in September (thanks Jose Paniagua! Ironically, blaming him is doing the exact same thing Cubs fans do to Bartman). The Cubs pulled through in the clutch, the Twins won, and both the Yankees and Red Sox won, though I believe I hated the Red Sox less at the time. It had just been an awful postseason up to that point. Then the Marlins happened, and everything was right in the world again, and then 2 years later, the Sox would win it all.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Oct 14, 2013 -> 12:33 PM) Now that would be one worth talking about. It's interesting from the Sox perspective, but the Marlins would turn it down in a second. Even with Stanton in the lineup, the Marlins' team splits were .231/.293/.335/.627. Logan Morrison and Christian Yelich were their only two competent hitters. That team was just awful offensively.

The best hypothetical trade I've seen remains Stanton for Sale, and I still don't think I'd do that.

For hypothetical purposes, we will say that the Pirates offered Jameson Taillon, Alen Hanson, Gregory Polanco, and Harold Ramirez, 4 guys considered to be pretty good prospects. Some might say that's overpaying, though I disagree. But that could flame out for the Sox too: rather than a top of the rotation starter, Taillon could be a middle of the rotation guy who just so happens to have great stuff, Hanson could prove to be merely an average to below average shortstop, Polanco could be a high average, low power guy, and Ramirez could flame out. Is that enough value for Sale? No, trading Sale is silly until he has 2 years remaining on his deal.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Oct 14, 2013 -> 11:44 AM) Which goes back to my point about the baserunning stat that shows De Aza as being a good base runner as being garbage. It's not saying he's a GOOD base runner, it's saying he created value on the base paths, which I think we can say is typically a good thing. Calling people good and bad base runners is incredibly subjective, open to opinion, and almost always going to be affected by emotion, so I try and stay away from that. Yes, De Aza maybe should have been better, but he created positive value on the base paths; No, Konerko can't help that he's slow, but he's not very good as it is and does cost the Sox runs on the basepaths.

QUOTE (GreatScott82 @ Oct 14, 2013 -> 11:30 AM) Rebuilding without Sale will be a tough pill to swallow. However, rebuilding will be MUCH easier to do if you deal a player of his caliber. His value is tremendous and the return package will be fantastic. Believe me. im a HUGE Sale fan and would hate to see him go.. but IM a White Sox fan first and I believe the longterm impact from such a deal can be very rewarding. The Mariners traded Randy Johnson to Houston for Freddy Garcia, Carlos Guillen and John Halama... You would think Hahn can pull off a deal even better than that..... You suggest that as if it's a good return. Carlos Guillen hit .264/.335/.383/.718 with the Mariners, Freddy Garcia was an innings eater but, other than an incredible 2001, was pretty much your run of the mill #3 starter for them, and John Halama was a 27 year old soft-tossing lefty who was a virtual non-prospect at the time of the deal. The fact that he pitched as long as he did was a miracle. I hope you are not using that as an example of what the Sox should get for Sale, because even getting more than that would be incredibly disappointing. If nothing else, you've established exactly WHY you don't trade Chris Sale. The hope is that you get a package like the Orioles got for Bedard or the Marlins got for Beckett, but even those deals had their weak points. Fact is, the closest the White Sox will be to legitimately competing will come with Sale on the roster. If you want to stockpile the system, then sign a bunch of guys to one year contracts and don't be afraid to trade.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Oct 14, 2013 -> 10:40 AM) I don't buy that at all. Creating an extra out is going to kill way more than a guy throwing his bad and putting his head down after a popup. I was basically stating it for argument's sake, but seeing a guy who is held to that high of esteem struggle like that and pout isn't good for team morale. I also think arguing this is MOVING THE GOALPOSTS. Numbers and examples are brought into it and suddenly we start talking about something subjective like "demoralizing the team." Nobody can say what effect that has on a team, so you are going to disagree about any and all of this. I think De Aza scoring from 1st on a double has an energizing, positive effect on the team as well. I think Alexei making an error has a huge demoralizing effect. I think Dylan Axelrod giving up 12 runs a game has a demoralizing effect. How are we going to measure each of them individually?

Met one guy, shared texts with a few others, have worked on outside projects with some, and plan on getting to Chicago one of these days for a big old meet up where we all get drunk and play bags cornhole and eat sausages

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Oct 14, 2013 -> 10:23 AM) I was actually referring to picking it up off the ground. He fumbled and kicked more balls this season than I have ever seen anyone do. Guys would get extra bases because if it bounced off a wall, De Aza very rarely would come up with it clean. What I don't understand is he wasn't like this previously, at least to the extent he was bad this year, and despite what Balta will say, it has nothing to do with spring training. I also think stupid baserunning mistakes which take you out of innings demoralize a team. Paulie can't be a better baserunner. If De Aza wouldn't be so dumb on the basepaths, he could improve his worth a decent amount. It just boggles my mind why Konerko gets a free pass. I understand everything he's done for the organization, but it seems as though the organization is considering bringing him back to have a significant role on the team when he was the biggest culprit out of anyone in the organization last year. He was terrible offensively, defensively, and on the base paths, and he single handedly cost the Sox a ton. Say want you want about guys making outs on the base paths being demoralizing, but I think seeing the Captain throw temper tantrums after popping out is just as demoralizing.

QUOTE (GreatScott82 @ Oct 14, 2013 -> 10:15 AM) I'm calling it now... Don't be surprised if Sale is traded this winter. His value is absolutely beyond high right now and who knows just how much longer he will stay healthy with his current mechanics. My question for you guys is, If the White Sox can net three top 50 prospects and two mlb level position players (or something along those lines) would you pull that trigger? You can call it all you want to, but I am going to be beyond surprised if a starter who is 24 years old, signed to an incredibly team friendly contract, and will finish in the top 10 in Cy Young balloting for the 2nd year in a row is traded, especially by a franchise that feels they are going to compete this year. They would need a package that includes, at minimim, 4 top prospects. No team wants to give that up for a pitcher that they almost certainly deem to be a health risk (regardless of whether those thoughts and fears are subtantiated or not).

QUOTE (TaylorStSox @ Oct 14, 2013 -> 10:00 AM) There's a difference between being slow and running into outs every 6 games because of boneheaded decisions. De Aza was comically bad at times. Again, the disconnect is the difference in definition. You are saying De Aza was a stupid base runner. That's fine. I'm saying he still provided positive value on the base paths - because he did. When I bring up Konerko, I say he was bad because he was terribly ineffective. He always has been. When a guy who normally hits .270/.350/.450 comes out and hits .250/.300/.425, do you say he sucks and he is one of the worst, or do you say he struggled? Conversely, when a guy who comes out and typically hits .225/.275/.325 comes out and hits .225/.275/.325, do you say he's bad at hitting, or do you say "there's a difference between bring untalented at something and making mistakes?"

QUOTE (chw42 @ Oct 14, 2013 -> 09:51 AM) The funny part is that he got like -2.1 points that game. It was -3

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Oct 14, 2013 -> 09:52 AM) Precisely, and that's what the advanced metrics are designed to catch. It's also something that's incredibly difficult to tell from just watching. The fact is that De Aza, after all was said and done, graded out above average as a baserunner this year. You can say he should have graded out much higher without those ~5-6 extra mistakes, but to say he was legendarily bad is totally off base. If there is anyone who was a legendarily bad base runner on the Sox this year, it was Konerko. He was hurt for quite a bit of the season, he was only on at a .313 clip, and he still almost cost the Sox a full win due to how poor he was on the base paths.

QUOTE (Jake @ Oct 14, 2013 -> 09:11 AM) Did you go up against me? I have all those players...but it says my opponent is knightni Ha, no, fraternity league. Sucks to be knight too. I also had David Wilson in week 1 and lost by 2 points.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Oct 14, 2013 -> 09:44 AM) Those 19 outs are balanced by 20 stolen bases. Doesn't seem like much of a balance to me. I don't see it is as a positive if you are giving your team an extra out for each stolen base you get. You can take more bases than just second on a steal though. How many times did he get from 1st to 3rd or 2nd to home on a single, or how many times did he score from 1st on a double? Those are indications of good baserunners too.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Oct 14, 2013 -> 09:07 AM) Between the bad reads and horrible and regular baserunning mistakes, I feel pretty good about those statements, especially the baserunning. He killed more innings that I can remember seeing a Sox player do ever. I think the disconnect here is how we define bad base runner. You are definining bad base runner as "stupid base runner" while others define it as "ineffective base runner." Konerko was terrible on the bases this year, but that's entirely because he's slow. De Aza actually produced positive value on the bases this year, but I'm not going to disagree that he made a lot of mistakes.

Two weeks ago I was up 40 going into the Monday night game. He had Sproles and Colston. I lost. Last week, I went up against Tony Romo, who threw for 500 yards and 5 TDs. I lost. This week, I went up against Jamaal Charles, Brandon Marshall, and Vernon Davis. I lost. This season blows

QUOTE (Jerksticks @ Oct 11, 2013 -> 04:51 PM) I guess the key is identifying which kids management gives playing time to next year. If the answer isn't "all of them from 2013" then I see no reason not to go out and at least add one more real solid piece to the core. With the new piece added and Avi already here I'd probably be satisfied with the offseason. We really need a superstar offensive player. It's that simple. Now who the f*** is that??! Andy Gonzalez

QUOTE (Rowand44 @ Oct 11, 2013 -> 04:46 PM) There's so many different Cardinal fans articles going around right now, it's pretty funny. I personally think almost all fan bases are the same. They all have their morons and their reasonable fans, it's just the ones that you encounter that sway your opinion. I don't necessarily think that's true. I think if you encounter 100 Yankees fans and 100 Mariners fans, the Yankee fans are far likelier to be chock full of douchebags and assholes, but expectations and how fans should act is propagated by the media so much any more that fans have a tendency to act as the stigma dictates they should. Every fan base is going to have dickheads and friendly fans, but there are some that are going to be worse.

He is going to run for like f***ing 500 yards this weekend

That's terrible. BTW, the Joseph Patterson I know lives in New York, New York now. It's not him.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Oct 11, 2013 -> 03:30 PM) what WHAT